photo copying books

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

See these two links:

**LINK**

**LINK**

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Hopper on 06/10/2016 11:10:54:

Seems bizarre on the face of it, for sure. But that's the way it is. I doubt anyone ever fronted court for making a copy of their own book for their own use at home, though.

Edited By Hopper on 06/10/2016 11:16:12

Exactly, in reality, unless you upset the wrong crowd, it would be thrown out by the court for being ridiculously petty.

Michael W

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Stiff upper lip here, Liberty hall on American forums. Strange how they freely post Brit designs/plans but scream like stuck pigs if we reciprocate with theirs?

Regards Ian.

Lots of inconsistency here though. MBAS threaten hell and damnation to individuals breaking the code but seem to TOTALY ignore those making a profit via the "Flee".

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Walters on 06/10/2016 09:49:49:

…

To suggest he'd be stealing, if this were actually law, would be as draconian as medieval law. If you're going to say this extremely commonplace activity were illegal, can you actually suggest a punishment as well, to add weight to your argument, or are you afraid it would suddenly start to look very silly?

…

Edited By Michael Walters on 06/10/2016 09:55:30

Whilst I think it very unlikely that anyone would be prosecuted for copying a few pages from a book they already own, it can be an offence under both criminal and civil law.

• "Upon conviction in the magistrates' court the maximum term of incarceration in the UK for copyright infringement is 6 months and/or a fine of up to £50,000."
• "Upon conviction in the Crown Court the maximum term of incarceration in the UK for copyright infringement is 10 years and/or an "unlimited" fine."

Obviously the serious penalties are aimed at people copying and selling whole books, DVDs and Rolex watches etc. However, I think an individual could get into serious trouble by repeatedly advertising that he was deliberately copying in breach of copyright, perhaps in protest against the restrictions.

Just for laughs, here's a section from the copyright advice issued by a University Library. The last is interesting, but I've emboldened the most surprising:

DON'T:

• assume that because something is on the Internet it's free to use

• take photographs in art galleries etc. without permission

• use material where copyright ownership can't be ascertained

• use your own published material without checking who owns the copyright

• use logos or trademarks without permission

• assume that 'fair dealing' applies just because you're copying materials for educational use

It's a complicated subject.

Dave

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The librarian may have been suspicious when you told them you were and Arab sheik and were just going to improve their career opportunities.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 06/10/2016 13:04:30:

Whilst I think it very unlikely that anyone would be prosecuted for copying a few pages from a book they already own, it can be an offence under both criminal and civil law.

• "Upon conviction in the magistrates' court the maximum term of incarceration in the UK for copyright infringement is 6 months and/or a fine of up to £50,000."
• "Upon conviction in the Crown Court the maximum term of incarceration in the UK for copyright infringement is 10 years and/or an "unlimited" fine."

 

I think that just says it all really, not the idea in most minds of what justice constitues. There are people who go down for far more serious crimes with more lenient sentences than that.

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 06/10/2016 13:15:07

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

• use your own published material without checking who owns the copyright

Very true. If you have an article published in ME or MEW you retain the copyright for the CONTENT for your lifetime and fifty or so years beyond, but MyTimeMedia own the copyright for the LAYOUT AS PUBLISHED for 25 years.

So you can re-use your original content, drawings and photos as you wish, typically for blogs or books, but not the article or the text as we have edited it and re-drawings or retouched photos, without our permission (which will not be unreasonable withheld for most purposes, such as a club newsletter or a supplier using a review – naturally we don't want our copy being reproduced in a competitor magazine though!).

Where I have re-published any of my own material that has previously appeared in ME or MEW, I have always worked from my own submission NOT the article as published.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Walters on 06/10/2016 13:14:46:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 06/10/2016 13:04:30:

…

I think that just says it all really, not the idea in most minds of what justice constitues. There are people who go down for far more serious crimes with more lenient sentences than that.

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 06/10/2016 13:15:07

Very true Michael. If you can enjoy reading Victorian prose, Charles Dickens is on your side. In Oliver Twist Mr. Bumble famously says "the law is a ass" after being told in court that "the law supposes that your wife acts under your direction".

In "Bleak House" an apparently endless court case (Jarndyce vs Jarndyce) carries on throughout the story. Dickens was joking about a real inheritance dispute, Jennens vs Jennens, that had started in 1798. Dickens died in 1870 and might have been surprised to find that Jennens vs Jennens kept going until 1915. It only came to an end when all the money had been spent on legal costs.

In my opinion, it's a jolly good idea for us ordinary folk to steer well clear of the law.

Cheers,

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/10/2016 15:34:46

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Mountains out of molehills

Fair Dealing has been set out above as also has the right to private study.

The Law may be an ass, but nothing to fear here for OP.

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 06/10/2016 13:45:16:

If you have an article published in ME or MEW you retain the copyright for the CONTENT for your lifetime and fifty or so years beyond ….

So you can re-use your original content, drawings and photos as you wish, typically for blogs or books,…….

And for 50 years after you're dead at that. Can't get a better deal than that!

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 06/10/2016 18:15:00:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 06/10/2016 13:45:16:

If you have an article published in ME or MEW you retain the copyright for the CONTENT for your lifetime and fifty or so years beyond ….

So you can re-use your original content, drawings and photos as you wish, typically for blogs or books,…….

And for 50 years after you're dead at that. Can't get a better deal than that!

Are you sure that's not 70 years after death? If I ever publish anything then my Ghost will be keeping a watch on things!

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by V8Eng on 06/10/2016 19:07:30:

Are you sure that's not 70 years after death? If I ever publish anything then my Ghost will be keeping a watch on things!

Should i fear for revenge from beyond the grave when standing at the photocopier?

Michael

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Michael Walters on 06/10/2016 19:11:33:

Posted by V8Eng on 06/10/2016 19:07:30:

Are you sure that's not 70 years after death? If I ever publish anything then my Ghost will be keeping a watch on things!

Should i fear for revenge from beyond the grave when standing at the photocopier?

Michael

Oh I reckon you will be very safe, the likelyhood of me publishing anything worth copying is nil.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by V8Eng on 06/10/2016 19:17:07:

Oh I reckon you will be very safe, the likelyhood of me publishing anything worth copying is nil.

I wouldn't put yourself down, Itll be "My workshop adventures, by V8Eng Take this to a copier and i will personally cut your hands off with a blunt spoon! Yes it hurts! "

Michael W

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Hopefully I shall be too busy moving everything from storage into the Workshop (for a while anyway).

Perhaps the book would be titled "Squeezing a Quart into a Pint Pot"' or "How I Escaped from the Armchair".

Edited By V8Eng on 06/10/2016 20:21:35

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

So, 8 messages on, since the op posted his dilemma, to which is now resolved…..

And this subject is still being discussed.!!!!

Washerwomen!!?…have you all nothing better to do?

Neil, maybe you ought to erect a washing line….or close this topic from further posting….

 

 

Edited By John Rudd on 06/10/2016 21:58:55

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Or hpw many angels can dance on a photo copied page ?

Perhaps that should be a mantra for this forum ?

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by John Rudd on 06/10/2016 21:57:16:

Neil, maybe you ought to erect a washing line….or close this topic from further posting….

…. or …. 3rd option: stop twisting Rudd's arm forcing him to read the thread. He obviously doesn't want to.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by John Stevenson on 06/10/2016 22:10:39:

Or hpw many angels can dance on a photo copied page ?

Perhaps that should be a mantra for this forum ?

Well it's easy enough to calculate, all you need to do is this, and multiply the result by the number of pinheads you can fit on a sheet of copy paper:

Assuming that each angel contains at least one bit of information (fallen / not fallen), and that the point of the pin is a sphere of diameter of an Ångström (R=10exp-10 m) and has a total mass of M=9.5*10exp-29 kilograms (equivalent to that of one iron atom), we can use the Bekenstein bound[3] on information to calculate an upper bound on the angel density. In a system of diameter D and mass M, less than kDM distinguishable bits can exist, where k=2.57686*10exp43 bits/meter kg.[7] This gives us a bound of just 2.448*10exp5 angels, far below the Schewe bound.

Note that this does not take the mass of angels into account. A finite angel mass-energy would increase the possible information density significantly. If each angel has a mass m, then the Bekenstein bound gives us N<kD(M+Nm). Beyond mcrit>1/kD �3.8807*10exp-34 kg this produces an unbounded maximal angel density as each angel contributes enough mass-energy to allow the information of an extra angel to move in, and so on.

However there is uncertainty about the extra space needed to allow for certain dance steps, and uncertainty about the effects that quantum -speed dancing may have on the base material, more so for paper than for pins in this case. So:

The uncertainty relation also imposes a limitation on the dance. Since the uncertainty in position of the angels by assumption is less than the size of the point �x�R we find that the uncertainty in momentum must be �p�hbar/R, and this leads to a velocity uncertainty �v>hbar/Rm. If m= mcrit we get �v>> 8.6766*10exp59 m/s (>> c), which shows that:

(1) the angels must dance with speeds near the velocity of light in order to obey quantum mechanics;

(2) a full relativistic treatment is necessary; and

(3) that the precision of the dance must break down due to quantum effects.

This can be used to rule out certain types of dance due to their high precision requirements.

[Izack MaddParticipant @izackmadd89335]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 05/10/2016 16:40:10:

Chaps,

Copyright in the UK is rather more complicated than the answers given so far. My understanding is that a library might have taken out a license that allows copying, or it might not. The license has restrictions and, as always, you have to read the small print.

UK law also allows limited copying under "fair deal" terms. These terms are also rather restricted and you cannot assume that copying for private use is automatically OK. In particular, you are limited to copying "literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works".

Whether or not the law is applied depends on who knows what. I've got away with parking illegally many, many times, but that doesn't make it OK when I'm caught.

The answer to Naughtyboy's question: "how do i get permission?" is in the book. It says in the front piece: "All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any form by print, photography, microfilm or any other means without written permission from the publisher". The publishers address is at the top of the same page.

Do I copy pages to protect them from oily fingers? I couldn't possibly say, other than to remark that I'm not too horrified by moderate sin.

Cheers,

Dave

From when I was at uni we were told that up 20% of the book can be copied but only for personal educational use. As you are only saving the original from getting dirty. SillyOldDuffer is right the publisher is the one to give permission but will probably not even responded as it none commercial. One way around it is to photograph the pages and print the photos. You could even do that at the library as they will have no idea where you got the pictures. As for the library not having the right licence. Surely the copier is there for that very purpose.

[Anthony KendallParticipant @anthonykendall53479]

Posted by John Stevenson on 06/10/2016 10:18:11:

Read the OP again.
He's BOUGHT the book so all care and duty has been paid.
He wants to photocopy a few pages to stop the book HE BOUGHT getting crapped up.
Amazing that 5 people have 9 views and have not read the post.

Agree with John.
I think it depends on your morals and what you want it for – if you want to sell the copy then i think it's wrong.
For me, if you bought it and copy it for your own use then OK
If it is available to buy and you copy it to give to someone else – it's wrong.
If it is not available to buy and you copy it to give to someone else – it's OK.

That's my morals, not necessarily yours – and I am not saying I live up to my morals or what I do is lawful!
That said, it is very difficult to get permission and you will be lucky to get a reply. I have tried to get permission to publish on my website but no replies. I just keep copies of emails in the naive feeling I can demonstrate and show I did all I could.

[Author]

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