My first foray into clock repair

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

On the subject of oiling, the pallet faces (unless jeweled) should have a very fine film of clock oil. It's best, after assembling it dry to just apply a small drop of oil from the end of a pin to one of the pallets where it contacts the escape wheel. The clock's motion will then distribute it to all the escape wheel teeth and the other pallet. Too much oil will be as bad as too little.

Russell

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Posted by Fowlers Fury on 19/10/2017 17:26:00:

Accordingly there ought to be no "long parallel hole" through which the pivot turns and thus brushing some solvent onto both sides of the plate should (might?) remove any old oxidised oil – shown in red below. Clock mechanisms are pretty robust and "…doing damage in the long term if I run it uncleaned" is very unlikely especially one encased. I would suggest you try the easy way first. As before. you've nothing to lose but half an hour's work.

If you've not completely dismantled and reassembled a clock before, the lengthy process is quite a challenge though rewarding if the clock could not otherwise be made to run.

Apologies for the tardy response but I do appreciate all of the comments & help.

I think this will be my approach – clean the pivots (without dismantling) & re-lubricate, then see how long it runs for. Now here comes what might seem like an exceedingly stupid question. As well as the pivots in the back plate, will I need to remove the hands & face in order to do the same to the pivots in the front plate?

I definitely would like to have a go at dismantling & re-assembling a clock at some stage but feel that this clock is not the one to try it with.

Brian

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

"Now here comes what might seem like an exceedingly stupid question."

There is no such thing.

"As well as the pivots in the back plate, will I need to remove the hands & face in order to do the same to the pivots in the front plate?"

I don't want to complicate the answer to that, so…..it depends on how much room there is twixt the plate and dial.

If they have been oiled before and there's insufficient room to put solvent from an artist's brush into all the oiling cups then "yes" you should. It is a straightforward enough procedure.

A careless previous owner may have just dribbled oil down from the top of the front plate so either way (i.e. whether oiled before or not) removal is advisable.

But as before, if you're hesitant then just somehow try applying solvent in situ – if the clock still wont run you'll just have to then remove the dial.

[AJSParticipant @ajs]

Russell mentioned above that the pallets need oiling. However, the wheel and pinion teeth are intended to run without oil.

When you get the movement to run you will find, in all probability, that the strike will not be correct. that is, the number of strikes will not agree with the hour hand. This is because this movement has a locking plate striking system. Correction is easily carried out by moving the minute hand until the striking has taken place and then operating the strike manually, generally by depressing a lever on the side, until the correct hour has stuck. Hope this helps.

Alan

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Posted by Fowlers Fury on 22/11/2017 14:57:44:

"Now here comes what might seem like an exceedingly stupid question."

There is no such thing.

"As well as the pivots in the back plate, will I need to remove the hands & face in order to do the same to the pivots in the front plate?"

I don't want to complicate the answer to that, so…..it depends on how much room there is twixt the plate and dial.

If they have been oiled before and there's insufficient room to put solvent from an artist's brush into all the oiling cups then "yes" you should. It is a straightforward enough procedure.

A careless previous owner may have just dribbled oil down from the top of the front plate so either way (i.e. whether oiled before or not) removal is advisable.

But as before, if you're hesitant then just somehow try applying solvent in situ – if the clock still wont run you'll just have to then remove the dial.

I agree about no such thing as stupid questions. There’s only stupid answers – not that i’ve had any of them, I should hasten to add!

Having had a look at the fixings for the dial & hands, I see that they’re tapered pins. I think I can cope with them, so I’m going to psych myself up. I’m just slightly nervous about damaging the dial when I remove the hands.

Regarding the oiling, I’ve had a look at Meadows & Passmore’s website and I think my choice of oils is between the Medmaw clock oil (0329 012515) & the Moebius small clock oil (0453 803015). Is that a reasonable deduction & does one have any advantage over the other?

Brian

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

"Having had a look at the fixings for the dial & hands, I see that they’re tapered pins"
If the hands are secured by tapered pins you should have no fear of damaging the face.
It's where hands are friction fits on the shafts and have been twisted off by 2 screwdrivers that damage is done
To play safe cut a disc of paper and then a radial cut to the centre and insert that between hands and face.
Ensure the taper pins go back in their original holes.

As for clock oil ~ I've not looked at the difference in price recently but suspect Moebius is the more expensive. It's not as though you're going to use much and when I purchased Moebius from M&P it came packed in several small vials so you don't contaminate the whole lot when keep dipping your oil pin into the stock. I'd think with a clock of that size and vintage you'd be fine using the cheaper (?) M&P oil.
To repeat what others have posted, you only need the tiniest quatity of oil on each end of each arbour. Using a pin, as Russell suggests, will give you an idea of how little is needed.

I hope this quick solution (solvent + oil) works for you because old & oxidised oil can be difficult to shift without dismantling. If it doesn't, at least you'll have maybe overcome your hesitancy about tackling a rebuild.

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Posted by Fowlers Fury on 26/11/2017 22:48:05:

Ensure the taper pins go back in their original holes.

I'm curious – why do you say that the taper pins need to go back in their original hole? I was intending to replace them, as the originals are very rough and ready.

Life has got in the way of workshop time once again but I'm now back on the job.

The hands & dial were removed without any drama & the pivots cleaned and oiled. I've created a simple clamping device so that I can fix the movement to the side of my work bench & work on it unhindered by the case.

First the good news – I set the movement horizontal and started it running yesterday. 24 hrs later, it's still going. Now the bad news – having set the movement horizontal, the pendulum doesn't hang vertically when stationary and has a distinct bias to one side when swinging (if the movement is tilted so that the pendulum hangs on the centre line of the movement, it refuses to run properly). Is the this an indication that the suspension spring is bent (I don't think it looks as if it is) or that the back cock is in need of adjustment?

Brian

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Brian You should be able to adjust the crutch on its arbor to get the pendulum to hang vertical

Also if fitting new taper pins you should have no problems

Roy

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Posted by roy entwistle on 30/01/2018 21:59:35:

You should be able to adjust the crutch on its arbor to get the pendulum to hang vertical

I’ve just had a look & the crutch appears to be held on the crutch with a split collet / collar. If so, I presume I should be able to simply twist the crutch on the arbour. Is that a reasonable assumption?

Brian

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

EDIT: Your reply appeared just as I posted this ! I wouldn't attempt to disturb the collet.

Roy is correct, but if you're not clear on what he means this might help:-

The crutch is that piece which those index fingers are pressing !
The picture is trying to show what you need to do. That is, bend the vertical rod little by little until with the clock horizontal your pendulum hangs vertically. Hopefully then the clock will still be in beat.
If it now refuses to run, you may need to loosen the 2(?) screws on the back plate which support the pendulum spring pillars. The holes through which they fit should be large enough to permit slight rotation of the pendulum supports. Doing so will alter the escapement.
Again, and assuming your clock has this facility, you'll have to progress slowly by trial and error until the clock is in beat. If you're still unsure, post a picture of the pendulum support.

Although fitting new taper pins is worthwhile you may find the female tapers are far from good in an old clock and new pins may not seat firmly. (That's why I wrote "the taper pins need to go back in their original holes".
In the absence of a correct taper pin reamer, (which you couldn't use anyway without removing the backplate) just give the new pins a "more gentle" tap in.

 

Edited By Fowlers Fury on 30/01/2018 22:39:51

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Brian All respect to Fowlers Fury but I would gently twist the collet on the arbour

Roy

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

If you're going to adjust it by bending the crutch, just make sure it doesn't end up like this !!

Russell

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Russell ~ your pic reminds me of the mangled crutch on an old English longcase I restored. The badly bent brass was so brittle it fractured hopefully that wouldn't happen with Brian's clock.

Brian ~ looking in your 'album' I now see there's an image of the pendulum support.
I've "levelled" the top edge of the backplate with Photoshop and can see the pendulum was not vertical and the pallets seem wrong.
Also it appears (with the arrow) that the aforementioned suspension spring support has been previously moved, evidenced perhaps by the screw on the left being ….err…mistreated.

Revised thinking is that you first try slackening those 2 screws and adjusting the plate before trying to modify the crutch or disturbing the collet.
It may be that easy.

Edited By Fowlers Fury on 31/01/2018 11:06:28

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

I hasten to say that the mangled screws are not my doing! There are number of others in the same state which indicate that it has been 'got at' previously.

I did wonder about slackening the screws & adjusting that way but I was worried that doing so would upset the relationship between the pallets & the escape wheel (is that the right term?). Although the pendulum is off centre, the clock is running.What appears to be wrong with the pallets? Would the fact that they are wrong be accounted for by a previous adjustment of the support?

Brian

Edited By Bodger Brian on 31/01/2018 14:14:06

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Brian,

"Slackening the screws and adjusting…." is to achieve that relationship between the escape wheel teeth and pallets.

It could be there are parallax errors but looking at your image I reproduced, the split rod holding the suspension spring appears to be canted over to the left i.e. anticlockwise. That is causing the spring to be bent very slightly as it emerges. Instead, the suspension spring should be perfectly straight.
In the rest position the pallets should have one pallet holding back one tooth of the escapement wheel. In your picture there is the appearance of one pallet resting on top of a tooth. Again it might be due to the camera angle but if not, that must be corrected. Accordingly I think that if you slackened the 2 screws and turned the bracket slightly to the right (of the image) you should both correct the spring's slight bend and get the pallets engaging correctly.

[Bodger BrianParticipant @bodgerbrian]

Thanks – I think I understand. Perhaps I should have said "…but I was worried that doing so without knowing what I was doing would upset the relationship between the pallets & the escape wheel.."

Now you've explained it, I feel a bit more confident in doing so.

Brian

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Bring it along in April: http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=132921

There will be lots of people, some experts, eager to offer opinions on how to fix and what it is worth. If you get the chance, you get a lot out of a face to face conversation and physically pointing to bits of the clock.

Although a bit of fresh oil may get it running as a short term fix, for longevity you should strip and clean every now and then …. and it looks like it could do with a clean.

The striking mechanisims can be more awkward to reassemble as you have to get the positioning of wheels correct relative to each other (so not just get them in the right holes). Very often there are tell-tale marks on them to help align them which you would miss if you didn't know to look for them. It is much easier to be shown these things than try to work them out from books.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

I picked up an app for my iPhone (Cucko clock Calibration) which listens to the beat of the clock and indicates which way to bend the crutch. It also counts the beats so that you can adjust the pendulum length/ timing of the clock.
BobH

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Bodger Brian,

My Mother has her Father in laws, my Grandad's its very similar in a similar cabinet but it has a pendulum and yours looks as if it should.

Martin P

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Posted by Fowlers Fury on 22/11/2017 14:57:44:

"Now here comes what might seem like an exceedingly stupid question."

There is no such thing.

I have to disagree. I was present when someone asked an unbelievably stupid question. We were on a tour of the Westlands factory in Yeovil. The stupid question was 'Why doesn't the helicopter have an ejector seat?,

Now that is stupid.

Never seen anything on that scale online.

Regards

Richard.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by richardandtracy on 31/01/2018 21:23:08:

Posted by Fowlers Fury on 22/11/2017 14:57:44:

"Now here comes what might seem like an exceedingly stupid question."

There is no such thing.

I have to disagree. I was present when someone asked an unbelievably stupid question. We were on a tour of the Westlands factory in Yeovil. The stupid question was 'Why doesn't the helicopter have an ejector seat?,

Now that is stupid.

Never seen anything on that scale online.

Regards

Richard.

The Russian Kaman Ka 50 is fitted with a system. The Americans have tried it in Apaches but didnt follow it up.

[RedsetterParticipant @redsetter]

The screws indicated by Fowlers Fury in his picture are for adjusting the depth of the escapement, not for correcting the beat. Don't mess with them unnecessarily as the adjustment will be lost, and as the clock in question will run without the pendulum the depth is probably about right.

For beat adjustment, on this type of clock there is often a friction clutch connecting the crutch to the pallet arbor. This is supposed to adjust the beat automatically but may be troublesome with age as it needs just the right amount of friction. If it is too loose the clock will stop. Adjustment of the beat is done by moving the crutch on the arbor and not by bending it.

De Carle is very learned, but possibly not the best book for the beginner. Try Clock Repairing and Adjusting by W.L. Randell, one of the Percival Marshall series – basic but informative.

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Re: "I have to disagree. I was present when someone asked an unbelievably stupid question. We were on a tour of the Westlands factory in Yeovil. The stupid question was 'Why doesn't the helicopter have an ejector seat?, Now that is stupid. Never seen anything on that scale online.".

Point taken but perhaps the questionner had been thinking about downward ejector seats, like the B52 & much later F104s? (only joking !)

<><><><><>

But back to the Brian's (OP) questions and follow-up answers. Inevitable I'm afraid you'll receive conflicting advice, suggest you ignore mine and follow that of those more learned in these matters.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Brian,

You have a relatively mass produced clock sadly of no great value. However, I would be as keen as you to get it running again and overhauled.

In my youth, a number of striking clock mechanisms (of no particular worth) were left in a tub of petrol, and the petrol squirted through all pivot holes with something like a turkey baster moving the pivots for and aft.

Later, other valuable movements were treated better and more thoroughly in subsequent years, and worn pivot holes rebushed, and damaged pivots replaced. But the tub of petrol approach is not to be dismissed if all pivots show no play in the pivot holes.

I can cope with English movements and their striking, and Longcase clock movements and their striking.

However, I failed miserably with an American striking movement on a rather nice family heirloom, and I failed to re-assemble the striking mechanism correctly after repairing some worn pivots and pivot holes with the clock completely dismantled. It runs ok and keeps good time, but I do not wind up the striking mechanism as it goes mad. Your project has inspired me to have another look at it after some 23 years.

But I think my point is that in these cheaper foreign movements is to be very careful what you do so far as dismantling and the striking mechanism. Others far more expert than me will no doubt give you far better advice.

Cheers,

Julian

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by julian atkins on 01/02/2018 00:22:45:

But I think my point is that in these cheaper foreign movements is to be very careful what you do so far as dismantling and the striking mechanism. Others far more expert than me will no doubt give you far better advice.

I take lots of photographs during the dismantling process. That gives me a reference for the reverse process.

Currently working on one of these.

Russell

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 01/02/2018 09:38:05

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