IME Watchmakers lathe

[GreensandsParticipant @greensands]

Can anyone supply me with a link giving information on the IME watchmakers lathe. Many thanks in advance.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Lots of pretty pictures on http://www.lathes.co.uk.  A little written info, too with further links within the text, which I haven’t followed.

John

 

[GreensandsParticipant @greensands]

Examining a range of photos of the IME watchmakers  lathe would suggest that they were commonly supplied with a simple hand tool rest for applying the cut although it would appear that a compound slide rest might have been available as an extra. This would imply that users would  require a degree of skill to produce accurate results. Another oddity would appear to be a double ended tailstock arrangement supplied as standard. What would be the purpose of that? Another point, the headstock is kitted out to accept 8mm collets but I have also seen photos with lathes fitted with a small 4 Jaw chuck but with no obvious means of attachment. Perhaps an existing user of one of these lathes could provide some enlightenment.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The other end of the tailstock is a female centre.
The chuck is on an 8mm arbor.

A lot of these lathes from 60 years ago are very similar and parts interchanged. Copyright ignored and plagiarism common it seems.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Chucks were fitted with collet shaped arbors

[Greensands]

On Greensands Said:

Examining a range of photos of the IME watchmakers  lathe would suggest that they were commonly supplied with a simple hand tool rest for applying the cut although it would appear that a compound slide rest might have been available as an extra. This would imply that users would  require a degree of skill to produce accurate results. …

Yes, indeed.  I seriously considered taking up clockmaking rather than ‘Model Engineering’ and collected a few books, one of which goes into a fair amount of detail on how to use a watchmaker’s lathe.   Can’t find it this morning, of course, but similar to this one.

Not just a miniature version of an ordinary general purpose lathe, and they require noticeably different technique.  No screw-cutting or lead-screw; collets, shellac & stub-mandrels more likely than chucks; hand rest and gravers rather than a tool-post & fixed cutter; high rpm & low power; many specialised accessories; and most cutting done by eye, not measured.  And more! The scale is tiny, so good eyesight, bright light, and a loupe help.

Low run-out is important, so watchmakers lathes tend to be well made.  Unfortunately, I fear they’re not much use on their own without a good selection of accessories, and they’re often missing.   Never used one in anger though, and decided to go with general purpose metalwork, not clockmaking: perhaps a clockmaker will explain what the minimum essential tool kit is?

Dave

 

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

I suspect the book Dave is referring to is Donald DeCarle’s “The Watchmakers and Model Engineers Lathe”. It goes into great detail on many many models of these lathes including IME – which seems to be one of the better quality units.

As Dave also says the most basic versions of Watchmakers lathes are used with collets and a drawbar, and cutting done with HSS or carbide gravers supported by a tool rest clamped to the bed. . The biggest issue with the simple setup is that the collets only hold material very close to their nominal size. A standard full size set of watchmakers collets consists of 80 collets from .1mm to 8mm in .1mm increments and at around £10 – £12  each (even used) it gets expensive. Then there are all the specials!

Collets and accessories based on them (e.g. chucks) are sort of interchangeable between lathes taking the same size (6mm, 6.5mm, 8mm, 10mm) collets. Accessories that fit the bed not so much. There are a couple of bed patterns Geneva (round bed with a flat at the back) for example for which the bed mounting accessories can be interchanged with some minor loss of alignment – although originally the factories would have created them as sets to ensure precision. However for many models the beds are proprietary, and the accessories rare unless they are included with the set you get. IME seems to be one of those.

I have a couple of Geneva pattern lathes, one 6mm, and one 8mm. The 6mm has a set of collets and a three jaw chuck, the 8mm just collets and a faceplate, but it does have cross and topslide. I bought them because I like them, but only really use them for pivot polishing. Anything serious gets done on the Taig.

I got both of mine cheaply, and bought them for fun. But if you are thinking of getting one for serious work, I would ensure it has a fairly complete set of the accessories you will want to use, and that will probably make it as expensive as a new Sherline or Taig.

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Dave.,

Re: “perhaps a clockmaker will explain what the minimum essential tool kit is?”

It would be presumptuous in the extreme to claim to be a “clockmaker” but I’ve restored a few clocks and many ‘pocket’ watches over the years.

(1) The “bibles” of miniature lathe use and time piece work are frequently said to be Donald De Carle’s “Practical Watch Repairing” and “The Watchmaker’s and Model Engineer’s Lathe”. I agree. My invaluable copy of the former is dated 1947 and my copy of the latter was reprinted in 1993.
(2) So…..”what is the minimum essential tool kit?” you ask. Not being facetious but it entirely depends what you wish to do. IF building a clock of modest size de novo then:-
a lathe equipped with a means of wheel quartering, a tail stock from which you can drill with collets, a hand-tool rest, a selection of graving tools, a tail stock ‘pivot rest’ for polishing the ends of spindles and ideally ~ a means of milling the teeth of wheels (i.e. a cross-slide mounted powered arbour). Additionally a large collection of stones, polishing kit etc. You would certainly benefit from a small spirit lamp for blueing and tempering steel !  But all of that is so much more capably described by De Carle in his reprinted book.
Rebuilding worn-out clocks is likely to demand similar kit.

Your 2nd paragraph is not unreasonable but cross slide + tool post, “collet chucks” etc on many small lathes obviate the need for much, if any, shellac or hand-held gravers on a rest. The lathe shown below (2nd image) was in a neglected state when acquired. But, it was Ni plated and over the years, collets etc have been added. It’s powered from a 1/8th HP, 240v motor. Making the box was a time-consuming diversion though.
(It was covered in film to lessen temptations when displayed at an exhibition !).

The 1st image is of a Wolf Jahn cross slide & top slide all superbly calibrated. They and others, were often fitted as extras when purchased – or acquired later. So, I’ve no experience of trying hand graving. My home-made tool post is of the “American” type. Acquiring small enough HSS pieces to make cutting tools can be problematic. Turning to fine limits is easy enough ~ it’s a beautifully made bit of kit.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

If I may add one to Fowler’s short-list

This book is is a ‘must:

.

.

Available free on archive.org

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Assuming the almost inevitable failure of this forum to load my pictures … let’s do that the long way

MichaelG.

_________

 

The

Watchmakers’ Lathe

Its Use and Abuse

A Study of the Lathe in Its Various Forms, Past and

Present, Its Construction and Proper Uses*

For the Student and Apprentice.

BY WARD L. GOODRICH

CHICAGO Hazlitt 8c Walker, Publishers 1903

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

I can see it!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

🙂

 

Sod’s Law

[DellParticipant @dell]

I must admit that I am a bit biased towards Pultra lathe be it P type, 17/50, 17/70 or Pultra 10 ( don’t be mislead it’s 8mm ) mainly because they are very good quality, they are English, & there are parts available for sale usually although getting rarer  my Pultra p type is over 80 years old but is still very accurate see video, & it has 10mm head & 8mm tail but I can also use a runner I have to fit but 8mm both ends are available sometimes but what ever lathe people buy they should try to buy with as much accessories as possible, if for using a graver then a tip over tool rest is best so it can be tipped over out the way for measuring but in the end it comes down to what it is going to be used for & cost.

Dell

https://youtu.be/CreAyy1tl10?si=8XKjIiFhTFwKi-Yj

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

I agree absolutely about Goodrich’s book, but this is an old book. I can’t find my copy at the moment but I think it was first published in the early years of the last century so copies may not be easy to find. It is long out of copyright and what you may be offered is an electronic “reprint,” which sounds OK, but beware!

Electronic reprints sold in the UK ( and perhaps in Europe) may be an “exact reprint of the text” as advertised but may contain no photos or drawings- which renders the text nearly useless. Perhaps the process used to create the copy is only programmed to copy text. So perhaps best to check  this point with the seller if considering buying a reprinted copy without actually being able to handle it before purchase. It is an American book but I have no idea if this warning is appropriate foe US readers.

Rod

[Rod Renshaw]

On Rod Renshaw Said:

I agree absolutely about Goodrich’s book, but this is an old book. I can’t find my copy at the moment but I think it was first published in the early years of the last century so copies may not be easy to find. It is long out of copyright and what you may be offered is an electronic “reprint,” which sounds OK, but beware! […]

I found no need to buy anything, Rod

The book is freely available as a page-perfect pdf download on archive.org

approx 30MB … which is a big advantage to using an iPad and the  GoodReader App

MichaelG.

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Ref.

http://ia601300.us.archive.org/7/items/watchmakerslathe00good/watchmakerslathe00good.pdf

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

The other really good book is Archie Perkins – The Modern Watchmakers Lathe And How To Use It.

Dave

[Author]

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