where will the next generation of engineers come from

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Try this

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

> Shouldn't this have been taught at school?.

Depends what the pupil thinks his future is. I took GED at O-level because I wanted to be an enginbeer,. and became an environmentalist

My stepson 'fell' into boat maintainance and has decided he wants to do full blown engineering as a result.

Neil

P.S. 'Engineer' is originally the word for the person who looks after the engine, not the man who designs or makes it.

[60019Participant @60019]

Let's try and brighten a rainy (UK) Monday morning by taking a look at this and noting the position of Engineers in a Trust/Don't Trust survey of 12 professions.

Mike

PS OK, I'm a bit miffed that we were pushed out of a medal winning position by teachers, but Terry and other teachers on this forum can take a well deserved round of applause.

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

What neither I, nor SWMBO (ex-teacher) understands is why so many people trust doctors so much? There don't appear to be grounds for this level of 'trust' at all.

Where will the next generation of what we currently refer to as Engineers come from? Same places that they always have, assuming that there's any demand for them here in the UK, which is looking increasingly less likely. What's more intriguing is what all the frustrated would-be engineers are going to do instead… although it does make the future of MEW look a little brighter, doesn't it?

Unfotunately there doesn't appear to be much call for engineering in UK tourism and Museums plc – the country's only growth sector.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

We used to have a saying at College, those that can, do, those that cannot, teach and those that cannot teach, set case studies! Case studies of course do not have a set answer, only opinions and findings.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

They won't be called engineers anyway as 'Human Resources' think up silly names all the time. I have recently moved from being a 'Solutions Designer' to 'Architect' as electronics engineer probably isn't in their drop down menu to click on.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Ah well, the Minister in charge of earthquake recovery, was a wood work teacher in another life.

Engineers(Civil/ Structural) arn't faring too well in Christchurch, no ones been found guilty of anything (yet). The reason that the building that had the most casulties collapsed was that the engineer that designed it did'nt know that he did'nt know what he was doing, and his boss did'nt bother checking! Ian S C

[Trevor WrightParticipant @trevorwright62541]

We took on a CNC programmer/operator recently with 15 years experience in the trade – he cannot work a manual machine………I kid you not…..

I am a skilled miller/fitter/turner according to my indentures, but my current company re-defined me as a skilled precision machinist – sorry, but don't they work sewing machines?

As an apprentice there was no guarantee of a job at the end – there was – but there were 400 apprentices out of 2500 staff at any one time, could you see that happening now?

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Anyone looking for a lab based apprentiship in the Pompy area….I got one going??

[joegibParticipant @joegib]

Posted by Trevor Wright on 24/09/2012 13:00:47:

I am a skilled miller/fitter/turner according to my indentures, but my current company re-defined me as a skilled precision machinist – sorry, but don't they work sewing machines?

He, he, glad someone professionally involved in engineering said that. I remember scanning the job ads as a lad and the call 'Machinists wanted' only ever appeared in the rag trade section — as you say, seeking ladies to drive sewing machines! I don't think I've ever seen/heard a British engineering tradesman called a machinist. Gawd'elpus, I see the MEW cover now carries the banner 'Tools, Techniques and Projects for the Home Workshop Machinist'. Are the publishers trying to emasculate us? Not really, they're trying to Americanise us. Which is worse? Hmm, can I think about it?

Joe

Edited By joegib on 24/09/2012 14:21:06

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

For a decade or so schools have not had Metal work or Wood work on their curriculums so there is a general lack of interest by young people in taking up something they do not know about.

If schools now introduced said items on the curriculum then interest would be raised and a better class of student would appear, that is with motivation and a certain goal in life instead of sitting at a console pushing buttons.

An Engineer is an engineer what ever part of engineering they follow.

Why do Model engineers follow the path they do ? Perhaps in satisfaction of doing something in life that they cannot do at work.

How often do I read, 'I have just retired and am going to take up model engineering and have bought a Lathe, what do I do now .'

Its a lucky man who can pursue a hobby fulltime and like it. Having the where withall to do it.

I wish I had the money to buy what I want to use, but I still have to work to do it. There are many Inventor engineers and they do create some small profit but they have to jump through hoops to get there.

Clive

Edited By Clive Hartland on 24/09/2012 15:02:10

[Geoff SheppardParticipant @geoffsheppard46476]

Sorry to disagree, but the term 'machinist' has always been a familiar one to me. When I started my apprenticeship in the aircraft industry back in the early 1950's, one of the apprentice grades was 'Machinist and Fitter' , these being expected to become proficient on a wide variety of machines. As it happened, many of these became draughtsmen or jig and tool designers after a few years. Most of the long-serving machine operators came from the 'Trade' grade. The terms we used for the engineer grades were 'Aeronautical' or 'Student' depending upon the type of academic training one was to receive. A skilled machinist was always held in high regard, capable of producing precision components from exotic materials, using (for the time) quite sophisticated equipment.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi JoeGibb

Not trying to Americanise you.

However, we sell to the American market and the banner across the top is designed to wake them up and get them to buy Model Engineers' Workshop.

regards David

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Yes David but everyone who has a workshop isn't necessarily a model engineer.

I feel the cousins have it labelled better with Home Shop Machinist.

Many of my friends have workshops, none make models, their workshops are usually to support another hobby.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Trevor Wright on 24/09/2012 13:00:47:

We took on a CNC programmer/operator recently with 15 years experience in the trade – he cannot work a manual machine………I kid you not…..

.

Why should he have to ?

A CNC programmer / operator is a different trade to a centre lathe turner.

Can the centre lathe turner program a CNC ?

John S.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi John

Yes the Americans have but we can't use a name they already use.

I have a name sorted out for the US market but am awaiting permission to give it a try.

regards David

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi John

One of the biggest problems I had in industry was CNC programers (millers) who could not mill.

Any fool can program a CNC but they can't mill so they do stupid things.

regards David

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

David, just up the road from me is an aerospace company, they have something like 25 CNC mills, 3 of which are the latest 5 axis DMG at £5000,000 a pop, and 3 CNC lathes.

None of their guys can use a manual machine.

It's just a different learing curve.

Their big Haas mill with 2 metre bed is programmed to run flat out all day, 18,000 rev spindle and all moves are G00 rapid moves. The only variables is depth of cut and step over.

Possibly years ago you had a transition where manual guys moved to CNC but now it's all about being trained to use CNC.

Top end program's run what is known as HSM, high speed machining, tooling is chosen for this.

Ask Ketan, when he was looking at some inserted tooling the tooling people were quoting totally insane feed rates. So both of us went up the road and spoke to the guy one one of the 5 axis machine [ who incidentally program's his own two machines and he's not a fool, I'd like to see some guys program some of the jobs they do ] and asked him if they could use this tooling?

The answer was no, not on the current machines they are running and to get close to what the tooling people were saying they would have to fit the upgraded spindle from 25Kw at 24,000 revs to 35Kw at 42,000 revs.

So tooling at the moment is better designed than most machines that run it. Not much good giving this to a manual miller then is it ?

John S.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 23/09/2012 19:51:14:

—————————-

Neil

P.S. 'Engineer' is originally the word for the person who looks after the engine, not the man who designs or makes it.

That was an Americanism. As Michael Gilligan says above, the word engineer is derived from the French 'Ingenieur':

engineer / ˌendʒɪˈnɪə(r)/

1. noun (graduate) ingénieur m; (note the term 'graduate&#39

This in turn is derived from the latin root ':

L. ingenium "inborn qualities, talent"

The word 'genius' derives from the same root.

The downplaying of the term 'Engineer' is what puts many off entering the profession as they see a higher status in the other professions such as Accounting and the Law as opposed to the high status accorded to Engineering in countries such as Germany.

The American definition of 'engineer' came about in the 1840s whereas the term Engineer as described above was first used in the 14thC apparently. In England the great engineers of the 18th and 19th century such as Maudslay and Whitwirth et al were described as 'mechanicians', the word is still used in France to describe a sklilled workshop craftsman.

As an aside, the term 'sapper' as used to describe the Mechanical Engineering soldiers of REME (my dad was one in WW2) is again derived from the French 'Sappeur' which is part of the work of their fire brigade who are known as Les 'Pompiers and Sappeurs'.

Best Regards

Terry

[The Merry MillerParticipant @themerrymiller]

Noticing the amount of foreign rubbish (could not think of the proper word, sorry) entering the country, there will be a massive requirement for maintenance engineers in the near future.

I'm pleased in a way because my grandson has just started his second year of a "Maintenance Engineering Apprenticeship" and it will ensure he will never be short of work.

Len. P.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Terry, I am 'Miffed', REME start as 'Craftsman' and progress to 'Artificer' status.

There is a difference in the two ratings as a 'Craftsman' can also progress and becomes an 'Artisan' rank.

Now a Royal Engineer is a 'Sapper' and his life expectancy in battle is about 5 minutes.

So you know what I became, an, 'Artisan/Sgt.' in REME.

Clive

Edited By Clive Hartland on 24/09/2012 19:52:07

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Thanks for teh correction Terry. I know that in the Europe a "Dr. Ing." is highly respected and calling yourself an engineer without an engineering degree is like feigning chartered status over here.

"How often do I read, 'I have just retired and am going to take up model engineering and have bought a Lathe, what do I do now .'"

Hmm that comment suggests teaching engineering stopped in the sixties!

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 24/09/2012 19:51:48:

So you know what I became, an, 'Artisan/Sgt.' in REME.

Clive

Which stands for Rough Engineering Made Easy………….

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by Trevor Wright on 24/09/2012 13:00:47:

We took on a CNC programmer/operator recently with 15 years experience in the trade – he cannot work a manual machine………I kid you not…..

I am a skilled miller/fitter/turner according to my indentures, but my current company re-defined me as a skilled precision machinist – sorry, but don't they work sewing machines?

As an apprentice there was no guarantee of a job at the end – there was – but there were 400 apprentices out of 2500 staff at any one time, could you see that happening now?

I am a fitter/turner/welder too and i have seen this "americanisation" of the trades creep in too , to me a machinist is a person who sews cloth on a sewing machine.

as too the whole subject of where the next generation of engineers and tradesmen will come from is a decision down to the uk government, it made me laugh to see a conservative prime minister give public addresses and talks in places such as the jcb manufacturing plant talking about apprenticeships and training for the young, ironic after another tory pm a few decades back couldn't wait to get rid of every last vestige of manufacturing abroad as the uk was going to be a "services and financial" based economy, ending 250 years of engineering tradition starting in coalbrookdale. a very sad sight.

but things look bright if the government supports engineering , after all honda in swindon has decided to double their vast car plant further.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi,

on the subject of 'apprenticeships' I recently read a comment by a government minister that there are now more 'apprentices' than in the '60s. However what was not said was is that most of these 'apprenticeships' are about a year long and with a very large UK supermarket chain.

We 'plebs' used to call those training schemes, not apprenticeships. Another downgrading by our betters,

Best regards

Terry

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