Todays news — well done

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Ray Lyons on 05/04/2020 21:51:56:

I assume that these people are also the types who do not wear face masks or wash their hands as recommended by the authorities.

Some of the youths local to me have long been very respectful of the face mask rule.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Those young folk should be safe enough as long as they keep out of Care Homes for the elderly.

That is where the real dangers lie.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 05/04/2020 22:20:23:

Posted by Ray Lyons on 05/04/2020 21:51:56:

I assume that these people are also the types who do not wear face masks or wash their hands as recommended by the authorities.

Some of the youths local to me have long been very respectful of the face mask rule.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Ray Lyons on 05/04/2020 21:51:56:

I assume that these people are also the types who do not wear face masks or wash their hands as recommended by the authorities. It seems that the rules do not apply equally across the country.

In a news item earlier this week we saw two women heavily fined for making rail journeys without a valid reason, yet we now hear that an advisor to the Scottish Parliament and a labour MP both made journeys away from home and were only advised of their errors by the police. Surely if the laws are to be creditable and acceptable then they must be applied equally to everyone

Equal rules for all, That’ll be the day!

Edited By V8Eng on 05/04/2020 23:26:44

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 05/04/2020 22:14:39:

The Scottish minister has now resigned.

Good. It's about time they brought the placards back with the big pointing finger. Your country needs you, so go home & stay alive.

Steve.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I was pretty disgusted all last week at the endless 2nd rate politicians being given air time to whine about how they thought of things weeks ago and each new initiative was really their idea. Not a bit of constructive suggestion in evidence and the sycophantic media jerks never pulling them up on their bid for publicity.

Anyway my current view of 'worse things happening' mentioned earlier is the problem with public transport. I think a mandatory masks and visors rule plus all windows open however cold the draught is for busses, tube and taxis should come in asap. Anyone think this would be pointless?

I have been eking my food out so probably healthier on half rations than I would normally be but will have to make a shop run before Easter. Should I wear a mask? Will it help?

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Does anyone know if you buy a frozen item & the packaging is contaminated. When you bring it home & put it in the freezer, does that freeze the virus. Just for it to come back at room temperature. ?????

Steve.

[Swarf MakerParticipant @swarfmaker85383]

There are some good 'biking' roads near me. They are so good that a 50mph speed limit has been imposed to try and curb the number of 'biker' fatalities. Summer Sundays the road becomes a race track where it would seem that the objective is not to let your speed fall below the 50mph speed limit.

Although I live 2 miles away, the sound of the screaming engines and accompanying clutch-less gear changes is actually intrusive as these bikes travel a twisty length of around 4 miles. There is all too frequently an intermission as the sirens of the police and ambulance vehicles attend the latest carnage.

Now we are confined to barracks of course, but that means nothing has changed for these inconsiderate idiots. All day long the 'race track' has been active and no doubt that, with reduced traffic, new end-to-end records have been set.

I anticipate that anyone 'losing it' would still expect to be put back together by our over-stretched hospital staff. I cannot find polite words to convey how I feel about their irresponsible actions.

This kind of behaviour is why I am a 'motorcyclist' and not a 'biker'!

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Swarf Maker on 06/04/2020 00:08:54:

There are some good 'biking' roads near me. They are so good that a 50mph speed limit has been imposed to try and curb the number of 'biker' fatalities. Summer Sundays the road becomes a race track where it would seem that the objective is not to let your speed fall below the 50mph speed limit.

Although I live 2 miles away, the sound of the screaming engines and accompanying clutch-less gear changes is actually intrusive as these bikes travel a twisty length of around 4 miles. There is all too frequently an intermission as the sirens of the police and ambulance vehicles attend the latest carnage.

Now we are confined to barracks of course, but that means nothing has changed for these inconsiderate idiots. All day long the 'race track' has been active and no doubt that, with reduced traffic, new end-to-end records have been set.

I anticipate that anyone 'losing it' would still expect to be put back together by our over-stretched hospital staff. I cannot find polite words to convey how I feel about their irresponsible actions.

This kind of behaviour is why I am a 'motorcyclist' and not a 'biker'!

Me too. Totally agree.

Steve.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

The people who are wilfully and openly flouting what have become laws, have only themselves to blame if as a result the Government does carry out today's threat that it can clamp down even harder, putting us all under house arrest apart from the necessary shopping, work, medical and livestock-care reasons.

There is though an aspect to it all that the authorities have not considered.

Most of us here are in model-engineering clubs of which many have costly, large-scale physical assets; but we are unique only in the types of assets, and by no means alone generally. There are all manner of sports, outdoor-pursuits and other special-interest societies; small museums, preserved railways and ships, social clubs, charities, church and village halls, the Scouts, WI… all run by volunteers locally at least, not as businesses.

How does anyone entrusted with any of this property, look after it in these restricted times?

It's hard to see logically why someone local can't pop in with one other (a spouse?) or alone but overseen by a safety contact by telephone, now and again to test smoke alarms, ensure no leaks or vermin, pick up letters, collect wind-blown litter, air the building for a couple of hours.

Yet officially this appears to be an illegal ' non-essential ' act, not deliberately so but because no-one in power realised that the country is awash with such voluntary activities and premises; all needing basic security attention, post collecting, and bills paying despite no income.

In not realising that, they would also have not known that these organisations all together must be of vast economic as well as cultural value to the nation.

What if a burglary, vandalism or a fire were to occur during this enforced neglect? Would the insurers entertain any claim? Of course not. They can hide behind force majeure ( or 'Act of God ' , the pandemic itself), and the neglect (ignoring its reason). They can refuse renewal let alone a claim if unpaid, even if because the notice was trapped un-read behind the club's locked front door – a hazard that club treasurers should bear in mind.

The insurance-companies' concern would not be for a society failing as a result, only for the lost premium income.

[Raphael GolezParticipant @raphaelgolez]

If they only knew what we are facing and going through. People that don't follow simple rules to help us fight this pandemic will realise how serious this is. I have seen 32 new admitted patient on my last on call duty and 12 suspected COVID19. 8 pending, 4 positive and 2 sadly went. I have to face this day in day out, I see what it can do and instill great anxiety and respect (i would avoid saying fear). If they can only see what I can see then maybe they might decide to lock down themselves. I would again go to work tomorrow and do a head count. It is getting worse and we have to do our best. I can only say stay safe and follow the advice. We from the medical fields are trying our best to help and we are learning as we go along.

Edited By RAPHAEL VAL GOLEZ 1 on 06/04/2020 00:45:54

[Swarf MakerParticipant @swarfmaker85383]

Every thing that you Raphael, and your colleagues do, is truly appreciated by anybody with a modicum of understanding.

Unfortunately, circumstances such as these can illuminate the differences in both intellect and understanding across the wide ranging members of our society.

I sincerely hope that you and your colleagues remain safe, both for your own sakes and for the rest of us.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

A comment from another "Motorcyclist" I have been riding now for over 55 years and very rarely do I use a clutch for up changes on a bike. So much smoother without. Having said that I always use the clutch on my hand change bike.

[Steve Skelton 1Participant @steveskelton1]

Posted by Steviegtr on 06/04/2020 00:03:23:

Does anyone know if you buy a frozen item & the packaging is contaminated. When you bring it home & put it in the freezer, does that freeze the virus. Just for it to come back at room temperature. ?????

Steve.

Hi Steve, during a report on the BBC recently they said that, although their is no proof, the belief is that Coronavirus is not killed by freezing but just remains dormant. The advice is to wipe any packages with a disinfectant prior to freezing so that on defrosting (and it becomes active again) it is not transferred onto other surfaces if it is present.

Best to dispose of any cardboard packaging before putting it in the freezer.

Cheers Steve

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Swarf Maker on 06/04/2020 01:03:06:

Every thing that you Raphael, and your colleagues do, is truly appreciated by anybody with a modicum of understanding.

Unfortunately, circumstances such as these can illuminate the differences in both intellect and understanding across the wide ranging members of our society.

I sincerely hope that you and your colleagues remain safe, both for your own sakes and for the rest of us.

Absolutely. We in lockdown don't see the agony in the hospitals and the homes of those in there.

The problem IMO is not lack of understanding – some of the rule-breakers probably have PhDs and better. In fact we've seen it in the Scottish MO.

It's ATTITUDE. Personal exceptionalism. "I can't see the harm, therefore there is none".

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Steviegtr on 06/04/2020 00:03:23:

Does anyone know if you buy a frozen item & the packaging is contaminated. When you bring it home & put it in the freezer, does that freeze the virus. Just for it to come back at room temperature. ?????

Steve.

That's what a spray of detox as it was called is for Steve, cardboard or plastic, psst, sorted.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 06/04/2020 00:17:03:

The people who are wilfully and openly flouting what have become laws, have only themselves to blame…

There is though an aspect to it all that the authorities have not considered.

Most of us here are in model-engineering clubs of which many have costly, large-scale physical assets; …

How does anyone entrusted with any of this property, look after it in these restricted times?

It's hard to see logically why someone local can't pop in with one other (a spouse?) or alone but overseen by a safety contact by telephone, now and again to test smoke alarms, ensure no leaks or vermin, pick up letters, collect wind-blown litter, air the building for a couple of hours.

Yet officially this appears to be an illegal ' non-essential ' act, …

The purpose of the lock-down is to minimise contact between people. Those who isolate can't catch it or pass it on to someone else. Therefore the less movement the better.

I see three categories of thinking causing people to break the lock-down:

1. Gormless, contrarian, or ignorant behaviours, like the baseball example. Stupid boy bravado.
2. The 'Doesn't apply to me' mistake. Prime Minister hospitalised this morning because – somehow – government failed to apply their own social distancing rules in parliament. Possibly Catherine Calderwood fell into the same trap, somehow believing it was OK for her to ignore essential travel rules. Why did a responsible, intelligent, medical professional behave like a silly girl?
3. Rationalising that a personal interest, like looking after a club or a birthday party, is somehow important enough to be an exception. Though sympathetic to Nigel's concerns I'd rather burn down a dozen clubs rather than risk spreading a fatal virus.

It's very difficult problem to manage. The government are trying to balance the painful measures needed to control a major health crisis against cost and the need to maintain normality. People are dying of the disease while others lose their livelihoods. Hospital, care home and other workers are courageously putting themselves on the line day after day after day. I'm not aware that any club has suffered due to reduced care-taking; surely in comparison to everything else, looking after a club isn't a priority?

Dave

[Clive SteerParticipant @clivesteer55943]

I've seen references to Cover-19 being described as a Schrodinger virus.

One state is that one has the virus but possibly not showing any symptoms and therefore could unwittingly infect others.

The other state is that one does not have the virus and therefore have no immunity to the virus and susceptible to infection.

So until tested we both have and don't have the virus.

Clive

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Re maintenance. It comes back to common sense again. Agricultural workers and utilities maintenance goes on, mostly solitary so no risk unless tools are shared, a gardener friend continues because it is solitary and he doesn't even talk to the property owner directly anyway. We do need people to continue working to pay taxes rather than burden the support system where safe to do so.
So a club facility could be reasonably maintained by a single person but I don't know if picking up litter and airing it are stretching the freedom. It's not like a railtrack needs short grass or flowers. Our Men's Shed has utilities turned off except for alarm and camera with a local doing his daily dog walk going by it and the cricket club has put sheep onto the outfield to avoid having to cut the grass. Partly doing nothing at these locations is helping to show the spirit of the requirement.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

While walking the dog and getting my exercise yesterday I noticed what appeared to be a young man in he childrens play area. wandering over (no closer than about 15ft) I discovered a man, toddler and obviously pregnant woman on the paly equipment. I pointed out the area as closed and the signs. The Man was totally dismissive, "I'll be alright" clearly no understanding of transmission or care about anyone else. They commented on my being out and I said walking, the dog, exercising, keeping my distance and not touching anything.

I think essential checks on club facilities, if alone and subsituted or combined with that days exercise, is reasonable. Needs to be only ONE member doing it though. If every member checked or there was a rota that is a classic cross contaminaion case.

Robert G8RPI.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Window cleaner just rocked up! Wife sent him packing – hardly essential and it's raining at the mo' too.
However one can understand a small self-employed bloke getting into deep do-do's in these times.

pgk

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Steviegtr on 06/04/2020 00:03:23:

Does anyone know if you buy a frozen item & the packaging is contaminated. When you bring it home & put it in the freezer, does that freeze the virus. Just for it to come back at room temperature. ?????

Steve.

For the last 30 years I have worked in a biological research lab as an electronics designer in support of the science. In consequence I have become familiar with much of the science and many of the safety proceedures around the Lab, that coupled with a personal interest in what we do has given me a reasonable understanding of the issues.

So speaking as an educated amateur rather than a professional biosafety officer, I would reply that:-

The virus capsid (coat) is a number of proteins that together form a closed structure enclosing the genetic material. Protein structures become less stable at increasing temperatures and eventually denature when heated. This is what happens when you fry an egg. When albumen turns white it is denaturing and loosing it's shape. Proteins rely on their shape to be biologically active and loss of tertiary structure prevents them from doing so. Simply put with heat they fall apart to become a disordered string of amino acids. Viruses are routinely frozen in the Lab in order to preserve them for future study. When in a liquid pH is a factor and extremes of pH again the protein structure is lost and with it biological activity. That's why for example bleach works.

With regard to freezing I have read of some concern in the literature regarding melting glaciers/icecaps etc and the possible re-release of ancient virus particals so it is certainly considered a viable scenario.

Unfortunately we all have to eat but I would hold that the trip to the supermarket is the major hazard rather than the items you bring home.

So lastly I would say that although some decontamination can be carried out your best proceedure is to wash your hand very regularly when handling food items, clean surfaces regularly and be aware that cooking will deal with the rest.

I hope this helps. As I say I do not set myself up as an authority but I am perhaps more clued up that the average chap in the street.

Best regards Martin

 

 

Edited By Martin Kyte on 06/04/2020 12:20:20

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

A useful summary, Martin …Thanks

MichaelG.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Feezing stuff for storage is quite an involved procedure. I have no knowledge of current methods but certainly back in the day freezing sperm involved mixing it with egg proteins and being careful about the speed and final temperatures reached and importantly the stability of that final temperature.

A quick google on freezing viruses for storage (which may/may not apply to this specific virus) gave these two quotes:

<<Virus Freezing

However, RNA and most enveloped viruses are extremely heat labile and need to be snap-frozen (frozen rapidly) and stored at -80°C for long-term storage. Please note that most viruses will suffer damage if storage temperatures exceed greater than -60°C. 1.>>

and

<<Viruses frozen in water are likely to be inactivated by the water's relatively low pH. … He adds that viruses are more likely to survive in a frozen state if they freeze and thaw only once, as the freeze-thaw process kills at least 90% of virus each time.>>

Obviously time in the freezer has a big effect as would condensation on the packet before the freeze 'took' So the risk is probably lower than first thoughts would suggest. It;s also worth remembering SOD's comments re postman handling packages… the difference between someone sneezing slime on the enevelope and the relative smaller amount of particles likely to be deposited by the item being put in the letterbox.

Supermarket risk is going to be greatest from all the asymptomatic folk breathing your way and accumulated virus particles from multiple handling of objects – notable the trolley handles (if supermarket isn't cleaning them) check-out belts and card machines.

pgk

[Anonymous]

Posted by Mick B1 on 06/04/2020 09:57:24:

…………..some of the rule-breakers probably have PhDs……….

At least I'm not ignorant.

Andrew

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