Not a “modeller”!

[John BillardParticipant @johnbillard11913]

I hope this is the right place to air a minor sore point. That is the description "modeller" for ME readers as in the latest ad for the next issue. We are engineers, not practicing in "modellers" clay, nor are we on a cat walk!

This complaint goes back a long way as I have read that old LBSC refused to use the term "model" preferring the word "miniature".

Kind regards to all – including the editor!

John B

[John BillardParticipant @johnbillard11913]

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Since a model is a representation of something, and computer modelling and people who do it are computer modellers is a term in VERY common usage, I can’t say it’s something I personally lose sleep over. Language evolves.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi John Billard

I agree with your thoughts.

The last time I made a model was in my pre teens…. Soon after that I made real objects in my workshop that started with a box of tools ….a few of which I still have.

While I respect and am in awe of the truly magnificent objects made by engineers making models. I am not one of them, The reason I only subscribe to MEW not ME is my lack of interest in making models for models sake.

No I am not a modeller. I am an engineer. I do make working machinery. Yes I can make 3D CAD drawings some might say models of machinery. But that is only a tool to aid design and manufacture. The same way a prototype is not a model it is just a design step.

I must admit I am somewhat irked by the M in MEW. It should be simplified to the more general and in my view appropriate "Engineers Workshop". Why use a title that suggests the magazine focuses on model making which it does not.

Regards
John

[S.D.L.Participant @s-d-l]

Posted by John Billard on 23/08/2014 11:43:19:

I hope this is the right place to air a minor sore point. That is the description "modeller" for ME readers as in the latest ad for the next issue. We are engineers, not practicing in "modellers" clay, nor are we on a cat walk!

This complaint goes back a long way as I have read that old LBSC refused to use the term "model" preferring the word "miniature".

Kind regards to all – including the editor!

John B

The magazine has been called Model Engineer for decades probably since the good old days whenever that was. I much prefer the term Scale Model when talking about a scaled model of a prototype. A model maker used to be one of the top trades in many companies. miniature suggests to me dolls houses etc and reminds me of steam fairs and the miniature parade with the explanation that whitworth threads live on as camera tripod mounts when it has been UNC for years.

it was natural when MEW was spun off from model engineering to call it Model engineers workshop to try and keep the original readers. Most of the famous old names, Thomas, Radford, Etc etc. We're making tools to improve there models.

Since the spin off others have come in, some such as the famous Sir John (I want my 2 quid back) have brought a whole new range on tools customised for home workshop use through Arc and others. So things evolve and change but I don't expect the publisher to play with the brand name, remember Royal Mails new name??

Steve

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

Naughty boy Steve! not been paying attention! It's 3 quid now.

Cheers Derek.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by John Billard on 23/08/2014 11:43:19:

This complaint goes back a long way as I have read that old LBSC refused to use the term "model" preferring the word "miniature".

Does that make me a miniature engineer? I know I'm small but …..

Russell

[IanTParticipant @iant]

…perfectly formed Russell?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> Why use a title that suggests the magazine focuses on model making which it does not.

Only yesterday I had a message complaining about non-modelling engineering in MEW!

The name reflects the origin of the magazine. Changing it is a major step, and there are risks as well as benefits.

Neil

Who once changed the name of an organisation because of the 'negative' connotations of the word 'urban'. Ten or fifteen years later 'urban' is even being added to the names of foods to make them more appealing :-/

[D.A.GodleyParticipant @d-a-godley]

Neil ; since you seem constantly to be at odds with the Title, and wish to widen its apeal beyond the remit, I fail to understand why you took on the job.

I am sure you will have studied all of the past issues, will have appreciated their content and its relevence to Model Engineering ( Miniature ,Scale , or whatever, but Engineering less than full size), so what is it that drives you to feel you have earned the right to suggest changing its Name and content after such a very short time.

There are other specialist magazines on the market catering for motorcycles, cars, or whatever other theme you like to mention, I suggest you allow them to do their thing and keep to what this magazine do'es best , otherwise it may be better if you went to Edit one of them !.

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

Whatever we make large or small we as 'hobbyists' derive a great deal of satisfaction that we have made something from nothing and I as a novice ( at 56) take great satisfaction that I am part of something that is shared by others skilled or not.

Brian

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

I reckon that what can be the very high costs involved in something like a name change would be better spent on content, or even a price reduction / freeze.

Well that's my two pennyworth on the subject!

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

When the magazine was founded 'Model' still had connotations of its earlier meaning – namely 'an exemplary example of ' something. Hence 'model village' 'model factory' etc not in miniature but full size set up by great Victorian philanthopists to show other industrialists how it should be done. Alongside this a miniature or model might be made to show the artisans who could not read drawings or written instructions how to do the work.in full size.

[Anonymous]

Posted by D.A.G. on 23/08/2014 21:08:24:

……….( Miniature ,Scale , or whatever, but Engineering less than full size)…………

I think you will find that the dictionary definition of model does not exclude models larger than full size.

Andrew

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 23/08/2014 23:28:35:

I think you will find that the dictionary definition of model does not exclude models larger than full size.

.

Nor does it exclude models equal to full size

MichaelG.

[Martin CottrellParticipant @martincottrell21329]

Posted by D.A.G. on 23/08/2014 21:08:24:

Neil ; since you seem constantly to be at odds with the Title, and wish to widen its apeal beyond the remit, I fail to understand why you took on the job.

I am sure you will have studied all of the past issues, will have appreciated their content and its relevence to Model Engineering ( Miniature ,Scale , or whatever, but Engineering less than full size), so what is it that drives you to feel you have earned the right to suggest changing its Name and content after such a very short time.

There are other specialist magazines on the market catering for motorcycles, cars, or whatever other theme you like to mention, I suggest you allow them to do their thing and keep to what this magazine do'es best , otherwise it may be better if you went to Edit one of them !.

With respect, I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick with Neil's post. The way I read it was that he was saying that the name of the magazine "……reflects the origin of the magazine.", i.e a spin-off from Model Engineer magazine. He also pointed out that changing the name might not come without risks. Hardly the words of someone hell bent on changing the name of the magazine as you seem to be suggesting.

Whether you like it or not, and certainly not as a result Neil's tenure of the editorial seat, the magazine has a readership with a much broader range of " engineering " based interests than its sister magazine. In particular restorers of vintage agricultural equipment, cars, commercial vehicles, motorcycles etc. read the magazine for the benefits that engineering workshop type articles can bring to their chosen hobbies and may have no interest whatsoever in becoming a "model engineer". As I see it, you can either move with the times and embrace the wishes and interests of those who pay their money to buy the magazine or you can remain a member of the "Flat Earth Society" afraid to go forward in case you fall off the edge!

Regards Martin.

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Martin Cottrell on 23/08/2014 23:36:03:

….. or you can remain a member of the "Flat Earth Society" afraid to go forward in case you fall off the edge!

 

Rather a derogatory notion of people who don't happen to share your point of view.

Not necessarily in the publishing field but more than one company has gone out of business while trying (unsuccessfully) to appeal to a new demographic and alienating their existing customer base in doing so.

Edited By Bandersnatch on 24/08/2014 01:58:41

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

To throw another spanner in the works, with my tongue slightly in my cheek, the continual use of the term "Engineer" to describe a person who makes things out of metal, floats my boat. To me that person is a machinist, fitter, sheetmetal worker etc. An Engineer is someone with a Degree in an appropriate discipline, he or she may well practice the art of machining, fitting, sheetmetal working etc etc, but they are also capable of doing the various "Engineering" things, like stressing, complex calculations etc etc.

I've also always looked on a "model" as some sort of three dimensional reproduction of something else, the model is usually smaller than the original, but need not be. So for instance a 1/4 scale model of a Rolls Royce Merlin engine could (in my book) be described as a "model", despite the fact that it would probably take two people to lift it up. However a 2.5cc FAI class team race engine is a full size engine, small admittedly, in many eyes miniature, but undeniably full size as the regulations limit the capacity to 2.5cc.

Yes I have been called a pedantic old barsteward on several occasions

cheers

Bill

[Raymond Sanderson 2Participant @raymondsanderson2]

I love this statement "

Mission Statement

To inspire personal, intellectual, and creative growth in children by means of hands-on engineering projects, and to promote resourcefulness, troubleshooting, and a practical understanding of physics.

Learn More »"ty"

This one is even more I feel in the statement on this page

Is this argument about status or lack of it?

I have neither!! For I am now retired on medical grounds.

Now this is my Hobby among many others which cross over.

In my life time I have met and learnt from many who were regarded as engineers in a variety of fields. Some were what I class as suit n tie engineers others hands on down and dirty many willing to pass on their knowledge and practical skill if I was willing to watch listen or even participate.

Yes there are those who safely guarded the secrets being afraid for what ever reason known to them.

Across the board I have witnessed Modeling of what they were to work on in another form be it a building, engine or idea at home as well as in the workplace, even some of their failures.

As a young boy wide eyed with excitement at seeing steam rollers I my street in Stanley UK or the mines and gear at which my dad and grandad's and uncles worked lite a spark it glows still and often bursts into a flame. This is called passion it raises my heart beat, my mind goes into a whirl of thoughts and ideas and possibilities still even with modern technology.

My point being would a name change to MEW or ME change that NO.

I think the question should be would it change the readers who buy the magazines ideal of it or whats inside???

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'm sure Neil wil post a reply but you may have to wait a couple of days as he may not be able to look into the forum until mid week.

J

PS. I though the possibility of a name change was driven by the large number of people asking for it to be changed to better reflect the current content, not Neil's personal vision for the mag.

[S.D.L.Participant @s-d-l]

Posted by Bill Pudney on 24/08/2014 02:42:17:

To throw another spanner in the works, with my tongue slightly in my cheek, the continual use of the term "Engineer" to describe a person who makes things out of metal, floats my boat. To me that person is a machinist, fitter, sheetmetal worker etc. An Engineer is someone with a Degree in an appropriate discipline, he or she may well practice the art of machining, fitting, sheetmetal working etc etc, but they are also capable of doing the various "Engineering" things, like stressing, complex calculations etc etc.

cheers

Bill

The distinction is if they can do the calculation and analysis not if they have a Degree. I stopped my education at HNC as by then I was married and had a mortgage. I currently spend a fair amount of my time developing sizing tools for our equipment based on the results of validation reports. These reports are usually done by Engineers with masters or PhDs yet still I keep finding them full of errors.

The degree only proves that they are clever enough to pass the test not give them an automatic right to engineer staus. Having started off in a Drawing office where all the Designers were HNC / HND and doing all the design and stress calculations, whilst the Engineers sat in a separate office as project managers and couldn't organise a Pi$$ up in a brewery.

Steve

I Like the name model engineers workshop.

if there is so many motorbike and car fans that want garage articles why haven't they got there own magazine?

[MAX THE MILLERParticipant @maxthemiller]

There's been much discussion in this thread about the meaning of the words "model" and "engineer", but what about the meaning of the word "workshop". Nowadays one hears of theatre workshops and other workshops to do with the arts.

When I was working I remember being sent on a "Total Quality Management Workshop". It was all "The Emperor's New Clothes" type stuff. I resisted the temptation to say that workshops should contain hand and machine tools used to make physical objects. Had I done so I suspect I'd have been ridiculed for the rest of the week and presented with an oil can.

Today workshops seem to be generally thought of by Joe Public as places where motor vehicles are repaired, but "garage" is a more common term. Most other stuff can't be economically repaired.

"The Home Workshop" might be a better title for MEW, but it doesn't suggest working metal with machine tools.

My late father started out on Model Engineering as a hobby and made a couple of steam engines. Then he discovered MEW and started making tools which never got used to make anything else apart from more tools.

Edited By MAX THE MILLER on 24/08/2014 11:05:09

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Sorry Bill

Your understanding differs from the dictionary definition of "Engineer" :-

ENGINEER

1 A person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures.

2 A person qualified in a branch of engineering, especially as a professional: eg. an aeronautical engineer

3 A person who controls an engine, especially on an aircraft or ship.

( but, as I've said before, what's in a name!)

Regards

Norman

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Posted by S.D.L. on 24/08/2014 10:23:10:

Snip/

. . . whilst the Engineers sat in a separate office as project managers and couldn't organise a Pi$$ up in a brewery.

Steve

Snip

Don't mind admitting I fell into that group after qualifying.

It took me years of experience, including being in charge of a DO, before I could even think of describing myself as 'An Electrical Engineer'.

Unfortunately the name 'Engineer' has been so 'bastardised' and degraded over the decades, it's become pretty meaningless, in this country at least.

Geoff – Red Bull in action! Well I do need to get energy from somewhere for goodness sakes

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

I have no wish to take odds with any opinion already expressed in this thread.
Here’s my opinion.

I have made in card or paper models of archimedian solids.
Probability shells for atoms. (peel models).
Boats

All for a purpose behold a table ornament.

I make models smaller than the “real” thing..sometimes smaller to save time/cost ( a1foot model of athirty foot boat )
Sometimes bigger …if the atom is too small model it large enough to see…
I generally have no intrest in making copies ( larger or smaller than) of objects that teach me nothing….
I might model part ( say the valve gear) of a loco but don’t want the whole thing..
Weather I model in voxcels or wood or plastic or brass or card…doesn’t matter..The purpose is generally the same..to in form

Any way thats my purpose.

[Author]

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