Moving Machines

[David CambridgeParticipant @davidcambridge45658]

Hello All

My name is David and I’m completely new to this hobby. I’ve spent the last month or so trying to decide the machines that will suit my requirements and budget and have spent a lot of time looking at various posts on this forum and visiting various websites.

I’d like to reach the stage that I can (eventually!) make small beam engines, and small four stroke engines and am coming to the conclusion that something along the lines of the Warco VM14 and VM180 will suit my needs. (Having said that, the choice is not clear cut!) I do however have one question that I am struggling to find an answer to. Both of these machine weigh in at about 60 Kg to 70 Kg, however if I decide to go the next level up , for example the Axminster Engineer Series XN2, this weighs about 130 KG. 60 Kg I can just about move with the help of one other, but how do people move and place a machine weighing 130 Kg?

Thanks in advance,

David

[David CambridgeParticipant @davidcambridge45658]

How to move heavy machines

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

I use a collapsible 1 tonne engine crane for my shaper (335kgs) and lathe (about the same). My Chester Champion (135kgs) can be split in two (table and column/mill head) and moved with a sack barrow.

Having just got a new workshop once it is insulated and powered these will have to be moved from the garage over soft ground (grass) to it

The shaper and lathe can be split into two (base and the rest) and lifted onto a trolley truck (e.g. **LINK**) then moved on gravel boards (like train tracks)

That's the plan anyway!

regards

John

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

It's amazing what can be accomplished with rollers (scaffold pole, heavy walled pipe) and a lever of some sort – but take things very slow and carefully.

Aldi had machine skates for sale not so long ago – probably fine on a smooth firm floor.

The problem is often as much stability (tipping over) as it is weight.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Your machines will come on a pallet, maybe with surrounding ply protection. Hopefully the delivery will be with a tailgate lift. Don't expect the delivery man to move it any further than the floor he drops it on! Now you need lengths of timber and some rollors and some help.

I did it this way, had two lengths of 2 x 2 and unpacked the machine and slid it off the pallet onto the 2 x 2, this then allowed me to move it in the direction I wanted. Clear all obstacles in the way as it will be difficult to clear later. If need be, dismantle parts to reduce handling weight. On reaching the bench I started to build a tower of wood by tilting one way and then the other and adding the wood to gain bench height. Be careful and screw each piece of wood to the one below. At bench height I placed two bits of wood to slide machine onto bench. My Sieg X3 weighed 190Kg and it took me nearly all day to do it. I could not use an engine crane as I had restricted space. You definitely need another person for safety reasons. Consider carefully where you want to put it as you need space around it for table movement or for a lathe room to put bar through the headstock.Ideally, 2 other helpers and no dogs around to get in the way, plenty of wood packing and screws etc. Allow plenty of time and refreshment. Finally, plan, and plan again to get it right.

Clive

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

I moved a heavy generator on rollers, single-handed, only a few months ago, and that was over grass. You can also make things slightly more portable by removing the motor, which is usually a simple process. If you plan to follow Clive's advice, don't forget to reward with pints of ale when the job is done!

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

There is a post on here just now about using rollers. It all depends on the ground you have to move over. Clives advice above is good ,esp. getting the machine dropped onto batons, makes things much easier later. If the ground is not dead smooth consider laying a temporary path. Steel sheets from a scrapyard can be used and then returned. As everybody will say, the biggest problem is not the weight but the center of gravity. You can move several tons on your own with a turfer or winch ,so long as it can roll or slide.

[Phil H 1Participant @philh1]

David,

DONT do what I did with my old milling machine. I split it in half (table and separate column assembly). I lifted the column assembly and put it on the bench then read the manual to discover that I had shifted well over 100kg in one go. That was really stupid.

I was a bit more careful with the Myford Super 7 and I moved that single handed but using a technique very similar to Clive's description.

I now have a much heavier milling machine on the floor off its stand (about 300kg) and I will be using an engine crane and will get some help. It is not worth taking the risks that I took with the other two machines.

Phil H

[GarryCParticipant @garryc]

Hi David

My Lathe was about 125kg I think and I used a 1 Ton Engine Crane but I would say its much easier, especially if like me you are going to do it on your own, to use a load leveller. I used this one **LINK** It's would have been better if it had been longer I think but much better than trying it without..

Its a shame that they don't seem to fit small lathes with lifting rings I think..

You need a decent height clearance above for the crane and a bench / table that doesn't foul the legs on the crane..

Cheers

Allan

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

I used an engine hoist 2T on wheels it even had a telescopic boom, Fleabay £80

My Warco weighed over 150 kg, I was able to pull it into place no problem, BUT you do need head room for the boom and to get the angle on the lifting slings Min 120 Degree

cheers

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Remember an engine crane is rated at the shortest arm setting – usual advertising hype – so much less at full extension which is probably where you want to set it. The Axminster 2 ton is nice but you then have to store it. Helps if you can borrow one.

Note that lever hoists (aka come-along for americans) are not for use on vertical lifts. This is because they have no safe way of letting down. The Haltrack pulley blocks are better in this situation for small loads. I used one to lift a Warco Minor but the problem was the pull required had me sliding across the floor as I didn't want to be in the position for a downward pull.

Again using the Haltrack I have rigged 2 step ladders with a couple of 4×2 between to make a frame to lift from for 200lb loads. A ladder is rated for a fat man but not too fat so think a bit.

Outside if you need to lift something onto rollers or trollies you can lean 2 ladders against a wall and rig a support beam between them. If the 'wall' is your open garage doorway you get space all round.

The safe lifting load for a man is very small. A metal thing about a cubic foot and looking like it is mostly air eg hand shaper is on or above the limit. A 6in machine vice is above. I think it used to be about 50 lbs but then only under suitable conditions.

[WALLACEParticipant @wallace]

Wear steel toe capped boots for a start !!!!!

Scaffold poles as rollers are great – the load will also slide quite readily axially along the rollers as well.

W

[TSHParticipant @tsh73987]

Hi David,

I recently had to move a Chester Super Lux mill (around 300 kg) from the pallet in the garage at the front of the house where it had been delivered to the workshop at the rear of the house. The route was straightforward—no soft ground and just one small ramp up a step. The main problem was the very tight space it was going to end up in, and a couple of narrow gaps through doors. The first step was to build a beefed up version of the crane described in MEW 205; this I did while waiting for delivery of the mill. Having removed the more fragile bits of the mill (like the DRO display) I used the crane to lift the mill clear of the pallet so I could remove the pallet and put the mill onto the floor. I fitted castors to the pallet and lifted the mill back onto it. We could then wheel the mill through to the workshop. I did it this way as I really didn't want to move the mill any distance hanging from the crane. Then I used the crane again to lift the mill onto its pre-positioned stand in the workshop. This procedure was taken very slowly and carefully and took a couple of days, on and off. I was surprised how much planning it took, but it worked OK in the end.

Good luck!

Trevor

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Allan, it should be possible to make a couple of plates and drill through them and fit an eye bolt and then mount it in the middle balance point of the lathe bed. I have before at work used a pallet truck to move a Lathe, carefully finding the balance point and using big blocks of wood under a substantial part of the lathe it was easily done. The reason for moving it was to use it as a solid mount for adjusting a bore scope Laser which needed rotating as it had a coning error ( Laser tube mounted inside another metal tube with adjusting screws to center and collimate the laser to the outer tube) It had to be done at a target distance of 100M. I could never understand how these test equipments always came in out of adjustment. Even head up display targets were always out and we did them twice a year. I even used locking paint on the screws but it was always chipped away the next time it came in. Always adjusted to less than 1/2 a sec. with auto collimation.

Clive

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

My Warco major was lifted into place by the delivery guy and his 2 ton engine crane, I've since acquired other machines my Hurco for instance weighs in at 1730kg and I occasionally have to get in behind it, which was a pain, I now jack it up with the levelling screws drop it onto 1" rollers and walk it along using a 1/2" rod that locates in a series of holes drilled into the concrete floor, the rod first passes through a lifting eye bolted to the front of the machines foot, as others have stated these machines tend to be very top heavy so be careful.

I'm thinking of moving house the Hurco will be a nightmare to relocate, last time I moved it with a Hyab which was scary, and a pallet truck which needed major surgery afterwoods but is still usable but bent…………

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Lots of good ideas but, for the sake of completeness, don't overlook the possibility of paying someone else to do the job. I needed to get my WM16 lookalike through the house, down the basement steps (with right angle bend) and through the basement to my shop. For health reasons I couldn't get physically involved.

I found a couple of guys who did all that (plus picking up the mill & stand from the dealer's) and waited for me to set up the stand and lifted the mill up. All for a little over $200.

Edited By OMG on 27/03/2014 00:28:03

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

I have a 2 meter floor crane (like an engine lift on steroids) and I recently (Tuesday) sold my RF25 (200+kg) and didn't use it, rolling poles all the way, it's quicker and safer if you ask me, lifting it is hard….. so don't lift it

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I have to move machines as part of my living and that includes organising low loader transport and mobile cranes for the bigger stuff and frankly some of the replies i have read on here make me shudder.

 

I'm glad you are not working for me and so is my insurance company.

 

Everyone quotes by rote about tubes and rolling poles [ is that a drunken polish labourer ? ] but get something top heavy and loose a roller at a corner and it's gone. It's all about the centre of gravity.

 

I got flack the other day for saying lay a Harrison mill down on its back on a pallet but believe me it's far safer than it being stood upright.

 

I'll sort some pics out of the bigger jobs like full sized 10' x 6' laser cutting machines being installed from new, nearly half a million quids worth.

This is the only one I can lay my hands on on this hard drive.

 

Nearly 3 tonnes of CNC machine being delivered. Hard to spot in the picture but the hight was needed to clear a telecom cable.

 

And incidentally if I get the chance to lift a machine I will, even if it's by fork truck i will still do an overhead lift where possible for one simple reason, if it's hanging it can't tip over.

Edited By John Stevenson on 27/03/2014 14:44:04

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

A slow way of moving, or lifting machines is to "jack and pack". This is used a lot, or used to be, in mining.

If lifting in this way, DO make sure that the thing is not going to tip over, especially onto you (ANY doubts, make sure that you have an easy escape route. You can buy a new machine, but new limbs are harder to source)

My Mill/Drill was bolted to its bench(on an angle iron bearer/load spreader frame) inside the workshop door, and the whole thing prised up to fit some 1/2" round bars under neath. The bench and machine were then pushed to the far end of the shop (bear in mind mine is only about 10 feet long) using a car scissor jack and pieces of wooden packing, braced against a piece of 4" x 2" across the door way. It took a bit of time, but it placed the bench and machine, which I could not have pushed, where I wanted it. And then the rollers were removed.

The lathe had been lifted onto its bench using a folding 1 Ton crane. (The crane had to be folded to get it through the shop doorway)

The lathe had a convenient cast hole under the headstock, so the sling was placed round a piece of 1" bar through this, and under the Tailstock end, taking care not to crush the power shaft or leadscrew , and back round the inner end of the steel bar. This allowed the lathe to be moved into position as the crane legs went under the bench.

If moving a machine on a crane, only lift the machine just clear of the floor, to keep the centre of gravity as low as possible. Even then be careful, the load can swing quite badly on a sling, so it is possible to tip over the crane and the load!

Take time and be careful. Better to spend three hours moving the machine than three weeks in hospital, after trying to save a few minutes.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi All

Using 50mm water pipe is risky if you are moving tall metalworking machinery. My lathe weighs about 3.5 tons as dose my mill. They both have a high centre of gravity. raising it high on heavy pipe creates a real possibility of it tipping over if it gets away.

For machines with a substantial cast iron rectangular base (not sheet metal) my mill. or bases my lathe

The kit I use is:

A couple of big one meter pinch bars and a 2 metre crow bar.

A set of 18mm black steel bars in a couple of lengths the main thing being that they stick out about 200mm each side of the machine base. You need about 6 to rotate as you inch the machine along the floor, as they come out one end you move them to the front pace yourself and keep them spaced evenly a few will get out of line if the floor is not perfectly flat, just make sure there is a bar near the edges at all times. You may have to lift the lathe with the crow bar occasionally to space them correctly. To turn as you move you have to angle the bars as you insert them and work the machine around with the crow bar.

To protect the floor from crushing damage caused by the pressure of the bars I also have a few pieces of about 16 gauge sheet metal, you have to rotate them with the bars. the bars roll on the sheet metal not the floor.

Also some pieces of thin plywood to stop the crow bar tongue from damaging the floor and provide a grip on the floor for moving the machine along or around. and some 5mm plywood packers to raise the machines in steps to 20mm to place the protective steel strips on the floor and get the bars started under the bases.

Once the bars are inserted and the machine is riding on the protective steel sheets the pressure required to move the machines is not excessive, one person, me… can do it. Not easy but doable. This method has been used many times.

If you can get a helper the job is a lot easier, but that person should be experienced and know the safety issues involved. Take your time and plan every step carefully, you have all day. Beware of being trapped against a solid object by the moving machine

All of the above assumes a level or almost level concrete floor in good order. If there is a slope or if the floor is timber and there is a risk of the machine breaking through the floor boards. That could be catastrophic for your safety if the machine tipped over in the process.

Call a professional machine mover unless you are confident you can manage the job.

Regards
John

PS:

I also have an Asian  2 ton engine crane, Beware using it on a sloping floor, they have quite low lateral stability, also watch out for the load swinging with the beam fully extended. The design is quite unstable if the load swings. If a wheel gets caught in a hole in the floor while you are moving it the load will swing out. Move very slowly. 

Edited By John McNamara on 28/03/2014 13:58:50

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by John Stevenson on 27/03/2014 14:42:16:

I have to move machines as part of my living and that includes organising low loader transport and mobile cranes for the bigger stuff and frankly some of the replies i have read on here make me shudder.

A fairly recent move of "old mill out, new mill in" at a colleagues' house was watched by two amateurs (me + colleague) and attempted by a long time machine distributor + his helper.

Their "dolly" had broken straps + one flat tire. We got the flat tire pumped up for them, but as they had to move a heavy mill, they were under equipped by a long shot, plus were wearing the proverbial running shoes.

We told them to stop. Did not outright tell them that they were going to kill themselves, but, as they were glad we had told them to stop, I think they were worried.

Eventually, others got the mill apart, down into the basement, with ease, and nary a scrape.

Lesson to all: not every machine distributor should be trusted to actually move machines!

Another John.

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

I have moved some very, very heavy gear in my time and I would like to repeat John Stevenson's comment: "if it's hanging it can't tip over". I have watched Moron's with very little understanding of the consequences of a thousand ton bit of kit getting away and bursting (literally) onto the scene with a life of it's own. All I can say is, if you are unsure, don't!

There are plenty of experienced people out there and as someone has pointed out, expertise can be had for modest sums and good Builders Tea (as has also been pointed out, there are plenty of morons too so be circumspect in your choices).

graham.

[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

i moved my 1000 Kg Deckel clone mill by myself. 6' pry bar, 42" crowbar, loads (16?) bits of 18mm packing pieces. Lift corner of mill, insert packer, repeat for all for corners. Using one packer under crowbar, repeat to get second packer under each corner. Repeat until high enough to get short pieces of scaffold pole under mill, you will need at least three.

Basically it was to do it very slowly and testing each lift before committing to it. The exciting part was the hired flat bed lorry with a Hiab to lift the mill over a 9' high brick garden wall!. The mill was then committed to a self store container and the Hiab could just get its boom into the container with the mill hanging off it. VERY tight, some shorter lifting strops would have been very useful.

To remove the mill from the container, we used a lorry with a 1 ton tail lift. It was extremely difficult to get the tail lift between the open container doors as they had welded on restraints. I think we had to crowbar the slack out of them to get the tail lift close enough . Once home we dropped the tail lift and crow barred it back on to the rollers, where it went up the concrete garden path and jacked up into the new shed (6"+).

So it cost ~£200 (Hiab) + £200 (lorry) + £100 (crow bars, beer etc.), seems a lot for a £1500 mill

Frank

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

There is one thing you cannot use rollers on – horses. One of the most scary lifts I've been involved with. The vet had it drugged up to the eyeballs and it still managed to kick seven shades out of everything in range.I'll dig out the photo's if I get chance. At least if a machine does go over thats an end to it. They don't keep waking up and trying to kill you. The Vet got close to being a 999 call, he had a bad limp afterwards.

I have also managed to outrun a flanging machine (think about a Brideport but two foot taller ) when the scaffolding roller got stuck and the whole thing went over.

Anyway, back to earth, how do you get a hobby lathe out of the crate and onto the bench single handedly?

Put the straps around the bed at the balance point and just take the weight to check balance and see if the lathe is going to misbehave, if it is re-adjust the straps and test it again…The engine crane is pointed at the target bench…

Magic happens…as someone said already, never lift higher than you need to. Moving the pallet, you only need the lathe high enough to get the weight off. Keep an idea in mind of where the lathe will be if the crane or straps fail. Stay out of that place.

That's what the job looks like working on your own. I put the straps around the balance point on the bed because I couldn't bear the argument about putting the straps under the spindle.

The C6 from memory is about 135Kg.

Steve

[JAParticipant @ja]

Myfords, the old Beeston firm, delivered to me a reconditioned Super 7 with cabinet type stand on castors. These were fitted in the cabinet hold down bolt holes. The lathe could be wheeled about without any difficulty. Once it was positioned the lathe and cabinet was gently tipped one way and then the other to remove the castors. An easy two man job.

I guess it is all down to planning. A friend once moved a Colchester Chipmaster 25 yards down a concrete garden path, including two right angled bends, and then down seven steps by himself in a day without hiring any fancy lifts etc. Mind you his day time job included planning the movement of much heavier and more valuable equipment. He refused any help on the basis of "too many cooks spoil the broth".

JA

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