Aircraft General Discussion

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

The news on the tragic Hunter crash, sadly, seems to get worse by the hour. I just hope that any new regulations regarding air shows are made by people who know what they're talking about, and are not formulated by the knee-jerk reactions of politicians. The "knee jerk" reaction seems to be coming apparent in some press reports already…..

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

It's inevitable that one of these planes is going to drop onto people eventually, low level stuff always carries an increased element of risk which is impossible to remove, then factor in the age of the kit being used and the pilots experience. Throw in the additional external environmental risks and you've got a crash waiting to happen.

Airshows are massively popular events, especially in Britain, and a source of great pride for both young and old

Unless they ban airshows completely that risk will always be a part of any airshow

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Although it was a tragic happening, what the knee jerkers will fail to observe is that the last occurrence of an air display resulting in the death of the general public in Britain, was 1952 when a "New" fighter, the DH110 broke up mid air.

Regards Ian.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Circlip on 24/08/2015 10:31:07:

Although it was a tragic happening, what the knee jerkers will fail to observe is that the last occurrence of an air display resulting in the death of the general public in Britain, was 1952 when a "New" fighter, the DH110 broke up mid air.

I've heard a first hand account of the DH110 crash, as my father was at Farnborough that day, and standing close to where the engines hit the crowd. I'm not sure he worked on the DH110, but he was at De Havillands at the time. I think the crash was at least partly responsible for a change in airshow rules, namely that it is a bad idea to be flying directly towards the crowd. I think the rules now involve the concept of a crowd line. The idea being that the aircraft is always separated from the crowd, and manoeuvres are planned such that the aircraft is moving parallel to, or away from, the crowd. That's especially important when it all goes pear-shaped.

Andrew

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Andrew is correct in respect of the performance axis relative to the crowd line.

"It's inevitable that one of these planes is going to drop onto people eventually, low level stuff always carries an increased element of risk which is impossible to remove," … NO!! you have provided both problem and answer!! If the display is for the Oooh, Aahh 'gogglers', maybe you're right but aircraft, of whatever type or age CAN be displayed through the full cleared envelope at heights that do not put the viewer at risk. As for the 'knee-jerkers', we have the Beeb's Today man Humphreys (speaking of things he knows not) talking to the main man at the Air Display organisation (incompetent and unable to connect brain and tongue) and suggesting all displays take place over the sea!! For those who haven't spotted the flaw, – "Airshows are massively popular events" and there are a very large number of boats in the UK, positioning of which as spectators would make herding cats simple by comparison. You're dealing with fallible humans and (less) fallible machines – $&!* happens!!

Having missed becoming one of these statistics by a matter of some 10' or so, many years ago, I have a personal interest.

rgds

Bill

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

As a member of the shooting community I am well aware of ill-informed media comment leading to knee-jerk legislation which achieves nothing worthwhile and makes Britain an international laughing stock. Let's just pray it doesn't happen in this case. Over the sea indeed! So we throw away the Farnborough air show which makes millions for Britain? And the countless air displays which bring huge pleasure to vast numbers of people? There are some politicians just daft enough if the ill-informed media winds them up enough. As a semi-retired journalist aged 74, I am appalled at the lack of standards in the media nowadays…

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

$NZ1200 For 20 minutes in a 2 seat P 51 D Mustang , how's that for an 80th birthday present for a Piper Cub pilot.

Ian S C. All the vintage aircraft in NZ are at the very least, maintained to a level above the original specs.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

The flack seems to be occurring already.

Apparently the CAA has announced that Vintage Jets will be limited to flypasts, and High Energy Aerobatics will not be permitted.

That appears to be before any official investigation report.

Edited By V8Eng on 24/08/2015 15:45:04

Edited By V8Eng on 24/08/2015 15:45:50

[JimmieSParticipant @jimmies]

I may be wrong but feel that all events to which the public have access which contain the possibility of 'unintended consequences' eg motorcycle road races (ie on real roads as in the IoM and Ireland) air shows etc can continue only while insurance cover at an acceptable premium is available. Each tragic incident may bring that day closer.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Airshow regulations have just gone from the sublime to rediculous and to suggest that they be held over the sea is down right stupid, imagine Old Warden doing it.

Martin P

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

If the recently announced restrictions are as announced. .TEMPORARY. .pending investigation. .well. .thats at least sensible.
My doubt is the temporary bit.

Also..when you attend such display…you might or might not accept risk. ( see the small print on your ticket)..people using a public highway..were mostly un involved. .and I doubt that risk were covered by the shows insurance.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Should the HS/BAe Hawk be classed as "Vintage" If so, that B*****s the Arrers and what about Vintage piston engine aircraft?

Given the standard of maintenance by SOME airlines perhaps flying in general should be left to the birds? Didn't seem to be the same witchunt to cancel flying operations when a 747 dropped in unannounced on the residents of Lockerbie.

Regards Ian.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Indeed…imagine grounding the battle of Britain flight?

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Andrew perfectly correct regarding the DH110.

I was there, on the same hill, the day before John Derry and the fans gathered lost their lives!

RIP

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Regarding the Hunter doing the Loop, did anyone notice his flaps were down? To me, he barely made the top of the loop, and must have lost a lot of momentum and maybe did not have enough to pull out and clear the ground. Obviously nothing can be said until the Inquiry and all the submitted videos looked at..

All a very sad episode with some consequences.

Clive

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Let's hope the Pilot recovers and is able to remember what actually happened.

Edited By V8Eng on 24/08/2015 20:46:45

[Anonymous]

Rather than rely on information from the media I find it is prudent to seek out source documents. So, from the CAA website, I understand the situation is as follows:

Hawker Hunter aircraft are temporarily grounded – presumably as there is the possibility of a technical failure

Vintage jets are temporarily limited to fly pasts at air displays over land – note this is for air displays only, there is nothing to stop a vintage jet doing aerobatics during a private flight

There are ongoing reviews and risk assessments for air displays

During lunch today I also read the CAA guidance for display pilots:

**LINK**

which, while generic, contains a lot of commonsense statements. It makes a valid point about aircraft being operated near their limits and the importance of energy management. I am not a display pilot, but I have some small insight into energy management from my competition flying in gliders. In times past the end of task was usually a line across the airfield which had to be crossed to register a finish. So of course it became normal to cross at near to Vne and as low as the pilot dared. However, the sensible pilots thought about everything in advance. The finish line is not always aligned with the runways. There are potentially a lot of other gliders around and on the ground, so your intended landing area may not be available. And if you mis-manage the energy you may end up significantly lower after pulling up than planned, which can really limit the options. You may also be going downwind across the finish line which can give a false impression of speed. If you pull too hard during the pull up you are wasting energy as the drag inceases with increasing 'g' loading. I'm sure you get the picture, it is not as simple as it looks, requires planning, and can lead to some pretty close calls if one gets it wrong.

Energy management is even more important when flying larger vintage aircraft that, compared to many modern aircraft, are often relatively underpowered.

Andrew

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

A question.
What is the definition of “vintage” jet ?.

And
How old are the Hawk jets of the Red Arrows?

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

It did occur to me that although the experience of the pilots involved in flying historic aircraft is not in question the number of hours that can reasonably be flown by the older aircraft is limited. It would be reasonable to conclude then that practice in executing the maneuvers required on a particular aircraft would be similarly restricted. Compare with Red arrows teams who fly close to daily on the same aircraft. Since the aircraft is then flown at somewhere near its limits this could be a factor in increasing the risk of pilot error. Maybe with the simulator technology around these days practice hours could be increased in the virtual world particularly with regard to correctly simulated ground terrain of the display site. This may go on already, other may know better than me, I am merely speculating here. However, this could be a way of reducing potential risk and keeping these stunning aircraft flying in something other than level flight. Tragedies remain abhorrent what ever is said but airshows do have a much greater safety record than emotion would suggest when something does go wrong. I do feel for those who have lost people dear to them.

Martin

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Despite centuries of hindsight, even "Smart" bombs still kill innocent civilians.

While simulator training is fine before risking a multi million piece of equipment to the ministrations of a novice (or expert), you NEVER get the feedback of the real thing. Wonder how many hours/days the driver of a F1 car spent in one but STILL had to be told when to brake at the first corner at the START of a race?

Regards Ian.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Hi Circlip

I totally agree simulators cannot fully replicate the reality of the real thing but my point was that maybe they would enhance what limited hours on the real aircraft were available and not replace them.

regards Martin

[Anonymous]

I live near Duxford, and regularly see Spitfires, in particular, overhead, often doing aerobatics. So I think that the pilots do fly on a regular basis. Of course there is a balance between hours flown and wear and tear, not to mention fuel cost. A lot of ex-military aircraft were not designed for a long life!

While waiting to nip off to the airfield for my biennial flight review with an instructor I've been reading the CAA guidance on ex-military aircraft on the civilian register. A couple of points struck me. First, an experienced pilot is considered to be one with more than 450 hours PIC. Good grief, that includes me! The other point was that the CAA generally require the aircraft to be maintained according to the military standards. That means that if ejection seats were fitted then they need to be operational. That was a surprise, as I'd assumed that in general ejection seats would be disabled for the civilian register. The document actually states that swept wing jets are highly unlikely to be given a Permit to Fly without operational ejection seats.

Bother, it is now raining, an hour before the BBC said, so I rather suspect I will not be flying this afternoon.

Andrew

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

The RNZAF is introducing simulator training along with the Beach T-6 Texans.

with the Hunter T-7 crash there are a number of possibilities, control failure, engine flame out, earlier hunters with 100 series Avons had this problem in this type of maneuver. Photos on the web of the aircraft at low altitude, and I think this loop would have ended with a low pass over the display area.

But we will have to wait 6 months to a year for the official report, if things work as fast in UK as they do here in NZ to get some idea of what the reason was, mechanical or human.

Ian S C ps, I presume the pilot departed the aircraft at low altitude courtecy of Messers Martin Baker.

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Ian – no the presumumption in your ps appears to be wrong. According to the media reports the emergency services pulled the pilot out of the wreckage. BBC news states that he is currently in hospital in a "critical state", ealier reports said that he'd been put into an induced coma.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I do not think he ejected and from a couple of pictures looks like it may have been an engine problem as I would have expected him to be on the power to get the aircraft to climb.

There does not seem to be much heat haze in this picture

It is all speculation until they have examined all the information.

Bob

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