New hobby lathe for retired engineer?

[MadMikeParticipant @madmike]

I guess that after all this discussion it would help to move things along, and hopefully allow people to make alternative suggestions if we knew your budget. The sort of spec you have identified almost certainly does not exist in the Chinese mini-lathe market. Remember that Ketan, who sells fine machines, has openly turned away your business because of your spec which then may actually exceed your expectations. So how much do you want to spend?

It occurs to me also that if we knew roughly where you are located then some, including me and I suspect my friend Chris Evans, may be able to let you see their alternatives. I do not have a lathe as big as Chris's but it will cope with a 10 inch diameter swing. It is a Myford 254S and is far superior in every respect, in my opinion, than the traditional ML7 etc Myford's and every Chinese mini-lathe on the market. I live in Leicestershire and less than an hour from Chris. So when this lockdown is over, and you are close to the East Midlands, come and visit and see what can be done in regard to motorbike parts. HTH.

[Fred Bloggs 3Participant @fredbloggs3]

Thanks a lot all. I am nothing if not realistic about this stuff. Before I came here I knew my ideal spec machine did not exist for about a £1000-ish. Which is in fact why, being impressed browsing the forum, I joined and asked the question. The feedback has mostly been very helpful even if if some of the posts remind me of the 1970's conversations – "I am buying a new bike, I think a Honda 500/4 or a Suzuki T500". Mates down the pub – "No, you don't want a Honda, you want a BSA". Anyway, to answer MadMike, I am near Manchester. As I already said, I do not expect much beyond simply being able to do what I explained. Wheel spindles, yoke spindles, sundry spacers, every now and then swing a set of fork yokes to bore. Even a piece of "cr*p" Chinese machine tool "should" be able to meet my needs. I'm not looking for anything capable of building space rockets. The formerly mentioned Clarke CL430 is 99% perfect. If I can get one at a 20% discount, it's even in budget. If there is something else out there that can do what that mahine (on paper) can do for around about that kind of money, I'm all ears. The 1% of stuff that CL430 type machine tool couldn't do, I'd get a mate to do it. As I said before, compromise is the name of the game. Budget v Capability. If that circle cannot be satisfactorily squared, then not buying a lathe at all is still an open option.

Thanks again fr the ongoing support, it's highly appreciated. It's been really helpful being here.

FB

Edited By Fred Bloggs 3 on 06/05/2020 02:18:44

[RedsetterParticipant @redsetter]

You clearly know your way around machine tools. You can probably make a CL430 work for you, but as others have suggested, go and have a good look at one before getting too enthusiastic about it. There must be plenty of secondhand ones out there which haven't had much use and can't be worth a lot, so that might be an option.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Fred Bloggs 3 on 06/05/2020 01:55:27:

….., every now and then swing a set of fork yokes to bore. Even a piece of "cr*p" Chinese machine tool "should" be able to meet my needs. I'm not looking for anything capable of building space rockets. The formerly mentioned Clarke CL430 is 99% perfect.

You will only be able to bore the fork yoke central hole in that lathe, not the two outer holes that the fork legs fit into. To do them you will need a lathe with at least a 16" (406mm) diameter swing, about 100mm more than the CL430's 305mm.

And that's for a pair of spindly old 7" centre-distance forks off a drum brake model. Sizes go up rapidly as front ends got wider in the 1970s to fit disc brakes, double discs and then wider tires.

Unless of course you bolt the yokes to the cross slide with an angle bracket and mount a boring head on the lathe spindle. But to do that you need a slotted cross slide table, like a, err, um … Myford.

Overall, it's a job best done in a milling machine anyway. So there is your next machine tool to look for.

 

 

Edited By Hopper on 06/05/2020 07:09:56

[Fred Bloggs 3Participant @fredbloggs3]

Thanks for the suggestion of a second hand CL430, yes, if they are cr*p there will be plenty hardly used ones out there cheap!

Now forgive me, here. In the olden days, Hopper, lathe swing was radius from spindle centre to bed. Often with a gap (removable section to increase swing). So, I need a 250mm swing (radius) to bore fork yokes. The CL430 305mm "swing" is not radius then, it's diameter? In other words, in my understanding that is 152.5mm, swing not 305. If that's true, then, no I cannot bore yokes on it. Thanks for the input.

Cheers.

FB.

Edited By Fred Bloggs 3 on 06/05/2020 07:21:22

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

It's all marketing hype. They like to quote the larger American spec for swing, which is the diameter. And then the model number of the lathe is the lateral distance between centres which is larger again at 430.

That CL430 is only 2-foot long overall. (600mm)

To get a 16 or 18 inch diamter swing lathe to do yokes you are up into the industrial sizes of machinery and well beyond the small hobby stuff. But they will have a hole up the spindle you can poke your arm through.

 

Edited By Hopper on 06/05/2020 07:32:09

[Fred Bloggs 3Participant @fredbloggs3]

Thanks Hopper. That makes perfect sense now. It looks like I will have to get a mate to finsih bore yokes for 50/54mm USD forks. I appreciate the time spent answering my dumb questions. But I last used a lathe >40 years ago.

FB.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Fred Bloggs 3 on 06/05/2020 07:18:23:

Thanks for the suggestion of a second hand CL430, yes, if they are cr*p there will be plenty hardly used ones out there cheap!

Now forgive me, here. In the olden days, Hopper, lathe swing was radius from spindle centre to bed. Often with a gap (removable section to increase swing). So, I need a 250mm swing (radius) to bore fork yokes. The CL430 305mm "swing" is not radius then, it's diameter? In other words, in my understanding that is 152.5mm, swing not 305. If that's true, then, no I cannot bore yokes on it. Thanks for the input.

Cheers.

FB.

Edited By Fred Bloggs 3 on 06/05/2020 07:21:22

Noo. Centre height is the distance from spindle centre to bed. Unless you are older than I am! Swing is a diameter and, as you rightly stated, a gap bed has a larger swing within that gap than approx twice the centre height.

Swing is usually quoted as twice centre height, but as ways generally have some separation the true swing is likely more than that. I suggest you re read my post of around 10 o’clock yesterday.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

No worries. You are better off doing yokes on a milling machine to ensure precision location of the holes using its XY table or digital readout anyways. For modern USD forks you will need a 20" swing diameter or more on a lathe. Getting up there.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Hopper on 06/05/2020 07:27:38:

It's all marketing hype. They like to quote the larger American spec for swing, which is the diameter. And then the model number of the lathe is the lateral distance between centres which is larger again at 430.

That CL430 is only 2-foot long overall. (600mm)

 

Think you are looking at the wrong machine, the CL430 is quoted as 430mm between cts and 300mm swing (150 ctr ht) and is 1100mm long

Though unless your fork legs are very close together you will want more than 300mm swing , quite possible to mount the work on the cross slide and us ea between ctrs boring bar for them.

 

Edited By JasonB on 06/05/2020 07:48:37

[Fred Bloggs 3Participant @fredbloggs3]

Thanks not done it yet and Hopper, your input is duly noted. And yes, in the early 70's lathe swing was definitely always radius, never diameter.

FB

[Fred Bloggs 3Participant @fredbloggs3]

Thanks Jason B, I need a 250mm radius to bore the yokes which I see thse days is considered 500mm swing. Very clearly I am not going to get a machine that will do that. My understanding has come a long way the last 24 hours.

FB

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Posted by Fred Bloggs 3 on 06/05/2020 07:49:53:

Thanks Jason B, I need a 250mm radius to bore the yokes which I see thse days is considered 500mm swing. Very clearly I am not going to get a machine that will do that. My understanding has come a long way the last 24 hours.

FB

Can we see a picture of a Yoke?

It sounds like a milling machine job with a boring head.

If the boring head has a small battery ,rc and servomotor , it can be adjusted on the run

[Fred Bloggs 3Participant @fredbloggs3]

Purely random selection from google but a good picture. Typically, the top and bottom yokes are 6061 or 6082 alloy. Typically the centre stem hole is around 25mm and the fork holes are anywhere between 40 and 54mm diamter. Thickness anywhere between 20 and 30mm. Thank you so much for your interest Niels.

https://www.motolanna.com/ourshop/prod_3199050-Yoke-Set-Billet-CNC-All-Alloy.html

Edited to add – the 7075 referred to on that page will be the steering stem in the centre.

FB

Edited By Fred Bloggs 3 on 06/05/2020 08:04:10

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Fred Bloggs 3 on 05/05/2020 08:59:59:

Posted by JasonB on 05/05/2020 08:08:15:

To get that 250mm swing and 30mm spindle bore you would have to start looking at a WM290 from Warco or similar siz emachine.

A WM 250 would just give the swing but a WM280 actually has a 240mm dia faceplate with a little room to spare, both these will pass 1" through the spindle

Edited By JasonB on 05/05/2020 08:21:11

Nice budget busting machines. I have looked at the Warco range, they are nice. I very likely have to decide where to compromise, budget versus capability. If I can get 98% of what I want then I will compromise on capability before budget.

FB

Another vote here for the WM250V. The powered fine crossfeed is especially useful for milling/flycutting with a vertical slide and has put back my plans to buy a mill several times now. Depends on what you're gonna do, of course – I don't do M/C stuff at present.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by JasonB on 06/05/2020 07:46:09:

Posted by Hopper on 06/05/2020 07:27:38:

It's all marketing hype. They like to quote the larger American spec for swing, which is the diameter. And then the model number of the lathe is the lateral distance between centres which is larger again at 430.

That CL430 is only 2-foot long overall. (600mm)

Think you are looking at the wrong machine, the CL430 is quoted as 430mm between cts and 300mm swing (150 ctr ht) and is 1100mm long

Though unless your fork legs are very close together you will want more than 300mm swing , quite possible to mount the work on the cross slide and us ea between ctrs boring bar for them.

Edited By JasonB on 06/05/2020 07:48:37

LOL, right machine, wrong dimension. I read it as 1100 high including stand. But looking at a YouTube video of the CL430 I see it is comparable (ish) size to a Myford but with the common Chinese trick of lifting the spindle up a couple of inches to increase the swing. This results in that skyscraper tailstock and the very thick carriage with thick toolpost perched up on it. Result is a narrow bed relative to tool height. Inherently unstable and unlikely to provide aerospace-level results when taking a cut. But probably good enough for what the machine is designed to do.

Either way, it's not going to turn out work like custom fork yokes.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Fred Bloggs 3 on 05/05/2020 08:59:59:

Posted by JasonB on 05/05/2020 08:08:15:

To get that 250mm swing and 30mm spindle bore you would have to start looking at a WM290 from Warco or similar siz emachine.

A WM 250 would just give the swing but a WM280 actually has a 240mm dia faceplate with a little room to spare, both these will pass 1" through the spindle

Edited By JasonB on 05/05/2020 08:21:11

Nice budget busting machines. I have looked at the Warco range, they are nice. I very likely have to decide where to compromise, budget versus capability. If I can get 98% of what I want then I will compromise on capability before budget.

FB

Another vote here for the WM250V. The powered fine crossfeed is especially useful for milling/flycutting with a vertical slide and has put back my plans to buy a mill several times now. Depends on what you're gonna do, of course – I don't do M/C stuff at present.

When I was turning for pay in the 70s, I thought well of Boxfords, but had no time for Myfords, which seemed to attract an undeserved level of reverence even then. I've had one since – for 15 years – and managed some admiration for their robust simplicity, but that got outcompeted by the capacity and standard features offered by the Warco. I've had it 5 years now, in use most days.

[Fred Bloggs 3Participant @fredbloggs3]

Thanks guys, yes, I like the Warco machines very much. I know enough now thanks to the input here. I'll do more research over the coming weekend and see where I land on cost/budget/capability. I know now that I can rule out making a set of fork yokes start to finish. But I'd make maybe one set this year and one set next year. So, it's not a deal breaker.

Cheers.

FB.

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Good luck Fred

I needed a lathe for exactly the same reasons – motorcycle tinkering – but went old school for the mass and rigidity

So far only made some tapered pins and top hats for some after market foot pegs but had lots of practice turning large lumps of metal into swarf and having huge fun learning along the way.

I find this forum and the magazine invaluable – the forum for help and the magazine for inspiration

All the best

John

[Fred Bloggs 3Participant @fredbloggs3]

Cheers John.

FB.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Coming in late, as usual,

If you wanted a new, larger machine, you could consider a Sieg SC6 from Axminster, but that would exceed a £1K budget, by some way but comes with a 3 year warranty.

If you want to swing large stuff, and have a large bore Mandrel, how about considering a used Warco BH600, Chester Craftsman, or if you can find one an Engineers ToolRoom BL12 -24?.

Hopefully, it would still be in good condition, despite being over 15 tears old.

Basically, they are all the same machine. The BH 600 (There was a longer bed BH900 version ) was offered as Imperial or Metric, the Craftsman was all Metric and the BL12-24 was a Metric build, but with dual dials. Mandrel bore was 38 mm from memory (5 MT ) Swing was 12" or 18" with the gap removed.

From new they came with Faceplate, Steadies 3 and 4 jaw chucks. With 12 speeds (including back gear ) a Norton box and power feed on both axes, (driven by a separate power shaft ) they were quite a versatile machine.

They had induction hardened bed, and were big and heavy (300 Kg ), so quite rigid, and with a 2 hp single phase motor, quite powerful.

Just a thought!

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 06/05/2020 11:31:34

[Fred Bloggs 3Participant @fredbloggs3]

Thanks Howard, thoughts and input greatly appreciated.

FB

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Apologies – I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so may be way off target. Sometimes, it's possible to attack enoumous workpieces with a small lathe. For example, you may be able to produce an extremely accurate hole in a workpiece that's far to big to swing, by boring it with a between-centres boring bar. Size isn't everything, as the bishop said to……

[Fred Bloggs 3Participant @fredbloggs3]

Cheers Kiwi Bloke, indeed. My imagination is running riot. Armed with a little more knowledge I will do my research this weekend and see where I land. The ex-display machine at Chester Machine Tools looks very attractive at £500. And leaves plenty of money over for other toys. Now, about this bench mount pillar drill I need…………..

As an aside, has anyone recently sen the utter junk on eBay that people seem to think are lathes? A Colchester Sudent for £6500? I really don't think so. LOL!

FB.

Edited By Fred Bloggs 3 on 06/05/2020 12:00:04

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by Fred Bloggs 3 on 06/05/2020 07:49:53:

Thanks Jason B, I need a 250mm radius to bore the yokes which I see thse days is considered 500mm swing. Very clearly I am not going to get a machine that will do that. My understanding has come a long way the last 24 hours.

FB

If you buy a machine like a Warco WM 240 or Chester DB10 with a t-slotted cross slide you could bore the yokes (and perhaps even cylinders) with a between-centres boring bar.

Brian

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