New Warco D330 – Some Advice Please

[Mark SlatterParticipant @markslatter13251]

Hello everyone,

I purchased a new Warco D330 lathe a couple of weeks ago. Overall it seems like a decent machine, however I made the decision to strip it completely and give it a deep clean after seeing the amount of grinding dust/swarf that was  sloshing around in the headstock. Every surface felt very gritty, with obvious signs of grinding dust…which can’t have been from any deburring being done (there is even a sign on the machine to wear gloves to avoid being cut 🙂

Still it’s from China so I can’t expect too much, and you get a lot of features for your money I think.

The components were looking fairly decent as I went through the process of stripping the lathe, however the vee section of the saddle is horrendously rough. It almost appears as though whatever machinery they used to rough the vee section in, went too far leaving too little material for final finishing, and it was left at that. Its hard to capture on camera but I estimate it would take at least 0.5-0.75mm of a surfacing cut to bring a smooth surface to the vee’s (i.e the difference in height between the valleys and peaks of the machining swirls). I have not yet had an opportunity to blue the bed up to see what the actual bearing is like however.

The flat section of the saddle seems to be fairly flat and parrallel to the top however, around 0.03mm deviation along the length of the flat section.

 

My question though is what to do about this? I’d like to improve things while the machine is apart to maximise it’s useful life and prevent rapid and uneven wear to the saddle as well as the bedway.

The options as I see it are scraping it in, although removing this amount of material may cause issues with how the apron interacts with the feed gears, and the half nut etc.

Perhaps I could fit a strip of Turcite to the saddle and scrape that in?

The other option I considered was using a slideway epoxy to essentially fill in the gulleys of the rough machined area.

I’d appreciate any thoughts or input on this…what would you do?

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I would send it back to Warco as “not fit for purpose”.

 

Andrew.

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

That picture is disgusting for how it left the manufacturer. And it shows the value of pulling even a new machine apart for a thorough inspection, cleaning and de-burring. With some but maybe not all lathes, the saddle ways are recessed a bit in the center area, and the actual saddle ways are only bearing on a few inches of each end for the front and rear ways. Given that the cross slide is above that, I’m not sure I’d agree with that method. And more bearing surface is going to wear slower.

If your 100% sure you have the skills to properly scrape it in and still maintain all the proper alignments. Turcite would be the way I’d go, and for the reasons you’ve already mentioned. While your checking the fit against the bed ways with the ink, I’d also want to indicate the cross sides dovetail across it’s width to each other and the bed, along there length, and parallelisum. I’d think there’s a fairly good chance those may be incorrect. If so, your going to need to scrape the carriage bottom surfaces into alignment for that as well. I might understand how it’s done, but I don’t think I’ve got the experience and skills to be sure of my success for a job like this. Have you got a high precision machinist level to get the bed leveled for these checks?

While it’s not the fault of Warco, I’d be sending pictures and any misalignment numbers I found to them as well. They can’t demand the manufacturer’s do better unless they know about issues like this. You also have a warranty and fit for purpose laws.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I did not bother stripping and cleaning my Warco so have no idea if the sliding surfaces are better or worse but it is still performing well after 17years of use so it suits my purposes.

Same with the three Sieg Mills never taken apart and all doing their job and the X3 is older than the lathe

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Send it back.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I’m inclined to say that the pattern that can be seen on the Vee surfaces is fairly typical of the mechanical scrapers they tend to use rather than any lingering marks from initial roughing out machining.

Sending it back is an option but a replacement is likely to be similar so what option are you left with. refund and then what to buy maybe a new Harrison/Colchester if you can still get a manual one but don’t expect one of them for anywhere near the same price.

Also the surface you have it stood on on your granite plate is a non contact surface so possibly not the best one to be taking measurements from.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Jason wason the ball with his “non contact surfaces”, you should sit it on a pair of parallels just outboard of the vees.

Now it’s in bits, I would just get on with some small improvements.

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

Those look like machine marks with a blunt cutter, looks like it’s tearing the surface.

A quick Google tells me that cost £5,595

The local machine dealer I recently bought a boxford 190vmc from had 3 Harrison M300 lathes for £1500 each, I’d have bought one of them and kept 4 grand.

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

Put it back together and use it..

I haven’t bothered to strip any of my (Warco) machines either.

I couldn’t really figure out where a few odd bits of casting debris were going to go, when they are lying in the bottom corners of a deep reservoir with the gears only splashing their feet around in the very top..

Might be worth checking that any sight-glass windows and apron shafts have proper flexible O rings and not rings of ?plastic pipe? 😁 and have fun using it..

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Those leaky seals are to let the dirty oil out😋

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Mark,

Are you sure that it’s “new”.  On closer inspection of the pictures, particularly the painted parts, there is some suspicious evidence of corrosion and chipped paint.  If it was supplied as new, it may have been a machine rejected by another customer.  I’d go back to Warco and see what they have to say.  If it’s “new-to-you”, then like others have said, clean it up, lube it up and use it.  See how you get on.  Either way, it looks like an expensive purchase to me.

John

 

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

I recently took the saddle off* my (much smaller) Warco lathe and found a similar finish. Since I’ve had it for a couple of years now, and it works perfectly satisfactorily, I didn’t worry about it.

Put it back together and if it works properly that’s all you need to do.

*To make a minor modification – not because there was any problem with it.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I’d start by establishing whether or not this condition matters!  A poorly finished bearing surface is a problem, whilst roughed out metal that doesn’t touch anything isn’t.

The D330 looks like my WM280 except it’s bigger, more rigid, and has extra features, notably geared speed control.   In which case the saddle may be fine, but I don’t know without seeing it.  In principle, not good for the whole saddle to bear on the bed because that increases friction, is hard to lubricate, and it doesn’t improve accuracy or rigidity.   I advise Mark to put the saddle back and check what it actually runs on: if the touching surfaces are rough maybe speak to Warco!

The conversation will be a severe test of Warco’s willingness to support the customer because Mark has broken the warranty conditions, my bold:

59. If you receive an item which you believe is faulty, get in touch as soon as possible and we will investigate the issue with you.

63. The warranty does not cover consequential losses, including but not limited to loss of business and does not apply if: 

          d. Repairs or product modifications have been carried out by unauthorised service organisations or persons.

When buying new, I advise customers to play the game.  Read the Terms and Conditions.  Warco allow customers to cancel within 14 days of delivery without reason, though the customer pays carriage back.  If an unacceptable product arrives, contact them.  By all means save bother by fixing minor faults, but don’t rush to take responsibility for major issues.   Remember that lemons occasionally reach the customer, in which case the seller should sort the mess out.

We live in a complicated world.  Hobby lathes are made down to a price, causing three reactions:

• ‘Send it back’ : apparently some believe inexpensive tools should be finished to the same standard as expensive ones.   Yeah, right!
• ‘Strip and fix’ :  OK if the tool’s performance is improved, otherwise a waste of time.
• ‘Tolerate unless it causes a problem’ :  Rather than fret about a tool’s perceived shortcomings, accept it’s results that matter, and that quite ropey lathes do good work…

My experience of ‘tolerate unless’ worked out well.  My Chinese lathe is 11 years old, and only required a couple of minor tweaks. (Though as of last month the VFD cooling fan now starts with a squeal!)  My mill is 10, and untouched.   Neither is silky smooth or well-suited to continuous heavy work, but both do what I need, albeit on the slow side.

Does Mark have a technical or a procurement problem?  I suggest it was a procurement problem until Mark decided to strip and fix.   Is it reasonable to expect Warco to accept a return that’s been dismantled by a customer?  I think not, and so I believe does commercial law.  In this situation unhappy customers are expected to have stuff inspected by an independent expert and the courts don’t value self-assessments, or internet advice!  Now no-one can prove that this late wasn’t “fit for purpose” as delivered.   That being so, Mark is where he is, and our advice should focus on the technical problem – if it exists!

Any newcomers reading this, I always suggest testing new equipment by using it for a while.  Measuring the machine or stripping it down are first-class confusers, likely to require more skill than a beginner has.  In contrast, cutting provides obvious clues without needing special skills.  Therefore I suggest beginners only measure and strip when necessary, after cutting failed to pinpoint the exact cause.  No need for experts to follow this advice, but make sure you really are an expert!   Machine tools have some gotchas…

Dave

 

 

 

[Mark SlatterParticipant @markslatter13251]

Thank you for all the replies and advice, I do appreciate it all!

I think my justification for stripping the machine was warranted as I seem to have uncovered an issue in an area that the average buyer might not have considered to look at. Put another way time/money was potentially saved by the manufacturer in an area they thought no one would look! Incidentally getting the machine apart to this level was not very difficult and required no special tools apart from a slide hammer to remove some tapered pins, and nothing has been modified in the process, it can be put together in the same condition it left in.

This machine was expensive, it was at the very top end of my budget but I thought I’d make the purchase in the hope it was good value. I think apart from this saddle issue it is good value, you get a lot of features for your money.

I did have a chance to blue the saddle to the bed this morning, it’s not inspiring great confidence as the bearing is very sparse:

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I would suggest the OP puts his lathe back together and see if it is ‘fit for purpose’ i.e. turns parallel & faces concave, if it performs as designed just use it, if not contact Warco and see what they are willing to do after your strip down.

My 290V lathe has just the same horrendous machining but it performs well so I just enjoy the machine and it’s capabilities.

Tony

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

having mentioned a new Colchester, some may remember the Bantum that JS tweaked for Debs, these are the sliding surfaces on that, look to be straight off the machine. This was a New Old Stock never used machine so he could not have sent it back as NFFP

[KEITH BEAUMONTParticipant @keithbeaumont45476]

Its the Chinese method of oil retention!!!

[LathejackParticipant @lathejack]

Hi Mark.

I bought a new Warco GH1330 in 2004, after just several hours of use I noticed a scuffing pattern appearing on the bed guideways.

I removed the saddle to find exactly the same rough finish to the bearing surfaces on the underside of the saddle as on your new lathe.

Checking revealed just a few pinpoints of contact with the bed, I had to do something about it as it was damaging the bed surface, the early scuffing would eventually become premature wear.

So I cut long strips of Aluminium Oxide paper and used a mild glue to secure the strips to the vee and flat saddle guides of the bed at the tailstock end. The strips were around twice as long as the saddle in total.

The saddle was sat on the abrasive paper with oil and slid back and forth, without riding off the end of the paper. The bed surface remains untouched.

The result was a vastly improved surface finish, smooth but with a few shallow pockets left for oil retention. The saddle felt much better when sat on the bed, with a smoother sliding action with a little drag from the cushion of oil.

Accuracy when facing was just as good as it was before I touched anything.

Your new lathe isn’t really faulty, and overall they are good lathes. This rough surface with poor contact is typical of the relatively low cost Chinese lathes, it’s simply the way they are produced, and if you had it replaced you would just find the same sort of thing on the replacement.

[Mark SlatterParticipant @markslatter13251]

Hi lathejack, thank you for the reply. The wear to the bed you suggested is what worries me slightly too, and is exactly what I’m hoping to avoid by improving the fit as you did. Can I ask how much material you think you removed with your fix? Did you notice any problems with how the apron lined up with the feed shafts and leadscrew etc as I assume it was sitting slightly lower after the modification?

I’ve decided to go the bedway epoxy route on my saddle, and use the bedway as a template while its still in good condition.

[LathejackParticipant @lathejack]

Hi Mark.

i did not check or make a note of how much material was removed from the saddle. i didn’t over do it. I removed just enough to remove the peaks and high spots, and leave a smoother and broader contact surface, but still leaving some pockets, along the whole length of the saddle.

There was no difference when refitting the lead screw or power feed shaft, and no deflection of the lead screw when the clasp nuts were engaged.

The lathe bed has not suffered any more scuffing or scoring in the twenty years since i did the work. I chose to do it this way, rather than trying to scrape the rough surface, to try and ensure the saddle sat on the lathe bed vee way in the same position so that facing cuts did not end up becoming convex or too concave, and it worked.

[Mark SlatterParticipant @markslatter13251]

Hi Lathejack, I’m pleased to hear your fix was such a good success. Hats off to you for sorting it out. I may give your method a try, as I’ll have to remove some material to create space for the bedway epoxy anyway so this seems like a good first step to try.

Cheers!

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