How do I know if this is Tufnol?

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

I bought some material

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

G'day all.

I have been on the lookout for 'Tufnol' to make some rotor discs for ancient (E.D. Racer) engines. I found this stuff at the local market. it cost me a whole $2. It is in 2 thicknesses, 0.25" & 0.125". The surface is smooth but the texture showing through is a cloth weave. Am I safe to assume that I bought some Tufnol? There are no markings.

Regards from the land of the kangaroo

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

It looks like Tufnol to me.

Tony

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Danny,

Have a look at the links I posted on this previous thread.

Lots of good information there.

MichaelG.

.

P.S.  it's worth noting that Tufnol is actually a brand name, not a specific material.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 06/10/2013 09:41:24

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

Tufnol has a very distinctive smell during machining; if you have a known piece of tufnol you could compare the smell. Colin

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

Also

Tufnol in sheet form has a different weave direction to that of sheet form.

It depends in what you are making as to which has the best strength, flat discs and gears are best made from sheet in my experience.

Phil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I think that should be "to that of rod form " Phil. ?

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Possibly you have picked up some Paxolin, this is made with paper and not fibre cloth. The shiny surface is what Paxolin looks like.

Still smells like Tufnol when cutting.

Clive

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Paxolin / Tufnol ? we are talking trade names here.

There are two types of Phenolic material which is the group it is in.

The paper based material and the cloth based. Both are made by soaking the material in resin and pressing up into sheets except the rod form which is wound.

Again this can be sub divided into the weave of the cloth and the resin used. This is where the trade names come in like Whale, Carp etc for the Tufnol brand.

At one time it was a cheap material, I have even seen it used for internal office cladding in shop floor offices but lately the price has rocketed. Whale brand which is the best mechanical material for gears etc now costs nearly £200 for a 10mm sheet 1200 x 600.

I put this down to a change in production where they are using old £20 notes for the paper brand and Armani for the cloth brand.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Gentlemen,

PLEASE look at the links I posted earlier

MichaelG.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

MichaelG

After a potter around the tufnol site I get your?point.

As a quick precis.
It could be Tufnol brand srbp.
Or Tufnol brand srbf
Both are available in phenolic resin and epoxy resin.
And of course other brands of broadly the same stuff are available.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks Jason,

Possibly the most useful page on that excellent site is this one about machining gears. The advice in there is also relevant to many other small components.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. My last post was made just before the one by JohnS appeared.

… I loved the Armani comment.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Regarding Tufnol for gears, my Opel Kapitan had the large timing gear made of Tufnol. This broke 2 teeth 300 miles into the Northern Frontier District in Kenya and left me stranded. My companion hitch hiked back to Nairobi and brought his Rover 90 back and towed me all the way home.

I entrusted the repair to a local garage who did the job and I paid the money. 1 week later it happened again but this time within the area of the local AA so got a free tow in. This time I did the job myself and the new replacement was an Aluminium gear. Enquiries to the Opel spares dept. said that I was the first person to buy a gear for at least a year. This meant the local garage had used a part from a scrap engine and I went bald headed at the owner who then admitted using a'Used' spare and I got my money back. Ever since then I have mistrusted Tufnol gears.

The fault showed as the Cam shaft keeper yoke plate having come loose and allowing the cam shaft to push forwards due to the helical gear and the cam followers disintegrating and a piece getting into the gear train.

An interesting follow up then occured, I was talking to the German Opel engineer in house and stated that I could remove the camshaft without lifting the engine. There then followed a demonstration with him paying me 500EA Shillings on the Bet he made saying it was not possible.

The answer was to undo the right side engine mount and jack up that side of the engine and then remover the radiator which then allowed access to the camshaft and its removal. Previously they would charge over a 1000EA Shillings for the job which went to a 1hr. job from 3hrs.

Clive

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I have read in several articles that it is advisable to sandwich a steel plate in the middle of a Tufnol gear to avoid tooth damage. I have only ever seen this once on a gear.

Clive

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 06/10/2013 15:37:43:

… This meant the local garage had used a part from a scrap engine and I went bald headed at the owner who then admitted using a'Used' spare and I got my money back. Ever since then I have mistrusted Tufnol gears.

Clive

.

Clive,

I bet that the mechanic, when removing the gear from the donor engine, locked the gears together by jamming a screwdriver between teeth.

Tufnol gears are pretty reliable in "domestic" vehicles; although competition engines do need metal.

MichaelG.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 06/10/2013 13:34:27:

Thanks Jason,

Possibly the most useful page on that excellent site is this one about machining gears. The advice in there is also relevant to many other small components.

Thank you for that link Michael. I turned up a rotor disc and it seems to do the trick. I did notice the smell when machining and it is pretty hard on tool tips. I had to re-hone the edge for the finishing cuts. From what has been said about the pricing I think that my $2 was well spent.

Regards from the land of the kangaroo

* Danny M *

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I made a Tufnol replacement gear for a domestic water pump. I cut the gear using one of my rather crude looking single point fly cutters, I clamped the Tufnol between two steel discs, That was 15 years ago, and its still going. Ian S C

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

I note someone has tidied up my postings here.
Thanks.
Not being able to delete one’s own posts is at times a pain.
There are pros and cons. Again thanks to any and all mods.

[robjon44Participant @robjon44]

Hi all, Tufnol it is then, also used for mounting electrical equipment at one time. I sold a large piece 12 inches square by three quarters of an inch thick to a chap who wanted to make some gears out of it, I even emailed him a picture of it with an array of about 16 change gears on it, when he came to collect it, he said it was a pity there wasnt more, therefore I assume there must be a big market for such things, although in conversation I got the impression that this was a " vanity project" as they are called in these modern times, read fetish.

I myself often made standoff spacers for wall mounted items from it, because I had it & it wasnt going to degrade in this lifetime. Was also lead to believe by a little book from the manufacturer that it was as strong in compression as cast iron, to this end I made several thin & thick thrust washers from it, one of which has been in service for 30 years without giving up the struggle, "put a drop of oil on that boy, it may be the last it ever sees" Wisdom 1960

robjon44

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Danny, another name is Formica, common use of the stuff is a thin sheet with a hard patterned surface, used as a veneer on kitchen benches, tables etc, but that's not its only form, it comes as either a cloth, or paper filled sheet for use in industry, for the likes of switch boards, and anything that Tufnol would be used for. Ian S C

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Formica is a melamine laminate derivative, while 'Tufnol' uses a phenolic resin. Melamine & Phenolic look a bit similar in that they are based around six element rings, but melamine is a cyanimide (N6) ring while phenolics are based around the benzene ring (C6) **LINK** and **LINK** . This makes them rather different in actual properties.

Regards,

Richard.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

Tufnol has never been cheap ,forty years ago I was a procurement engineer dealing with machining subcontractors ,any jigs and fixtures made by the subcontractors from Tufnol were very expensive.

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Last week I picked up a 4ft x 4ft x 1.4" panel from work that was going to be thrown out…

Regards,

Richard

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