Source of good HSS lathe tool blanks

[EugeneParticipant @eugene]

Hi folks,

Where can I buy good quality HSS in 1/4" square blanks?

Ive been playing around with tangential tool holders today, and been disappointed in the performance of the HSS steel bits I'm using. Even with quite modest cuts they seems to discolour and pit very readily; not a patch on the 3/8" square tools I formed from some "Poldi" HSS.

The Poldi bits can take some really meaty cuts and not turn a hair, but it takes me forever to form and sharpen one even using Harolds simple tool rest. I'd hoped the tangential set up would simplicate the job.

I note that Spear and Jackson sell something with "Eclipse" written on the side, but I wonder if it's kosher and not made in the far east from old bean tins and bicycle frames.

A couple of years I bought some ready formed HSS tools and they were rubbish too; the only good HSS tools I've ever had are those as above.

Eug

 

 

 

 

Edited By Eugene on 26/05/2018 16:05:01

Edited By Eugene on 26/05/2018 16:06:05

[EugeneParticipant @eugene]

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Try Mcmaster Carr or Cromwell tools, both industrial suppliers so one can assume their HSS is what it says, or Arc Eurotrade?

Tony

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

MSC will do Eclipse ones at about £12 a pop.

[Andrew Moyes 1Participant @andrewmoyes1]

I have found the Crobalt bits sold by Eccentric Engineering and used in their own tangential toolholders to be highly satisfactory.

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

I have started using "Stellite" tool bits in my tangential toolholders. Much more resistant to heat and wear than any HSS I had been using previously. I did try the Crobalt and that seemed OK, but then found some 1/4" square Stellite.

They turn up from time to time on a well known online auction site.

Phil

[EugeneParticipant @eugene]

Thanks lads,

I've ordered some from Ketan,

Andrew, the stuff I'm so unimpressed with is EE's original issue, albeit not Crobalt.

Eug

[JonParticipant @jon]

Glad i bought enough of the good stuff 26 years ago Eclipse Cobalt 5%, i rarely use these days.
Will cut stainless grade 316 S11 from 1/2" dia to 4.5mm dia x 3 1/2" long with just three touch ups.

Modern stuff is just junk and false economy made in china to a budget. Takes longer to touch up than take the edge off.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I found carbide best for fast "high speed" work because it's so much better at resisting the grinding action of lathe cutting, but, it's more vulnerable to shock loading

The fancy HSS derivatives are best for backgear and slower speed work because they resist torque and shock stresses better

It all boils down to each specific job

I experimented with a bit of wke 45 as well as other bits of cobalt but in comparison carbide could remove amazing amounts of material before it even needed any touching up

Edited By Ady1 on 27/05/2018 12:02:58

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Whilst it's true that I've noticed some differences between 1/4" square HSS blanks got from different sources, it's not been particularly startling. Some have seemed to suffer blunting – almost a microscopic crumbling – of the edge when used on difficult material, but only after fairly severe use.

The ones I have that appear to be best are etched with their size and grade 'M2'.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For a bit of nostalgia, and some useful info. **LINK**

https://ia80190r9.us.archive.org/15/items/EclipseCatalogueCM671969/Eclipse%20Catalogue%20CM%2067%201969.pdf

Summary of HSS grades is on p33.

MichaelG.

.

Pleased to have picked-up a new/unused hollow-ground Eclipse parting blade at today's car boot sale.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Posted by Phil P on 26/05/2018 17:24:30:

I have started using "Stellite" tool bits in my tangential toolholders. Much more resistant to heat and wear than any HSS I had been using previously. I did try the Crobalt and that seemed OK, but then found some 1/4" square Stellite.

They turn up from time to time on a well known online auction site.

Phil

I make 'one shot' tangential style holder from small nubs of stellite. I mill a notch in some hot rolled steel and braze the stellite on the end tangential style. They get sharpened by grinding the top face.

Did you know that if you get a new piece of Deloro Stellite it will have a tiny notch ground in one edge on the end. The notch is to tell you that the tool is strongest if you grind it with the notch on the top.

[Eccentric EngineerParticipant @eccentricengineer]

Hi All

Just thought I would add a couple of bits to the thread.
Eugene, If you are getting discolourisation on the tool bit it sounds more like the tool bit working temperature is too high and losing hardness.
The old 3/8" tool bits would have a lot more mass to dissipate the heat whereas the tool bits in the Diamond Holder are smaller, being 1/4" or 5/16" square. Perhaps drop the speed a bit or use some coolant to prolong tool life.

Crobalt/Stellite keep their hardness longer at elevated temperatures and that's why they work well on stainless..

The tool is only as good as the piece of HSS it's holding so the ones I supply with the Diamond Tool Holders are good quality M42 CoHSS made by Sutton Tools who are a large Australian manufacturer of industrial grade cutting tools.
Whether they are as good as the old stuff I have no idea, but that's the best I'm able to supply

Cheers
Gary

[VicParticipant @vic]

Someone gave me some broken 1/4” solid carbide milling cutters so I’ve ground these at the appropriate angle and used them in my Eccentric Tangential tool a few times. Normally though I use some old 1/4” square HSS that I bought before the Far East starting selling the stuff! Have a look at Cromwell tools, I bought some very good HSS blanks on special offer a while back.

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

+1 for MSC but wait for a postage-free day or buy some other stuff too.

I like 8% Cobalt HSS best in my tangential holders as it keeps its edge better.

Jon

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

All of my HSS blanks, and I have a few, are bought as NOS job lots off eBay.

I only buy stuff from quality manufacturers.

I have accumulated lots of old stuff, many names such as Firth Brown, Deloro, Jessop Saville, Osborn, Cleveland Momax, Eclipse, some are long gone.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

As an Apprentice part of our teaching was on the Forge. Here we did fusion of two bits of metal and then twisting as in a poker. Then we made our own lathe tools, I remember having to heat the ends to a dull cherry red and quenching and they were extremely hard tools, in fact grinding them to form was hard to do. I told the others to grind the tool to whatever form they wanted before grinding. Now, if someone has duff HSS tooling perhaps try hardening and see what happens. I wish I had a supply of HSS in the bar form we had then.

I think the hardest I have found is Deloro tooling.

Clive

[EugeneParticipant @eugene]

Gary,

Point taken.

I'm only a raw beginner yet, I'm slowly finding my way.

Eugene

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

+1 for the brand name stuff when it comes to HSS blanks.

Personal fave being chunks of S/H Cleveland Momax.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Personal fave being chunks of S/H Cleveland Momax.

That was the stuff which first drew my attention to the superiority of cobalt tooling

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

I have a 4 way tool post on my lathe, two of the stations are fitted with two eccentric engineering tangential holders one fitted with a high speed steel bit the other I made from medium carbon steel with a carbide tip l brazed on by me. In both cases I find that the quality of your tool grind finish is very important. Since I switched to a fine diamond cup wheel that gives a mirror finish my work finish has improved and the time between regrinds greatly increased.

I still find that HSS with a razor sharp mirror grind beats carbide almost every time for finishing to size, it allows you to shave down to a tenth or so where carbide will simply rub.

The carbide tip works well with harder materials that HSS will not cut and for high speed metal removal that would burn HSS.

I made my own grinder **LINK**

however any grinder that can be fitted with a table that can be angled and a diamond cup wheel will do.
Apart from the wheel accurate relief angles are very conducive to better work finish and accuracy.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

'Old-stuff better than new', 'western superior to far eastern', and 'my favourite brand-name'. Dare I suggest none of these notions are truths, and they might even be misleading?

HSS isn't a single thing and discussing 'quality' without specification is tap dancing on thin ice. Qualified engineers don't do it. There are at least eight different grades of HSS in common use. Their properties vary to make them fit for a particular purpose; hardness, heat and wear resistance, elasticity, ability to hold an edge etc. The type used to make sharp woodworking tools isn't ideal for metalwork. The type used to make twist-drills isn't ideal for making lathe knives. The type used on brass isn't ideal on stainless. And vice versa. Yes there are cheap grades, yes there are expensive grades, yes there are fakes, but mostly there are misunderstandings! HSS made in 1968 has no special magic making it superior to anything you can buy today.

Another little problem is how your HSS was heat-treated. Sometimes HSS is supplied hardened, other times annealed, ie soft. Same metal, same 'quality', entirely different properties.

As buying and using HSS is complicated, (it's easily overheated) human nature tends to fall back on experience. It's not daft for David S to buy new old stock because he knows what it is; it is daft to think the Chinese can't make M42 today.

We tend to trust vendors – for example – I don't think ArcEuroTrade say what the spec of their HSS tooling is. Whatever it is, I've found it acceptable – it does exactly what I expect of it, perhaps because Ketan makes good choices, as do other established vendors I've bought from. When I wreck a tool it's usually my fault. It's always tempting to pick up bargains at shows, second-hand, or on the web, but the chances of getting something unsuitable shoot up. There's a good chance you're taking a gamble with an unknown HSS that the seller doesn't understand either. It might be excellent for what you want, or it might be a failure. You can't generalise from the experience unless you know what you bought.

Dave

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 31/05/2018 13:51:12:

We tend to trust vendors – for example – I don't think ArcEuroTrade say what the spec of their HSS tooling is. Whatever it is, I've found it acceptable – it does exactly what I expect of it, perhaps because Ketan makes good choices, as do other established vendors I've bought from. When I wreck a tool it's usually my fault. It's always tempting to pick up bargains at shows, second-hand, or on the web, but the chances of getting something unsuitable shoot up. There's a good chance you're taking a gamble with an unknown HSS that the seller doesn't understand either. It might be excellent for what you want, or it might be a failure. You can't generalise from the experience unless you know what you bought.

Dave

Most of the HSS blanks we sell at present are equivalent to M2. We do not specify M2 for these blanks because there are miner differences between the product we sell and the defined specification of M2. For ARC, the disappointment rate is gaged in 'returns' – which is about 1 in 30. We have been buying this from the same source for about 12 years. We have started selling some M35 blanks (different source) during the past two years, and we have various parting off blades in specifications equivalent to M2, M35 (5% Cobalt) and M42 (8% Cobalt). The M35 and M42 for certain parting off blades were introduced after some experiments which were conducted by me (based on guidance from the late JS), especially for the thinner smaller width/tapered blades. More products may be introduced in this range within the next six months.

Ketan at ARC.

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