photo copying books

[mick70Participant @mick70]

or more precisely pages from.

went to library to copy pages from Harold Halls milling complete guide.

want to build advanced grinding rest and don't want book getting dirty so thought copy drawings prob solved.

was told not allowed to as didn't have written permission to do so.

how do i get permission?

never had prob before just explained why and been told ok.

[mick70Participant @mick70]

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

I think this is just a case of over zealousness on the part of the library assitant…most libraries nowadays don't even have real, qualified librarians so it's down to the largely ignorant to supervise stuff like this.

My understanding is that libraries have the equivalent of the 'educational licence' that allows a 'copy' to be made for general use, information, teaching and reference etc…the whole point of these laws is to stop wholesale copying in mass to bypass the normal publisher and authors rights to a fair profit for their efforts, not to penalise ordinary students and readers.

…..You need to complain to your 'County Chief Librarian',..which hopefully your county still has!

Bye the way, the drawings you need were also published in the 25 year edition of MEW earlier this year(?)

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Permission smermission. Doesn't hurt them if they don't know right?

Everybody knows you're not going to go to the trouble to photocopy stacks of paper so you can sell the clandestine cartridge quality books! It's so blatently for personal use so whoever told you, you couldn't, they're just a jobsworth.

Maybe they'll start charging for each page turn. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 05/10/2016 15:56:18

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

Yes, Micheal is right, even my local copy shop has an educational licence and I have never had a problem along with the hosts of school kids who get pages copied every afternoon.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Chaps,

Copyright in the UK is rather more complicated than the answers given so far. My understanding is that a library might have taken out a license that allows copying, or it might not. The license has restrictions and, as always, you have to read the small print.

UK law also allows limited copying under "fair deal" terms. These terms are also rather restricted and you cannot assume that copying for private use is automatically OK. In particular, you are limited to copying "literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works".

Whether or not the law is applied depends on who knows what. I've got away with parking illegally many, many times, but that doesn't make it OK when I'm caught.

The answer to Naughtyboy's question: "how do i get permission?" is in the book. It says in the front piece: "All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any form by print, photography, microfilm or any other means without written permission from the publisher". The publishers address is at the top of the same page.

Do I copy pages to protect them from oily fingers? I couldn't possibly say, other than to remark that I'm not too horrified by moderate sin.

Cheers,

Dave

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

If the book you want to copy is yours, I can't see any problem, particularly if you explain the circumstances. If the book belongs to the library, then it is right that they will not allow you to photo-copy it. As a professional writer, I would claim that photo-copying a book or magazine which isn't yours is unethical – basically stealing the writer's intellectual property. If the book is yours, then try your local newspaper office – they often have a photo-copying service. Failing that, do you have a friend with a combined printer and scanner? Personally, I don't want a lot of books I possess to get dirty in the workshop, and I often scan relevant pages.

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

Could you not simply borrow the book from the library and get the copies made elsewhere ?

If, as you say, the copies are only for practical & personal use, then I cannot see a real issue

about stealing. Surely that would only apply is one was pursuing some financial gain ?

Edited By Daniel on 05/10/2016 17:11:52

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

nb,

I sent you a private messag….

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Nb,

Did you resolve your issue with the drawings?

[mick70Participant @mick70]

Posted by John Rudd on 05/10/2016 18:12:20:

Nb,

Did you resolve your issue with the drawings?

i did thanks to a very kind young man

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Given the proliferation of cheap printers these days, nearly all of them all-in-ones with scanning capability, I'm slightly amazed that anyone goes to the library to use a photocopier any more (making all other points moot).

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

From some of the contributions above, anyone would think authors are either some sort of charity, or wrote books for fun. It may surprise some people, but professional writers write for a living. I am sure no-one who contributes to this forum would steal another man's pay packet, yet copying a book, in my mind, is just about as immoral. No, if you need the information contained in a book, then either buy it or borrow it from a library. Grumpy old man's rant over!

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Mike,

While I agree with your sentiment re authors not being a charity etc….your reply is a very high handed view of the world.

I dont see anything immoral or otherwise of someone borrowing either my copy or a library owned copy and using the infornation for their own ends….maybe my moral compass needs recalibrating?

I think they call it 'lending a friendly hand'…..isnt that what this forum is about ? Helping others ?

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

John,

I take your point, and maybe I was a little high-handed. Of course, "lending a friendly hand" is what this forum, Model Engineer, and Model Engineer's Workshop are all about. However, as a professional writer myself, I do get annoyed when I find that my work has been copied without my permission. Perhaps I shouldn't get on-line before I've had my breakfast?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by John Rudd on 06/10/2016 08:44:12:

Mike,

While I agree with your sentiment re authors not being a charity etc….your reply is a very high handed view of the world.

I dont see anything immoral or otherwise of someone borrowing either my copy or a library owned copy and using the infornation for their own ends….maybe my moral compass needs recalibrating?

I think they call it 'lending a friendly hand'…..isnt that what this forum is about ? Helping others ?

I rather support Mike on this one. If you deprive a man of the fruits of his labour by 'lending a friendly hand', isn't that just stealing? After all you are taking the bread out of the mouths of his children.

Consider a banknote. It's a token representing a monetary value backed by a national bank. It's their token, not valuable in itself and, although you may have given value to get it, you do not own it. Rather you have the right to exchange the token for the value it represents.

This means it's not OK to borrow other people's banknotes without permission, it's not OK to copy banknotes, and it's not OK to modify them. I suggest the intellectual value contained within a book is similar, and that the author deserves his reward.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm sure your moral compass is every bit as good as mine.

Dave

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

"Fair dealing" for private study or research is one of the exceptions in the UK's Copyright, Designs and Patents Act which allow copying of copyright protected material without the permission of the copyright owner. The concept is not defined in the legislation, but the underlying idea is that the copying should benefit the individual or society without harming the interests of the copyright owner.

The proportion of the work that is photocopied must not be “unfair” in terms of its impact on the copyright owner. There are no defined limits, but the amount that may be copied is usually accepted to be:

• One complete chapter or extracts of up to 10% of a book.
• One article from an issue of a journal or a periodical (e.g. a newspaper).
• Up to 10 pages of a poem, short story, or other short literary work, taken from a volume of short stories or poems.
• Up to 10% (maximum 20 pages) of a short book, report or pamphlet

Private study of a "copy" in your workshop appears to be well covered.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

In my mind, photocopying a few pages would be about as immoral as getting a piece of tracing paper and doing it yourself or taking a rubbing of the church murals.

To be actually stealing, he'd need to nick it. You can't get round that. Like i said before, he can't benefit commercially out of copying a few pages.

To suggest he'd be stealing, if this were actually law, would be as draconian as medieval law. If you're going to say this extremely commonplace activity were illegal, can you actually suggest a punishment as well, to add weight to your argument, or are you afraid it would suddenly start to look very silly? Can you imagine what the police would think of that? 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 06/10/2016 09:55:30

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

My wife and I worked in fields related to copyright and libraries respectively for many years, so I can tell you this:

Under the copyright law, you may copy part of a book for research purposes. "Part" is often defined as one, maybe two chapters, or maybe 20 per cent, but is not specified in the law.

"Research purposes" includes any private individual researching for his own private purposes. You do not have to be a university professor or journalist or any other kind of professional researcher to make copies for research. You do not need to prove or disclose the nature of your private research.

The copyright law applies to all "literary works" as posted already, which means all printed matter, not just Shakespeare or Irvine Welsh etc.

But libraries can make their own rules, based on whatever whims please them. And increasingly poorly trained staff (most are not actual librarians these days) often get confused or can't be bothered sorting out what's what and just decide to not allow copying at all. Which makes you wonder why they would have a copy machine at a library.

You should take the issue up with the head librarian. They are falling down on the job if they are failing to allow patrons to pursue private research at their library. If they are in doubt, suggest they check with their professional association, CILIP (Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals.)

[mick70Participant @mick70]

Posted by Mike on 06/10/2016 08:36:11:

From some of the contributions above, anyone would think authors are either some sort of charity, or wrote books for fun. It may surprise some people, but professional writers write for a living. I am sure no-one who contributes to this forum would steal another man's pay packet, yet copying a book, in my mind, is just about as immoral. No, if you need the information contained in a book, then either buy it or borrow it from a library. Grumpy old man's rant over!

the book is mine bought it specificaly for the grinding rest plans.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Read the OP again.

 

He's BOUGHT the book so all care and duty has been paid.

 

He wants to photocopy a few pages to stop the book HE BOUGHT getting crapped up.

 

Amazing that 5 people have 9 views and have not read the post.

 

Ooops Naughty boy posted whilst I was having a rant

Edited By John Stevenson on 06/10/2016 10:19:17

[JAParticipant @ja]

The first thing I do after buying a set of engineering drawings or model drawings is to copy them. Almost always they carry a copyright statement such as "Reproduction for any purpose whatsoever without written permission is strictly prohibited". Am I breaking the law or just being sensible?

Both, I suspect.

JA

[VicParticipant @vic]

We had a similar issue where I used to work. They wanted further copies of a book that was out of print. The copyright owner demanded and got £1 per copy for each copy made on top of the copying costs. Many books are covered by copyright and can have portions copied provided you have a licence. Some books though are not part of the scheme and cannot be copied without express permission, licence or not.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Any document produced by an artist, designer or author is covered by Copyright which gives them ownership and control over copying and usage from the moment they create it. In most of the world they don't have to register their ownership, though they do in some places like the USA (I think). They own it for their lifetime and their estate has rights as well. They can license people to use (ie read) or even copy it, and if you buy an item you get an implied licence to read and use it (but not normally to copy it, though there are legal exemptions for "fair usage" I believe – e.g. you might want to copy some pages of a recipe book to use in the kitchen). But the author (or the person or company to whom he has assigned or sold his rights) can specify what rights other people (ie you) have. Copyright was originally defined in the 17th century to protect engravers against having their works ripped off and sold by people who didn't create them. For understandable reasons no one putting time and effort into creating a work wants other people profiting from it unless the author can control it (e.g. by getting a royalty).

Some things (like open source software) you can copy and distribute freely, but this will be covered in a licence document somewhere.

As far as I know breaching copyright is not a criminal offence, the holder has to take you to court and claim damages, just as for patent infringement. In practice if you make a copy for your own use so you don't get the originals covered with suds and oil I doubt anyone would object, as you have paid for a copy anyway, assuming you aren't going to start making and selling lots of copies.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by John Stevenson on 06/10/2016 10:18:11:

Read the OP again.

He's BOUGHT the book so all care and duty has been paid.

He wants to photocopy a few pages to stop the book HE BOUGHT getting crapped up.

 

Although, it makes no difference if the book belongs to the OP, or to the library, or to the Queen of Sheba. Copyright law treats it all the same. When you buy the book, you do not buy the copyright to the intellectual property. That still resides with the author. All you buy is ONE printed copy of the copyrighted intellectual material. You don't buy the right to make a second complete copy of the author's intellectual property. (But you can legally make partial copies as described above.)

Seems bizarre on the face of it, for sure. But that's the way it is. I doubt anyone ever fronted court for making a copy of their own book for their own use at home, though.

Edited By Hopper on 06/10/2016 11:16:12

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