Motorcycle General Discussion

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Posted by ronan walsh on 19/02/2018 17:17:55:

Posted by daveb on 19/02/2018 16:54:38:

Posted by ronan walsh on 19/02/2018 16:42:55:

I got talking to an old boy at the local jumble years ago, it was a hilarious conversation. He like most had reached an age when the aches, pains and other health issues had put him off his classic bikes, so reluctantly he sold them off. After a while and missing motorcycling, he was advised to buy a "modern" royal oilfield single with electric start. All the looks and positives of classic motorcycles, with none of the negatives (ho ho ho).

So he went and bought a brand new out of the dealers showroom Bullet with leccy start. Then the calamity started, The miracle electric start packed up, the clutch fell off the end of the gearbox mainshaft, the wheel bearings went, the steering head bearings went, everything chromed started to rust, the big end went, and when it was replaced, the conrod was found to be bent, and all the aluminium castings took to corrode.

Well I'll be blowed! They made it just like a genuine British bike. I've been looking at these for a while, can't quite decide if I want one.

In all fairness, the British bikes were never that bad, they did heat treat components, the chrome plating was good, they did use bearings from good manufacturers. Also most british bikes makers were out of business by the early 1970's, thirty years later the indian makers should be able to do a far better job of them. Apparently heat treatment and tolerances are alien concepts in India.

On my frequent searches for parts, I discovered Hitchcocks (I think the name is) in Birmingham, who supply UK made parts for Indian Royal Enfields.

The theory is that you can replace pretty much everything on the bike with good quality (better than 1950s original) parts and have something under you that won't disintegrate as you ride.

I sat one day with the catalogue and a calculator, to find out how much it would cost……. I was only about ten pages in when I gave up.

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by duncan webster on 19/02/2018 17:18:48:

I had a job as a graduate apprentice with BSA due to start in September 1971. Woke up one morning in August to find I'd been made redundant by post, not a good start to my engineering career!
​However, during the 3 day interview (yes you read it right), we met up with the guys who had designed the triple. they stated that the vertical split arrangement was only ever meant to demonstrate that a 3 cylinder bike would work, and that they wanted to redo it as horizontally split for production. The management wouldn't hear of it as it would have meant spending money on machine tools. Quite why they couldn't have got someone else to do that bit I never did find out. They also had ideas for just sawing the end off to make a 500cc twin, what was left over would make a single, but perhaps vertical split is the way to go for singles. They managed to waste money on making the Triumph and BSA versions subtly different, one had sloping cylinders I seem to remember

The AMC twin with centre bearing were notorious for bottom end problems, was this due to lack of alignment?

I always thought the centre bearing would be a good idea on the twins, but apparently not, the popular theory is that the crank is going to flex, so let it. I would assume that seeing as most car engines, even back then, had bearings supporting the crank in the centre, then it would be do-able in the bike engines, line-boring ?

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

Posted by ronan walsh on 19/02/2018 20:05:13:

Posted by duncan webster on 19/02/2018 17:18:48 :The AMC twin with centre bearing were notorious for bottom end problems, was this due to lack of alignment?

I had one that suffered terminal bottom end problems, the crank case disintegrated due to a broken con-rod. I don't see how the bearing could have got out of alignment, I suspect the problem was caused by a blockage in the oil supply to the big ends.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by duncan webster on 19/02/2018 17:18:48:

I had a job as a graduate apprentice with BSA due to start in September 1971. Woke up one morning in August to find I'd been made redundant by post, not a good start to my engineering career!
​However, during the 3 day interview (yes you read it right), we met up with the guys who had designed the triple. they stated that the vertical split arrangement was only ever meant to demonstrate that a 3 cylinder bike would work, and that they wanted to redo it as horizontally split for production. The management wouldn't hear of it as it would have meant spending money on machine tools. Quite why they couldn't have got someone else to do that bit I never did find out. They also had ideas for just sawing the end off to make a 500cc twin, what was left over would make a single, but perhaps vertical split is the way to go for singles. They managed to waste money on making the Triumph and BSA versions subtly different, one had sloping cylinders I seem to remember

The AMC twin with centre bearing were notorious for bottom end problems, was this due to lack of alignment?

The modular engine concept finally saw the light of day with the initial family of engines from John Bloors Triumph. The 3 cylinder engines were 750cc short stroke and 900cc long, the 4 cylinder engines used the same bore to give 1000cc short stroke and 1200 long stroke.

Mike

[Dave SpicerParticipant @davespicer27262]

Posted by ronan walsh on 19/02/2018 16:42:55:

I got talking to an old boy at the local jumble years ago, it was a hilarious conversation. He like most had reached an age when the aches, pains and other health issues had put him off his classic bikes, so reluctantly he sold them off. After a while and missing motorcycling, he was advised to buy a "modern" royal oilfield single with electric start. All the looks and positives of classic motorcycles, with none of the negatives (ho ho ho).

So he went and bought a brand new out of the dealers showroom Bullet with leccy start. Then the calamity started, The miracle electric start packed up, the clutch fell off the end of the gearbox mainshaft, the wheel bearings went, the steering head bearings went, everything chromed started to rust, the big end went, and when it was replaced, the conrod was found to be bent, and all the aluminium castings took to corrode.

It was like fate was paying a cruel joke on him, the dealers advice was to find a dimly lit stretch of canal and do the honourable thing.

I was looking at both a kawasaki w800 and the new triumph bonneville at the weekend, both well made machines that are reliable.

I've got a newish Indian Bullet which I brought new 6 1/2 years ago. Only problems have been a strange noise from the head which was fixed under warranty but they didn't say or know as to what the cause was. Secondly the starter solenoid jammed which drained the battery completely. Both of the faults happened on very days.

Apart from this, nothing has gone wrong since (besides the cheap battery I brought. A big mistake when you have electiric start.)

My mileage is only 8500 to date but overall I,m happy with the bike.

Dave

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

No, sorry, you are thinking of the pre Turner twins, designed by the great Val Page. The first of what we now know as the classic Triumph twins was Turner's Speed Twin in '36.

Posted by Gordon W on 19/02/2018 09:38:25:

I worked with a chap who had one of the very early Turner twins, pre war. The engine ran "backwards" with geared primary drive. I could have bought it.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

I've enjoyed the recent discussion here about the BSA/Triumph 350 that may have saved BSA if the banks had not pulled the plug. The Edward Turner designed twin, ETED1, always much maligned and the subject of bad press. I would speculate much of the bad press was as much about the man as the bike. Many myths seem to have become facts regarding this bike. One popular story is the unreliability of the crankshaft, frequent failures. Yes the crank broke across one of the pins. This was after something like 25000 miles of being thrashed by some very fast riders. I believe Percy Tait did the performance testing at Mira, it's performance on a par with a Bonneville!

After the crank failure stress analysis experts found the problem, a subtle change here and there sorted it. This crank then when into the later Bandit/Fury design.

Turner's bike did not get the development it needed before politics got in the way. So, what did the later redesign that is recognised as the Bandit/ Fury do for the bike? It had a 5 speed gearbox, Turner's had a 4 speed. Some work was done with the 4 speed to get 5 speeds out of it, that in itself is a fascinating story. The bike gained an electric starter, necessary to compete in the market place. It also gained a lot weight 70 – 80lbs, thus losing it's sparkling performance.

Turners brief was to produce a bike that would be competitive in the American market, the 350cc class was the big seller at the time. The bike had to be low in cost to produce and easy to maintain. This was broadly achieved compared with the later version.

I could ramble on about the bike but it would better coming from the "horses mouth" so I am going to try and persuade one of the BSA guy's who was seconded to Turner's design team to get the story written down.

John

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Thaiguzzi– you are correct, probably. I only repeated what I was told at the time, about 1959. Us lads didn't argue with a jig-borer . Still would like to have it tho.

[JimmieSParticipant @jimmies]

Interesting old photo of bikes on http://www.ikba.co.uk/ Scroll down to In Norfolk I Think – DBDBrian Yesterday, 2:10 pm

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Did they have extra long clutch and brake levers?

Mike

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

How true is this?

[Trevor Crossman 1Participant @trevorcrossman1]

Ha-Ha! Probably true Mike, according to what my wife frequently tells me to do and I saw 70 a few years back. Though she now a septgenarian and has still got her bike gear too, for pillion.

Trevor

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

She was wrong! I'm a biker and i never grew up. Still as daft as ever…

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Reminds me of "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many old, bold pilots".

Neil

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/03/2018 14:52:25:

Reminds me of "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many old, bold pilots".

Neil

Reminded me to mention PBS-America (recently available on Freeview) does a nice line in restoration projects and other Documentaries.

"The Mosquito Reborn" was about rebuilding the aircraft that had flown the most combat missions in WW2. The aircraft, a Mosquito, was flown to Canada in 1944 to raise money for the war effort. It was crewed by two genuine Canadian war heros, both highly experienced. The day Germany surrendered they celebrated by buzzing the control tower. Third time round a wing hit a steel pole on top of the tower and they were both killed. How sad I thought – having survived years of dangerous active service over Europe, plane and crew were written off by an accident.

Or perhaps going out in your prime doing what you enjoy is a good thing. Turns out old age is extremely dangerous and much less fun.

Though not scheduled at the moment I'm sure they'll repeat it.

Dave

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 04/03/2018 15:46:51:

"The Mosquito Reborn" was about rebuilding the aircraft that had flown the most combat missions in WW2. The aircraft, a Mosquito, was flown to Canada in 1944 to raise money for the war effort. It was crewed by two genuine Canadian war heros, both highly experienced. The day Germany surrendered they celebrated by buzzing the control tower. Third time round a wing hit a steel pole on top of the tower and they were both killed. How sad I thought – having survived years of dangerous active service over Europe, plane and crew were written off by an accident.

Dave

I was 15yrs old when me & my bestest mate found ourselves sat down getting drunk on whisky with a genuine WWII tail end Charlie. He told us the truth about what it was like & I still carry to this day that the truth was nothing like what they tell us today.

They lived for that one day that they were still alive . . . because they knew that the average lifespan was 3X missions. This bloke was ground crew who spent most of his service hose pipe'ing out the remains of the rear gunner, until it came time for his turn . . . . !

The thing that strikes me the most is they didn't get really close to each other, it was too emotionally dangerous to have 'mates' in the RAF in WWII.

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

Been one of those weeks when you have nice surprises.

A pal from the past brought me a film from his old cinema camera converted to DVD.

It showed our sprinting and drag racing times at Elvington, Silverstone, Santa Pod and think Fairford also Olivers Mount when Barry Sheene raced there plus memories of our local pub walk etc.

A bit later a trip to the Buckles Inn to the TR Register club meeting to race Scalectric on the Grand Prix course very entertaining seeing grown men just like kids.

Then a call from a couple of motorcycle enthusiasts they were having a look at a 1973 Triumph Trophy at a Batley shop and would I like to go with them.

While at the shop Helen was captivated by a Harley engine featherbed framed bike problem was the carbs caught her leg when sat on it.

Helen did 137mph on the sand at Pendine last year her name is now the sand queen

Next shop visit to was a well known sponsor in circuit racing I asked if I could take pictures of their racing machines and trophies the owner thanked me for asking as some scum bags had stolen some of his machines lately sometimes criminals take pictures to find easy break in places.

Also on 20th March Helen might be riding at Elvington Top Speed meeting and if conditions correct Becci will attempt to better her 264mph record.

With my project ordered a bespoke centrifugal cast iron liner will get two out of it buying it from Westwood Liners is cheaper than buying a piece of cast iron and all the waste involved.

Today a TR member with a 1933 AJS will visit me regarding a BMW boxer special he is building.

Things like this keep you active when 76.

 

Edited By Windy on 10/03/2018 11:23:20

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Always liked the Sportster motor in a Featherbed frame. Fills the space nicely, and, IMHO looks a better fit than any Brit parallel twin. Just looks "right".

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Plus one for westwood liners. Their catalogue lives in my workshop, modifying a standard liner saves loads of work. Very cost effective.

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

Posted by thaiguzzi on 11/03/2018 06:33:58:

Always liked the Sportster motor in a Featherbed frame. Fills the space nicely, and, IMHO looks a better fit than any Brit parallel twin. Just looks "right".

I have a featherbed frame kicking about somewhere, so much to do so little time perhaps I should just get rid and let someone else do something with it………………………..

Here's my new project, 3D model of chassis and jig, the frames almost done, engines done and been run on the dyno, still have yokes, clipons, rearsets, tank, exhaust, etc etc etc to make, the whole thing need to get done in time for the ManxGP……………..

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Better still with a good engine– Vincent twin.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Is that a Harton or Norley?

Mike

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet but to show with very basic machine tools but loads of enthusiasm what is possible in these times  of must have.

In my younger days after having an Adept then 2inch Heighten Cadet lathe went up market to a £20 Pool Special, home made drill and use of gas bottles all in a 6 x 8 shed.

Bike frames were made outside using a plum bob and protractor no jigs.

My scrap yard specials took most of my meager wage always a problem finding money for competition entry fee's, Nitro (used 80% mix at times) mates coming with me helped with transport costs in my old battered van.

The following is my reply to Graham who had his Greenwood 3 wheeler going for records at 1971 Elvington records attempts.

Later on Graham had numerous classic cars for you to drool over Bugatti plus others his Facebook site has such a lot about the past record machines.

I don't realize how ancient I'm getting but still young at heart with speed dreams still to attempt and the same enthusiasm

Hi Graham it was the next bike I built with two blown engines that did 207.9mph average over f/s 1/4 mile that single engine machine had a 750 conversion on for a record meeting and on a run at the s/s Kilo it was probably doing 180mph terminal speed after a speed wobble at around the 160mph but powered through it. Unfortunately the return run the tyre went up in smoke and missed the record by about a 1/10th of a second. With the double gearboxes was the weak point.

 

 

 

 

Edited By Windy on 11/03/2018 12:54:45

Edited By Windy on 11/03/2018 13:02:27

Edited By Windy on 11/03/2018 13:05:14

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Gordon W on 11/03/2018 09:57:19:

Better still with a good engine– Vincent twin.

Not disagreeing with you, the Vincent motor certainly has the "aura", the looks and the "prestige".

However, the 1200cc all alloy Evo motors available since the mid 80's produce 70 bhp and 70 Ibs foot torque pretty much stock (carb/pipe mods) and 90 bhp reliably with a little mild tuning.

They also have a gearbox and clutch that work consistently, parts are cheap and available everywhere, and are extremely easy to maintain (no valve clearances to adjust).

They are also available at probably a 1/10th of the cost.

The "everyman" motor compared to the "exotica" for the few…

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

Finally my friends the bike that does not exist has been shown at the NEC.

Here is a link to the pressure vessel being made plus a test blast.

**LINK**

[Author]

Posts