I have a friend who spent much of his working life in China, as a Rep for his Firm.

He has to laugh when he hears people sneering at Chinees machines/tools ect.

He says that what he and others were allowed to see there was every bit as good as anything in Europe, and he could just imagine what they were NOT allowed to see.

He said, “Yeah, they make junk, like the rest of us, but make no mistake, they make the other stuff too “. Seems to be the case.

On 18 January 2026 at 12:11 Hollowpoint Said:

I think the Chinese now produce mostly decent stuff, but where they aren’t so good (IMO) is in quality control and finishing. But I imagine that is to keep costs down.

I once had to test the runout for about 40 small Chinese made chucks and the results were quite surprising. The chucks were identical but from two different sources. They were all tested while holding 3 various diameters of HSS. Most of the chucks from source (A) where sub standard with only one or two good ones in the mix. The majority of the chucks from source (B) were good with just a couple of horrendously bad ones in the mix.

Most of the chucks were just average. Some where amazingly accurate, a few shocking. To test them all took ages. That’s were the Chinese make savings.

Hollowpoint assumes manufacturing depends on national characteristics, but that’s not how the world works.   Manufacturing has globalised.  Many brands once associated with a home country now belong to multinationals who operate anywhere that suits them, producing quality at any level the customer wants, from too cheap to aerospace.

Taking Dormer as an example:

• Originally a British owned British company who manufactured in England.
• Moved manufacture to Italy and then Mexico.  No drop in quality because it depends on process, machinery and training, not individuals.
• Merged with Pramet in 2014.  Pramet were Czech until 2012 when they were taken over by the IPS Group (USA),
• I believe Dormer-Pramet moved production to Brazil and it’s still there, maybe.  Again no drop in quality
• Dormer-Pramet were acquired by Sandvik Machining Solutions (Swedish), who are a subdivision of Sandvik
• I think Sandvik are Swedish, but the group is multinational.  It manufactures in Germany, UK, USA, Holland, China, Japan, Australia, Spain, Chile, Serbia, Singapore, Austria, Croatia, Poland, Finland, India, Congo, Norway, Algeria, South Africa, and France.  Probably more.  Operations in Russia are being wound down because of the war in Ukraine.

Even more confused when multinationals operate under Swiss Law and register in Eire or Luxembourg or the Isle of Man for tax.

Times have changed.   Manufacturing doesn’t depend on people or location much.  CAD/CAM, robots, and automation have led to massive de-skilling, whilst scientific method makes it all but impossible to keep trade secrets  Today, businesses can manufacture almost anywhere in the world.  They usually go wherever costs are low: materials, tax, transport, labour, and energy.  Skills that can be met by training aren’t a problem when so much has been deskilled.

Very different from what went on before about 1970.  Now rarely matters where stuff is made or what flags the workforce wave.    Whilst some are keen to rubbish Chinese quality throughout, the evidence is that Chinese mid- and high-range goods are as good as any.

Denying the evidence that China is competent leads to solving the wrong problem.   When a competitor steals your livelihood by selling acceptable goods at a lower price, burbling nonsense about “quality”, cheating, and the good old days does no good whatever.  Neithe does casting aspersions and encouraging boycotts.  The answer is to innovate, modernise, boost productivity, and sell what customers want at a price they’re prepared to pay.  Prejudice and resisting change are counter-productive.

Painful, and often involves shooting sacred cows.

Dave

On 18 January 2026 at 13:50 SillyOldDuffer Said:

On 18 January 2026 at 12:11 Hollowpoint Said:

I think the Chinese now produce mostly decent stuff, but where they aren’t so good (IMO) is in quality control and finishing. But I imagine that is to keep costs down.

I once had to test the runout for about 40 small Chinese made chucks and the results were quite surprising. The chucks were identical but from two different sources. They were all tested while holding 3 various diameters of HSS. Most of the chucks from source (A) where sub standard with only one or two good ones in the mix. The majority of the chucks from source (B) were good with just a couple of horrendously bad ones in the mix.

Most of the chucks were just average. Some where amazingly accurate, a few shocking. To test them all took ages. That’s were the Chinese make savings.

Hollowpoint assumes manufacturing depends on national characteristics, but that’s not how the world works.   Manufacturing has globalised.  Many brands once associated with a home country now belong to multinationals who operate anywhere that suits them, producing quality at any level the customer wants, from too cheap to aerospace.

Taking Dormer as an example:

• Originally a British owned British company who manufactured in England.
• Moved manufacture to Italy and then Mexico.  No drop in quality because it depends on process, machinery and training, not individuals.
• Merged with Pramet in 2014.  Pramet were Czech until 2012 when they were taken over by the IPS Group (USA),
• I believe Dormer-Pramet moved production to Brazil and it’s still there, maybe.  Again no drop in quality
• Dormer-Pramet were acquired by Sandvik Machining Solutions (Swedish), who are a subdivision of Sandvik
• I think Sandvik are Swedish, but the group is multinational.  It manufactures in Germany, UK, USA, Holland, China, Japan, Australia, Spain, Chile, Serbia, Singapore, Austria, Croatia, Poland, Finland, India, Congo, Norway, Algeria, South Africa, and France.  Probably more.  Operations in Russia are being wound down because of the war in Ukraine.

Even more confused when multinationals operate under Swiss Law and register in Eire or Luxembourg or the Isle of Man for tax.

Times have changed.   Manufacturing doesn’t depend on people or location much.  CAD/CAM, robots, and automation have led to massive de-skilling, whilst scientific method makes it all but impossible to keep trade secrets  Today, businesses can manufacture almost anywhere in the world.  They usually go wherever costs are low: materials, tax, transport, labour, and energy.  Skills that can be met by training aren’t a problem when so much has been deskilled.

Very different from what went on before about 1970.  Now rarely matters where stuff is made or what flags the workforce wave.    Whilst some are keen to rubbish Chinese quality throughout, the evidence is that Chinese mid- and high-range goods are as good as any.

Denying the evidence that China is competent leads to solving the wrong problem.   When a competitor steals your livelihood by selling acceptable goods at a lower price, burbling nonsense about “quality”, cheating, and the good old days does no good whatever.  Neithe does casting aspersions and encouraging boycotts.  The answer is to innovate, modernise, boost productivity, and sell what customers want at a price they’re prepared to pay.  Prejudice and resisting change are counter-productive.

Painful, and often involves shooting sacred cows.

Dave

 

 

It seems mr old duffer, prefers “in theory” rather than real world experience. I am not anti Chinese by any measure. It’s quite ironic actually, because If you knew what I do for a living you might not be so quick to assume.

Literally no one. Not even me. Has ever said that China can’t produce ANY good products.

Dormer is an interesting choice of example. You mentioned that after production was moved overseas from Britain that there was no drop in quality. You also say this is probably down to process, machinery and training.

TRAINING! How odd! Wouldn’t that suggest some people have more knowledge/experience than others? It’s almost like decades of knowledge was transferred along with the production.

In rainbow unicorn world, where everyone is just naturally equal in every area, surely training wouldn’t have been needed? In fact there should be world class cutting tool manufacturers in every corner of the globe. Unfortunately there isn’t. Because reality exists.

The problem is not limited to model engineering. There is a lot of very substandard aftermarket replacement car parts coming out of China. Cheap metals or other materials, poor heat treatment, loose tolerances  poor fit, shoddy ball and roller bearings. You name it. Same for motorcycle parts. You can buy brand new replica bike and car carburettors dirt cheap. Problem is they simply don’t work right. They look great  but the miniscule precision air passages and fuel jets are wrongly made and impossible to tune. But they are unbelievably cheap to buy.

And please note, being critical of very real problems with some/many engineering products coming out of China is not prejudice, xenophobia or racism. It’s simply realism. There are massive problems there that very definitely do exist. Nothing to do with Chinese people as a whole. Just some of their products. Dismissing such honest evaluation as prejudice or xenophobia is a cop out.

On 18 January 2026 at 20:32 Hollowpoint Said:

On 18 January 2026 at 13:50 SillyOldDuffer Said:

On 18 January 2026 at 12:11 Hollowpoint Said:

I think the Chinese now produce mostly decent stuff, but where they aren’t so good (IMO) is in quality control and finishing…

Hollowpoint assumes manufacturing depends on national characteristics, but that’s not how the world works.   Manufacturing has globalised.  ../

 

Times have changed.   Manufacturing doesn’t depend on people or location much.  CAD/CAM, robots, and automation have led to massive de-skilling, whilst scientific method makes it all but impossible to keep trade secrets  Today, businesses can manufacture almost anywhere in the world.  They usually go wherever costs are low: materials, tax, transport, labour, and energy.  Skills that can be met by training aren’t a problem when so much has been deskilled.

…Dave

 

 

It seems mr old duffer, prefers “in theory” rather than real world experience.

An incorrect assumption!   High-fever, nightmares, lies, and booze apart, all my experiences were real-world.

 

I am not anti Chinese by any measure. It’s quite ironic actually, because If you knew what I do for a living you might not be so quick to assume.

I’m not assuming anything, least of all based on what Hollowpoint does for a living:no idea what that is.  No point in Hollowpoint mentioning it unless he explains how it’s relevant.  And I have not accused any forum member of being anti-chinese.  If Hollowpoint assumes that, let me put his mind at rest.

… Not even me. Has ever said that China can’t produce ANY good products.. …

“Not even me“!  Odd choice of words, is it a confession?

Dormer is an interesting choice of example. You mentioned that after production was moved overseas from Britain that there was no drop in quality. You also say this is probably down to process, machinery and training.

Agree.  Process, machinery and training are enablers that allow manufacturing move around the world, ever more freely as time passes.

TRAINING! How odd! Wouldn’t that suggest some people have more knowledge/experience than others? It’s almost like decades of knowledge was transferred along with the production.

Nothing odd about training but it’s only a small part of what’ influences where best to manufacture.  Globalisation,  automation, cost and the other factors I mentioned are more influential.  Of course decades of knowledge are transferred along with production.   High-level mostly, not practical skills.   When a multinational is deciding where to put a new factory making, say, EV batteries, what the locals know about batteries may not matter at all.  UK versus Eswatini is decided by cost-benefit.

Often as not the commercial goal is to reduce labour costs, often by mechanising and deskilling.  Not new: the process started in Britain in the 18th Century by industrialising textile production.   Now when production moves and skills are replaced by technology it’s becoming ever less necessary to train machinists by traditional methods, or to import basic learning from abroad.  Innovation requires education. talent and aptitude:  unskilled and semi-skilled jobs only need training.

In rainbow unicorn world,

No such thing, it’s a fantasy.   Doesn’t stop us promoting tolerance, justice and fair-play though.  Anyone here against tolerance, justice and fair-play?

 

where everyone is just naturally equal in every area, surely training wouldn’t have been needed?

No-one is naturally equal in every area, therefore training is always needed in some form.  Schoolchildren for example.  Point is that minimal training is required after a manufacturing process has been deskilled and people anywhere can be trained to do it.   Not difficult unless the manufacturing process is unusual.

The world is changing.  Much of what I did in my early career is being replaced by AI.  In the past. starting before WW1, most manual turning jobs were gradually displaced by automatics, numerical control, and increasingly sophisticated computer numeric control.  Large numbers of drawing office staff were replaced by CAD, and many middle-men by CAM.  Now it’s a short step from a CAD workstation in the UK to an 11-axis machine centre in China, with very few skilled people in the loop.

 

In fact there should be world class cutting tool manufacturers in every corner of the globe. Unfortunately there isn’t.

Read the Dormer example again.  Sandvik operate in 22 different countries on all continents.  They’re just an example.  I can’t think of an individual country that produces world-class cutting tools.

 

Because reality exists.

It does.  But I suggest it’s identified by facts and evidence, not suspicion, prejudice, ignorance or intolerant opinion.  Preferring facts and evidence to untested assumptions and faulty logic shouldn’t be controversial.

Decision making based on suspicion is particularly unwelcome because it leads to injustice, which is appalling.  For that reason jurors are reminded to base their decisions on the evidence, not on what they suspect.  Last thing a jury needs is the sort of fool who believes all men with beards are wrong ‘uns, or similar nonsense.

Suspicion is important, but only as the first step.  In so far as possible try to confirm it’s justified by fact checking before acting.   Failing to do so causes terrible problems.

Dave

A lot of amateurs don’t have the training to tell good from bad, a fact some suppliers capitalise on.

But I have to say I have I have been happy enough with all my Aliexpress tooling etc, and I do have the training and experience to know.