Buying a small mill

[egaParticipant @ega]

If you do break a tap then being able to make the remains in the hole "disintegrate" is a distinct advantage.

[AdrianRParticipant @adrianr18614]

Re: tapping, in issue 292 there was Grahams Meek's tapping tool. This inspired me, I had a spare long reach tap wrench. Hacksaw the toggle off, and made a knurled knob. I loosely guide it with the chuck and turn the tap by hand.

As Graham mentioned in the article, there is the risk of dropping the tool out of the chuck and breaking the tap, but using a tap holder with a point to guide it, or the lack of feeling when using the mill chuck is equally prone to problems.

So far I have used it from 8BA into blind holes to 8mm in steel, and it has been a great boon.

Re Mill, I have a round column mill with a guide strip, the alignment is not great, but it is not an Emco. I last Thursday I ordered a SIEG SX3 from ARC, it is being delivered tomorrow. It was hard to choose between the SX2.7L and the SX3, in the end the adage buy the biggest you can afford won. An extra 60KG of iron has to be a good thing.

I chose ARC due to the good reviews and personal experience of both the support and quality of the items. SIEG as a brand seem to be popular at the moment. Also I have seen it being sold by other quality suppliers here in the UK and in the US.

Adrian

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

Posted by ega on 06/05/2020 14:40:03:

If you do break a tap then being able to make the remains in the hole "disintegrate" is a distinct advantage.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I expected to have to throw away the workpiece with the broken tap embedded in it but thought that there was nothing to loose by trying to screw the broken part out of the workpiece – it was a through hole – before I started again.

But gripping with the plies resulted in disintegration.

That was why I suspect that I got a Friday Afternoon (Poet's Day?) product and wrote to the supplier.

I suspected that the steel from which the tap was made was below specification..

With best wishes and thanks again.

MC Black

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

My own experience is as follows:-

I bought a Clarke CMD10 which is the same machine as the Seig SX1 if I am correct. It's a 'micromill' according to some definition and the bottom end of the milling machine world.

I struggled with it at first. A combination of idiot user and it just not being well made. Over time I've made many enhancements to it (thrust washers, scraping the ways, adjusting the gears and some tweaks to the jibs.

For whatever reason, I got to grips with it and was able to use it to the limit of it's capability – and probably beyond mine.

Despite this the surface finish has never been particularly good and the accuracy isn't marvellous.

Roll forward a few years and I recently invested in a rather bigger machine from Amadeal (VM32L). This is 10 times the poiwer, 3 or 4 times the movement in X and Y and about twice in Z – and 3 times the price.

You can do a lot more with it, the surface finish is much better and I can carve metal to the thou (or better, perhaps), rather than 2 – 4 times worse than that.

It's not perfect and I'm having some struggles with it and ancillary equipment, though the jury is out (again) on if the issues are the machine or the idiot running it.

I spent quite some time looking at larger machines and you can read my post on my struggles on this forum here.

I ended up with a big spreadsheet of the available options and then tried hard to work out which was most important to me.

One thing to consider is that most suppliers seem to finding machines from China hard to get hold of, so if you want an early delivery you might need to filter by what you can buy.

My summary is that I would definitely buy a bigger machine if you have the room. But you are likely have to do some kind of fettling to get it just right – more so with the cheaper end of the market.

I don't think anyone's raised the new Chinese vs old Industrial red rag yet. But although I bought new Chinese, you can get decent quality old industrial machines (Tom Senior, for example) for the same price as a big CHinese hobby mill. Worth thinking about if you are clued up or have a friend who is.

Finally, the bigger machines are damned heavy. Mine weighs a quarter of a ton and only just managed to squeak it into my shed, though people do dismantle them.

Iain

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

I don't think I'd be too surprised if a broken tap shattered when given a bit of crunching from pliers, they are hard, and hence brittle after all, and the breakage might have initiated more cracks than the one that went all the way across.

One tip I'd add re. using taps (and dies), is when you back off to break the swarf and feel the resistance increase, don't carry on backing off; go forward again and then back, and you'll find the swarf build-up will clear without jamming and breaking the tap or tearing the thread.

As for mills – I've got a Sieg SX1L, it's all I have room for and it works well for its size. Using an end mill I find that it sounds happier using a deep cut so that the side of the cutter is shaving the workpiece, rather than the end edges hammering into engagement. I think it could probably handle a more powerful motor – I have vague thoughts of fitting an induction motor and belt drive, though doing this without hanging the motor off the back (and hence undesirably increasing the machine's footprint) looks tricky.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

The tap business, I have bought quite a few. The old 2nd hand sets that are BSW & BSF both taps & dies. Most are Presto. Probably amongst the best in the world. The metric set was a dilemma. I would not even consider any Asian import ones for the reasons of that, a tap is a piece of equipment that does a serious amount of work.

Cheap maybe for a 1 off job. But for longevity the best you can get should last a life time. The set I ended up with are German made in HSS. So far I have done a lot of work with them up to press they have been 100%. But that said I have a lot of past experience with tapping steel, spent half my life doing it. You do get a feel for that kind of work. Cannot remember ever breaking a tap. Wish I could say the same for milling cutters (Doh). I always use the correct size of tapping drill. Some go oversize to make it easier. But we know why a tapping drill size is specified don't we.

The milling machine route. Different ball game. I have been down this road recently. I did a fair amount of homework. There are a lot of imported Asian ones that need a lot of work on them to bring up to scratch, which is a shame as the theory of the design is ok. Just the result of working for a pot noodle is never going to be quality. Have you seen these guys & gals in there shorts & sandals working a million hours a week. I looked at the Arc euro ones & in particular the Sieg SX3.5 twin turbo model that looks absolutely stunning. It not only looks good but has all the bells & whistles one would ever want out of a milling machine. They are not cheap & also it seems not available just at the moment, due to probably the current situation we are in. I would have waited for one but was told in a heated argument that I may not be able to purchase one anyway. I was told I may not meet the criteria I guess. Warco I did look at too. But a few members told me the old British made ones were a good machine. I ended up with a Tom Senior vertical light. 1977 vintage. It had some updates like a DRO system fitted & A 3phase motor with Toshiba inverter. I have done a few bits myself. It is a very strong & stable machine. The problem is that one of these kind of machines is maybe bigger than you want.

The advantages of the Chinese models is that most of them are bench top mounting so you only need a good braced work surface to mount it on. I think one of these will fit your needs. The only improvements that seem to be needed is the accuracy. Like getting the various parts to fit at the correct angles. Once that is done they seem to be ok. I would not go for a earlier brushed DC motor model as they seem to have a habit of failing motors & drive boards. The later brushless DC drives seem to be better. Although the drive boards are known to sometimes fail. I don't know why the Chinese ones didn't just fit a 3ph AC motor & inverter  package which is a proven & reliable method of controlling a motor. 

To conclude I was thinking of spending around £500 to £600 on buying one. I ended up £1500 out of pocket. That is just the beginning. Once purchased you will spend as much, if not more again on tooling & gadgets for it. I know I have done it.

Biggest you can afford & fit in the garage.

Honestly if I was a young man again I would be setting up a company to make new lathes & milling machines for the connoisseur. Precise & accurate with a dash of good looks. Expensive but perfect. But alas I am an old codger with a young mind as most of the forum members. Apart from the young'uns. Just an aside I think Myford are doing just that. Dam plans out the window. 

Oh my god I have just looked at my post & I am getting like the Silly old duffer. Nooooo.

Steve.

 

Edited By Steviegtr on 07/05/2020 00:42:33

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

I apologise for muddying the water with my comment about the Serial Tap disintegrating.

I inherited a lot of taps (and some dies) from my late father. Some were bought before WWII and go up to 1 inch BSW. The family company's business was Architectural Ironwork until Dunkirk when it diversified into munitions!

Until the unfortunate incident described, I had never broken a tap.

I have read the Workshop Practice Series No. 12 – "Drills, Taps and Dies by Tubal Cain" especially his comments about percentage engagement – so I confess that I don't know why Tapping Drill size is specified!

Reverting now to my original query about buying a Mill, I don't have a lot of space in my shed and will be rebuilding some Dexion Shelving with a 500mm deep worktop for the Mill.

So, accepting everything about bigger/heavier being better, I think I'm restricted to the smallest model in most companies ranges.

I think I'm also restricted to buying new since I won't be able to drive across the country to buy a second-hand Mill because of Covid-19 pandemic lockdown.

I would like to have a machine delivered which I can use straight out f the crate without having to rebuild it first.

Am I asking too much?

With best wishes and thanks again.

MC

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

You would probably due to your last post, not go far wrong looking at JasonB on here. He is a Administrator of the forum. He has I believe a Sieg X3. If you look him up on youtube you will see some of the work he does. The machine seems to be very stable & can cope with most jobs. It is not a small machine , but neither is it a big one. It is table top mounted & I believe affordable.

I can only say do not buy a little skinny one & then spend your days thinking. If only I had gone a little bigger.

Steve.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Steviegtr:

"Just the result of working for a pot noodle is never going to be quality. Have you seen these guys and gals in there shorts & sandals working a million hours a week……….the Sieg SX3.5 twin turbo model looks absolutely stunning".

Just to increase your buyer's remorse, Steve, here's a photo of the Sieg factory taken last week. The guy on the left says if you come to China and pay him a visit at the factory he will defo make you change that outdated "British is best" mindset.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 07/05/2020 02:07:06:

Posted by Steviegtr:

"Just the result of working for a pot noodle is never going to be quality. Have you seen these guys and gals in there shorts & sandals working a million hours a week……….the Sieg SX3.5 twin turbo model looks absolutely stunning".

Just to increase your buyer's remorse, Steve, here's a photo of the Sieg factory taken last week. The guy on the left says if you come to China and pay him a visit at the factory he will defo make you change that outdated "British is best" mindset.

No thank you. He looks too angry.

Steve.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Enough of this, Stevie once again you are getting close to racist and Bill is pushing his luck too.

Maybe a look at the "Production Strength" video on this page will educate you to what modern Far Eastern industry is actually like even at the hobby machine level, hardly a manual machine in site.

Also why state that Asian taps are cheap, that is again a broard generalisation when there are very high spec taps and all sorts of tooling coming out of the Asian continent, I know my KG-1 taps and inserts out of Korea were not cheap. Same as your general statement about round column mills which again was incorrect as several posting here have confirmed.

 

Edited By JasonB on 07/05/2020 07:30:39

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 06/05/2020 14:10:08:

MCB 2

My apologies.

I relied on my memory. The #10 catalogue showed such an item, but #11 does not seem to.

Such an tool can be made easily. What is needed is a base with a vertical pillar, and an arm that can slide up and down the pillar, and be locked to it. The outer end of the arm has a bearing / bush through which passes a spindle carrying a drill chuck on the lower end, and a handwheel on the upper end. The spindle is capable of sliding through the arm

The pillar should be "square" to the base, and the two holes through the arm should be parallel to each other.

The drill chuck, having three jaws, grips the round shank of the tap, not the square. This should keep the tap square to the job, and as the tap cuts into the work, the spindle slides through the arm. The handwheel, or short arms of the handle, limit the torque that can be applied. If the tap sticks for any reason, the probability is that it will slip in the chuck jaws, before reaching the point of breaking. being manual, you will have a feel for what is going on.

It does not need to be a high precision device, ordinary sliding fits will suffice.

If you want a photograph of my monstrosity, PM me with an E mail address, and I'll take a picture and send it to you.

Having seen posts while I was typing; in the Mill/Drill, I use a proprietary spring loaded gadget (with male or female ends to suit the particular Tap ) to hold the Tap vertical, and to prevent bending, whilst driving it with a tap wrench in the usual way..

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 06/05/2020 14:14:16

Hi Howard, I guess this is the item you were referring too, but it last appeared in Cat' 9.

Regards Nick.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Steviegtr on 07/05/2020 00:15:43:

Oh my god I have just looked at my post & I am getting like the Silly old duffer.

No need to worry about that. SoD is an amusing read, even if I don't always agree with him.

Andrew

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by MC Black 2 on 07/05/2020 01:04:21:

Reverting now to my original query about buying a Mill, I don't have a lot of space in my shed and will be rebuilding some Dexion Shelving with a 500mm deep worktop for the Mill.

I would like to have a machine delivered which I can use straight out f the crate without having to rebuild it first.

Am I asking too much?

In the Sieg line up you can get upto the SX2.7 onto a 500mm deep bench top, just the handle overhangs

I've 3 Sieg mills all have been put to use straight out of the crate without stripping down just a quick adjustment of gibs etc to get them how I like oldest one the X3 has been going since 2007. The SX2.7 I have had for almost 3 years as it was used for the Milling for beginners series, probably does not get a smuch use as I like my DRO but was using it for a couple of hours yesterday as the table is a bit lower and it's possible to sit at it to do detailed work. KX3 came to me as a customer return, they had damaged it through knot knowing what they were doing, soon had it up and running and it's been working fine for me,

I wonder how many of these other negative comments are from people with little experience who don't know how to use the machines and blame them rather than themselves. For example people posting in this thread were blunting cutters in very short time as they did not know how to use their mill properly only a couple of weeks ago yet are posting now like experts

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, round column milling machines always seem to get put down, and yes they do have the loss of registering problem when raising and lowering of the mill head, but there are ways to overcome this, Some have used a unit fixed to the head that projects a laser line on to the wall behind, which can be lined up with a suitable line marked on the wall. Others I've seen involve a clamp on the bottom section of the column with a vertical bar and a sliding bush arrangement is fitted to the head. I have had the problem a time or two, but with careful planning it can often be overcome by putting the head at a suitable height, so that tooling can be changed without having to move the head. The round column head can also have some advantages, as it can be swung round to reach various positions on some jobs that simply can't be reached by a fixed column without resetting the work piece and I've had this advantage many times on mine.

Regards Nick.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

JB is spot on.

Just think back to the motorcycle issue of the 1960s. The Japanese imports took over from the out-dated British motorcycle industry for exactly the reason that the British machinery was old and not as precise as the then modern Japanese manufacturing production lines. The British designs were not up-dated and basically they died for that reason – the British buyers stopped buying British and purchased cheaper and better machines from Japanes manufacturers.

Yes, they revved far higher (so more power, but less ‘torque’ and subsequently were not, at the time, considered as so long-lived).

Certainly some Chinese manufacturing is very parochial – as is a lot of Indian manufacture – and quality control is poor or often non-existent. Copies of highly technical items (made under highly precise manufacturing conditions) are virtually always inferior and cheaper (or why would anyone buy them?). But China did not become the major manufacturing base in the world by remaining as back-yard foundries. They make millions of items which are exactly as the specifications demand.

Cheap chinese is likely carp. Good chinese can be as good as required anywhere in the world. Unfortunately the hobby market is cheap (the buyers choice!) and machines have been produced down to a price rather than up to a higher standard. ’You gets what you pays for’ is so true. The customer is setting the specification and the customer for chinese products is the supplier in their own country. Competition within those countries has driven down prices (to the consumer) by relaxing those specifications, or buying very similar machines from cheaper sources – because there is no market for the highest quality attainable (far too costly for the hobbyist).

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by JasonB on 07/05/2020 08:21:29:

Posted by MC Black 2 on 07/05/2020 01:04:21:

Reverting now to my original query about buying a Mill, I don't have a lot of space in my shed and will be rebuilding some Dexion Shelving with a 500mm deep worktop for the Mill.

I would like to have a machine delivered which I can use straight out f the crate without having to rebuild it first.

Am I asking too much?

In the Sieg line up you can get upto the SX2.7 onto a 500mm deep bench top, just the handle overhangs

I've 3 Sieg mills all have been put to use straight out of the crate without stripping down just a quick adjustment of gibs etc to get them how I like oldest one the X3 has been going since 2007. The SX2.7 I have had for almost 3 years as it was used for the Milling for beginners series, probably does not get a smuch use as I like my DRO but was using it for a couple of hours yesterday as the table is a bit lower and it's possible to sit at it to do detailed work. KX3 came to me as a customer return, they had damaged it through knot knowing what they were doing, soon had it up and running and it's been working fine for me,

I wonder how many of these other negative comments are from people with little experience who don't know how to use the machines and blame them rather than themselves. For example people posting in this thread were blunting cutters in very short time as they did not know how to use their mill properly only a couple of weeks ago yet are posting now like experts

Looks like Neil's thankyou post was a touch premature.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by JasonB on 07/05/2020 07:29:23:

Bill is pushing his luck too.

I did suspect my contribution might be misinterpreted. I'm still not 100% sure that it was, but as someone with all-Chinese machine tools in my workshop and, more significantly, close family connections to China, including someone who was a female lathe operator in a Chinese factory in the 1970's, I tend not to take the mickey out of Chinese stuff.

Certain people, on the other hand, with absurdly contradictory viewpoints about China/Chinese stuff, who routinely express outdated, wholly negative views about it and then in the next breath drool over new Chinese machinery like the SX3.5, are fair game for a bit of joshing, in my book.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Bill,

Perfect timing. Great how you poured cold water over a hot topic.

Todays virtual factory meeting was about delay in shipments and deliveries. This picture was provided to me a few hours ago to show that they can only send out 10 pcs of SX3.. which are expected to be ready for shipment by end of this month, as part of a larger order for various machines and accessories. Then we will be fighting for vessel space. Funny what they churned out since your last picture

The container with the next batch of SX3.5's finally left on vessel MSC MIA on 4th May, and expected to arrive Felixstowe on or around 2nd June 2020… hopefully… with a little prayer, a song and a dance.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 07/05/2020 12:47:16

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Do I take it Ketan that these Seig mills are from a different source than the other coloured varieties. The reason I ask is because I have read very little in the way of complaint regarding any of the Seig products. Only good things have been said.

Steve.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Steve,

In the U.K., SIEG sells to Axminster, ARC. There are different models in SIEGs range, all of which can be seen on SIEGs site: http://www.siegind.com

Axminster sells a bigger range of SIEG machines than ARC. Currently SX2P is exclusive to ARC, but Axminster has a variant, and at present SX3.5DZP is only sold by ARC in the U.K.. Axminster may or may not sell these or their variant in the future, which is up to them to decide.

Chester, Clarke/Machine Mart, Sealey/Draper sell some of the 'base level models' under their own brands.

Complaints will always be there – be it SIEG or any other make machines. SIEG is not necessarily a saint, and nor is ARC. ARC only sells SIEG machines because we only want to deal with one set of gremlins, and we have a close relationship with the factory. Just because something is made by SIEG doesn't mean that it is 'special'. Reasons for these complaints are variable:

• assembly issue at factory
• expectation for price
• importer buying and selling the 'basic specification' – eg. Clarke CL300M = base brushed motor model C2, and CMD10 – base model X1, cmd300/draper 34023 – base model X2. Nothing wrong with these models but marketing perception combined with poor user knowledge/dirty U.K.power/lack of overload protection (because importer chose base model) results in breakage/circuit board damage to which you referred to earlier.
• lack of use of machines resulting in damp/corrosion effecting machine.
• NDIY said it well earlier – it is the end user who dictates price. It is human nature to look for and get a bargain, and/or wanting the cheapest price, with or without understanding what he/she is buying… especially off certain places off auction sites!… When things go wrong, and if the purchase was made without understanding, it is never the users fault is it?… well that is debatable CE / fit for purse vs fit for purpose / poor knowledge.. debates start there after.
• During the past three years we have seen a growth in demand from newcomers into the hobby who have a lot of enthusiasm, but very little knowledge. Some follow good guidance, and others follow crap guidance.. extensively be it on Youtube or elsewhere, and then they feel that they know everything. We all follow what we believe in, regardless of how good or bad the information is. This results in complaints which aren't really an issue.
• Control and balance of ego, perception, expectation based on price a person wishes to pay, and poor knowledge, are always a concern.
• Creative marketing by certain sellers also has a contributing factor to play in the complaints.

Ketan at ARC.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by JasonB on 07/05/2020 07:29:23:

Enough of this, Stevie once again you are getting close to racist and Bill is pushing his luck too.

Maybe a look at the "Production Strength" video on this page will educate you to what modern Far Eastern industry is actually like even at the hobby machine level, hardly a manual machine in site.

Also why state that Asian taps are cheap, that is again a broard generalisation when there are very high spec taps and all sorts of tooling coming out of the Asian continent, I know my KG-1 taps and inserts out of Korea were not cheap. Same as your general statement about round column mills which again was incorrect as several posting here have confirmed.

Edited By JasonB on 07/05/2020 07:30:39

I have never mentioned round column mills. Someone else may have. As for middle east I am sorry if I have upset you. Not intended. I know some good & even better than our gear comes out of Japan. Look at their cars & motorcycles. As for taps. My point should have been you get what you pay for. A cheap tap or die is never going to last as long as a good quality version. Also yes I see how we can all slip in a comment about we know nothing a few weeks ago & suddenly we are experts. That is true with me. I have little experience with milling & are having to learn the hard way. But getting there slowly. As for knowledge on buying equipment I would have thought that maybe that was a different subject altogether. I read the forum posts & watch a lot of youtube video's including yours.

Maybe I am totally wrong with that & because in yesteryear we had no internet. We could not read what people had said about the rubbish Myford/ Harrison/ Colchester etc machines that were made here or in the US.

So again sorry to offend you. By the way I do have a lot of Asian equipment in my garage & it all works as intended.

Steve.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by not done it yet on 07/05/2020 08:33:57:

JB is spot on.

Just think back to the motorcycle issue of the 1960s. The Japanese imports took over from the out-dated British motorcycle industry for exactly the reason that the British machinery was old and not as precise as the then modern Japanese manufacturing production lines.

If a new Chinese hobby lathe today were as well designed, well made, precise, reliable and durable as the 1969 Honda 750/4, at less than the cost of its British competition as it was, I'd have one in my shed for sure. The Japanese bikes set revolutionary new standards for precision, performance, reliability and durability. They were second to none, including the twice as expensive BMWs…

As good as the Chinese lathes may be for the price etc, they have not set the same kind of revolutionary new standards of precision and quality the Japanese motorcycles did. I don't see a comparison at all.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

As good as the Chinese lathes may be for the price etc, they have not set the same kind of revolutionary new standards of precision and quality the Japanese motorcycles did. I don't see a comparison at all.

It was just an example. I very much doubt the UK could manufacture, and market, lathes and mills of the quality that can come from China at competitive prices. The UK can now use the exact same manufacturing machinery, or even better, but that will not beat the price of chinese origin machines.

One difference in the old UK manufacturing industry was that second rate machines/parts (basically manufacturing rejects) were not sold on to third parties who then sold complete ‘out of spec’ machines to unsuspecting end users!

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by not done it yet on 08/05/2020 08:17:07:

One difference in the old UK manufacturing industry was that second rate machines/parts (basically manufacturing rejects) were not sold on to third parties who then sold complete ‘out of spec’ machines to unsuspecting end users!

Except for things like the Norton Commando 750 Combat with self-exploding main bearings at 3,000 miles. Or the Matchie twins with self-snapping crankshafts. Triumph twins with cylinders bored at an angle to the base surface. Or BSA twins in 1969 with porous cylinder head castings. Or the Norton gearbox layshaft bearings that failed regularly and locked the transmission up, smashing the casing. Oh no, wait. They were not sold out the back door. They were on the dealership floors.

I doubt too that UK could match Chinese labour costs, or working conditions like these Chinese factory workers: Take a minute to watch it. It is mind boggling to say the least. The other end of the spectrum from the Sieg factory!

 

Edited By Hopper on 08/05/2020 10:34:55

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