Aircraft General Discussion

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by ady on 23/12/2010 00:50:09:

The Northrop F-5A/B Freedom Fighter and F-5E/F Tiger II are part of a family of widely used light supersonic fighter aircraft, designed and built by Northrop in the United States, beginning in the 1960s. Hundreds remain in service in air forces around the world in the early 21st Century, and the type has also been the basis for a number of other aircraft.

Straight up and straight down.

If you wanted a cheap supersonic aircraft it was the obvious candidate but don't expect much for your money. Mind you if you were a third world country that was friendly with Russia you could get MIG21s with pilots. I know who I would bet on.

JA

 

Edited By JA on 07/10/2016 23:08:23

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

When I was working at Heathrow, the 1030 Concord(e) departure used to be accompanied by the additional noise of most of the car alarms in the Cranebank multi storey going off! The sound of Freedom expensive travel

rgds

Bill

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

I don't get much opportunity to get close and intimate with reheat nowadays, but while we were over in England, I happened to be standing directly below a Typhoon when it went vertical, looking straight up the jet pipes. It was ear searingly loud and from memory louder than the Lightnings and Phantoms. 'Course my ears are somewhat older now.

On the opposite tack, commercial aircraft (now that Concord(e) is out of the picture) are so quiet. The advent of the fan jet was a huge step and now watching the A380 lift off, it's almost an anticlimax. Visually wow though! Remember the racket that the old 737s made climbing out at a steep angle.

The boss says I must be getting old, 'cos I keep reminiscing………

Ian

[JAParticipant @ja]

Apologies for my last posting. I entered the topic from the "More Latest Posts….." and was caught by the fact that you see the first page and not the last.

JA

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JA on 08/10/2016 09:12:04:

Apologies for my last posting. I entered the topic from the "More Latest Posts….." and was caught by the fact that you see the first page and not the last.

JA

Not if you put in your profile that you want to see the most recent page first.

Neil

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/10/2016 15:45:15:

Posted by JA on 08/10/2016 09:12:04:

Apologies for my last posting. I entered the topic from the "More Latest Posts….." and was caught by the fact that you see the first page and not the last.

JA

Not if you put in your profile that you want to see the most recent page first.

Neil

Go on tell me more, I've looked in 'my profile' and can't find anything

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

Ian, another noisy so-and-so we had in this area was the Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft, based just along the coast at what was RAF Kinloss (now an Army base). In basis it was a 1960s Comet airliner, and the filthy smoke it put out on take-off had to be seen to be believed. Why it was never replaced by a more modern aircraft years ago I will never fathom out, and we are currently without any maritime patrol capability until the new Boeing aircraft arrives at RAF Lossiemouth.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by duncan webster on 08/10/2016 17:14:45:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/10/2016 15:45:15:

Posted by JA on 08/10/2016 09:12:04:

Apologies for my last posting. I entered the topic from the "More Latest Posts….." and was caught by the fact that you see the first page and not the last.

JA

Not if you put in your profile that you want to see the most recent page first.

Neil

Go on tell me more, I've looked in 'my profile' and can't find anything

Settings > My Account > default to last

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Mike on 08/10/2016 17:33:55:

Ian, another noisy so-and-so we had in this area was the Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft, based just along the coast at what was RAF Kinloss (now an Army base). In basis it was a 1960s Comet airliner, and the filthy smoke it put out on take-off had to be seen to be believed. Why it was never replaced by a more modern aircraft years ago I will never fathom out, and we are currently without any maritime patrol capability until the new Boeing aircraft arrives at RAF Lossiemouth.

Comet 1 first flew in 1949!

Apparently the Nimrod was introduced as comet was withdrawn and had different engines.

Neil

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/10/2016 17:44:24:

Posted by duncan webster on 08/10/2016 17:14:45:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/10/2016 15:45:15:

Posted by JA on 08/10/2016 09:12:04:

Apologies for my last posting. I entered the topic from the "More Latest Posts….." and was caught by the fact that you see the first page and not the last.

JA

Not if you put in your profile that you want to see the most recent page first.

Neil

Go on tell me more, I've looked in 'my profile' and can't find anything

Settings > My Account > default to last

Yipee!

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Mike on 08/10/2016 17:33:55:

Ian, another noisy so-and-so we had in this area was the Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft, based just along the coast at what was RAF Kinloss (now an Army base). In basis it was a 1960s Comet airliner, and the filthy smoke it put out on take-off had to be seen to be believed. Why it was never replaced by a more modern aircraft years ago I will never fathom out, and we are currently without any maritime patrol capability until the new Boeing aircraft arrives at RAF Lossiemouth.

The original Comet was underpowered by DH Ghost engines. The Comet 4, introduced after the Comet disasters, had second generation RR Avons. Both were noisy and the Avon engines would have been quite smokey.

The Nimrod anti-submarine aircraft was a much modified Comet with RR Speys. This aircraft would have been quieter but not compared with a modern airliner. It would have still been smokey and perhaps quite smokey (I am not doubting you). The last stage of the Comet's evolution was the AWACS reconnaissance aircraft. This proved, technically, a step too far. It was to use civil high bypass engines made by BRR (at the time a company jointly owned by BMW and RR) buried in the wings. This aircraft would have been quiet and smoke free. The AWACS would have replaced the Nimrod but was quietly cancelled leaving us with a big hole in our defences.

JA

[JAParticipant @ja]

Neil – Thanks, I will modify my profile.

I was rather looking forward to a rant about early supersonic aircraft.

JA

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Nimrod AEW (not AWACS) was a completely different beast to the Maritime serveillance version. I'm talking radar systems predominantly rather than airframe. The latest sea searcher radar was scrapped near to completion when the Banking world went belly up 10 years ago. As per usual the Government needed to be seen to be doing something so instead of mothballing they broke them up. Interestingly the Maritime nimrod had arguably one of it's best sorties over the piper alpha fire as command and control for the rescue. Perhaps the reluctance to move to a different airframe was time over target which was pretty exceptional. It's not unusual for old military airframes to last very long times. I would expect most if not all of the B52's to be well older than their crews.

regards Martin

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Re. 'smoky' engines, the early 707s were apalling smoke generators – think badly serviced diesels times 10!! By comparison, the Comets were much less so. Snippet from a Flight magazine Roger Bacon column of that era (possibly apocryphal) … BOAC Comet captain requesting take-off clearance behind a typically smoky 707 departure "Request instrument take-off behind the 707" Before the Tower could respond, the PanAm (for such it was) skipper came back with "One day, when you're grown up, Sonny, you'll be allowed to smoke too!"

Less traffic, more banter, different days!

rgds

Bill

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Speys bled some air off the compressor for the seal air system. This was used to pressurize one side of the labyrinth seals to keep oil on the working side of the seal and the seal air system vented out the side of the engine. At full power the pressure on the working side of the seals was higher than the seal air pressure and some oil was carried through the seals and into the non working side where it was vented out the side. This was probably what made them smokey on take-off. The F4 phantoms had speys that vented over the wing. The result was that a lot of ground crew did a very ungainly (imagine random arm waving) slide across the wing when getting down off the spine onto the wing when it was raining and there was an oil and water mix over the wing surface.

Martin

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Our P-3K2 Orions are 50 years old this year, and the C-130 K Hercules are 52 years old. Both types due for replacement in the next ten or so years.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 10/10/2016 10:36:46

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

We don't appreciate how much quieter modern aircraft are compared to their predecessors. I served 22 years in the Air Force as an aircraft technician which meant that I was up close and personal with very noisy military aircraft in the sixties, having spent a very busy year in what was then Trucial Oman during the pull out from Aden in 67, now wear two hearing aids to compensate for substantial noise induced hearing loss, can remember enduring physical pain in my ears when starting and dispatching aircraft. Later in my career the noisiest was probably the Lightning especially when reheat was engaged.

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

I have two abiding memories of "LOUD" and impressive – Standing on the road at the end of the runway of RAF Waddington in the late 70's with a Vulcan passing directly overhead on take off and standing in the Heathrow North Perimeter Business Car Park when Concorde took off.

If I had to live with 'em then give me modern turbo-fans any day.

Jon

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

The noisiest a/c I remember was at an airshow at R-R Hucknall when the star guests were the Blue Angels flying Phantoms. They were so load that every dog locally was barking and every child at the airshow was crying. The noise was so loud that there never was another airshow.

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

When we lived on the Hucknall approach, we were about 2 ½ miles away. In those days they had the outdoor engine testing duct…… Conversation in the garden was strained, heaven knows what it was like living next door.

Ian

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

About the noisiest aircraft I have worked near to was NASA's Lockheed U-2 that they were using in the mid 1960s for high altitude research flights out of Christchurch (NZ). The aircraft had to keep it's airspeed down to below 150kts at low altitude, so it climbed slowly at a high angle. It's support aircraft wasn't too quiet either, it was a B-47.

Ian S C

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

The Mosquito in the photo a couple of pages back is all packed up, and ready for shipping to the USA,having finished it flight testing. When it gets to the States it will get painted in the colours it's owner wants. The next one is out in the hanger being fitted out, it's due for completion in March 2017, and will stay in NZ until 2018.

Ian S C

[robjon44Participant @robjon44]

Hi chaps, I always think that an unexpected sighting of a classic aircraft is a bonus, last Friday ploughing up the A15 past RAF Scampton in the campervan checked for sightings of Red Arrows but no joy, buckled down for the long haul to North Yorkshire but just as I got to the northern end of the airfield there was a tremendous roar & a Hawker Hunter ripped across about 100 yards ahead at about 80 feet, wheels already half way into the wells, it turned away so I could see the instantly recognisable cross section with wing tanks & right into the tailpipe, that set me up for the day!

Anyway, in a similar vein, in years long gone by I spotted several times whilst traversing the north shore of the River Humber the old Humbrol factory of Airfix plastic aircraft kits & the little tinlets of paint for them, outside there was a full size Hunter mounted on a pillar in the manner of a gate guardian, eventually the aircraft & the factory disappeared without trace. Fast forward to the present day, further up the coast overlooking the Humber Estuary is a large museum called Fort Paull, originally built for that nice King Henry the Eighth as a coastal battery to defend the estuary, it was updated over the centuries for that purpose, big old Armstrong guns etcetera etcetera, when we visited it 2 years ago, apart from all the artillery & underground magazines & display areas yes you guessed it there was the very Hunter from the Humbrol factory in apple pie order! They also have the only intact Blackburn Beverley transport plane, which is a big boy if ever I saw one, that you can clamber all over, & finally a Blackburn triplane specifically made for use against Zeppelin airships in WW1, they had more than their fair share of that in the Hull area in those days. So hope some of these ramblings may point some folk toward places worth a visit

later Robjon44

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Here's the next Mossie into the hanger for fitting out over the next few months.

With thanks to Slackie/RNZAF Pro Boards

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 19/10/2016 14:04:17

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Regarding the posts on Comet, Nimrod & AEW, some years ago I used to work on Typhoon, Nimrod and others and heard that the reason for the demise of Nimrod was that they were all to be upgraded with new wings etc and the wings were built to the drawings and were spot on. The problem was that the RAF had carried out field repairs and mods over many years and so it was very hit and miss as to wether or not the wings would fit the fuselages!

It was probably a good excuse to cancel the project.

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