Edge Finder

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

Having a good understanding of engineering but a beginner with the lathe and mill I recently purchased a book the Milling a complete course. My first impression was favorable but then looking at the jobs to be made I could not understand the logic of the author,tee nuts then afew simple jobs on to a Boring Head to a Dividing Head. These tools are cheap to purchase, the metal to make these would cost as much as the tools to be made on the course.

I have found you tube and the virtual machine shop to be my guide now on the best way to use a mill and lathe, one of the best tools I purchased this week was a edge finder for £7.00, advised on you tube as the accurate way to find a datum. I had been doing things the hard way on this as the milling course instructed. The edge finder is so easy and accurate that my wife who has no idea on engineering was getting the datum to .01 mm on the DRO.

The Milling a complete course in my opinion is out of date, but useful If you would rather spend hours making a tool that is cheap to buy. My other books The Amateurs Lathe, and Basic Lathework I find excellent, and read all the time as a reference.

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

[VicParticipant @vic]

Some folks have more time than money so making their own stuff makes sense, especially when you consider the poor quality of some stuff out there. As for T nuts I've owned a couple of milling machines and found it impossible to get well fitting nuts for them. I'd advise anyone with a new mill to make their own T nuts to fit the slots correctly. Less chance of damage to the table and you can choose what stud size you want.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Surely the purpose of the book is to teach oneself milling to a good practical level. That is the purpose of the simple exercises such as making clamps and T-nuts and the more complex projects. Yes, of course you can buy such things cheaper but if you take that approach how will you learn.

Russell.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Bob, the simple answer is, you have to start somewhere! As a beginner with no experience of milling, the book's well planned sequences are a worthwhile way of demonstrating many of the things that are done on a mill: straight edges, slots, flat surfaces, accurately bored holes, dovetails, etc. That these exercises are built into things that work makes for a good way of evaluating how well you carried them out.

And no, I didn't build the boring head as buying one was far more efficient for me when I needed it.

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

I think these latest posts are missing my point, the making of Tee Nuts and basic stuff like this I have made with out the need of a book. But then making a Dividing Head , how many out there have made a Dividing Head after a few pages in a book. You can learn to use a mill and lathe making something of interest, surly not tooling, I would consider the making of these specialist tools but surly after a few years of experience. The thought of a novice spending hours and hours on a Dividing Head then when experienced that Dividing Head you made is not accurate enough, as advised in the book finding a edge by using the milling cutter just as it starts cutting the metal. Make it again.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Bob, we learn by making something. Whether that is a tool, widget or a part of the project in hand is unimportant. How many people will learn much with single pieces of metal with a stepped edge, or a slot or hole for example? Making tooling has always been a teaching method because lots of techniques can be learnt on a small project that doesn't affect anything else. Making T-nuts is a good example, without an explanation of climb milling, depth of cut, feed rates etc it is very easy to wreck cutters, work and (especially on small machines) the machine itself. Yes, I did that because I didn't know what I was ignorant of. I doubt there is anyone who would recommend using a tool for the first time on an expensive casting or irreplaceable part.

As for touching off the tool, why isn't it accurate? Watch some more Youtube and you'll see professional machinists do it all the time. Like many tools, edgefinders are useful, but they are only one way of getting the job done.

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

As last post about touching the tool, as stated ,professional machinist use this method, as for climb milling etc as I have said I have a good understanding and know all this from basic lathe and mill training when I was 15, now 61. All I am saying is that the book the Milling Course goes from the basic to the advanced in a few pages. I would love to be proved wrong,has anybody read the book and completed all the jobs.

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Hi Bob,

I have just bought a second hand mill and I also bought HH's book too.

I followed the first few chapters and have made my own tee nuts etc because the stud size of the standard tee-nuts for my 14mm tee-slots is M12 which seems overkill and I'd rather use M10. I also made my own parallels using HH's instructions.

I haven't made the dividing head or the boring head but I might give the latest boring head in MEW a try because many of the techniques from HH's methods could get used I hope and I already have the stock for a round version. I also have a rotary table already so have less need of a dividing head.

I think that where I agree with you is that these two projects look quite daunting at first sight but I'd suggest that in reality, when broken down into their individual operations I don't think they are as big a jump up as you are suggesting.

HTH

Jon

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

As far as I can tell the latest edition of this book is from 2004. I think it is easy to forget how far the internet and such things as Youtube and online shopping have come on since then. There may have been instructional videos available then but finding them would have been hard. Want an edge finder, scour suitable magazine adverts and hope you can find a good one at a good price. There is a possibility that times have overtaken books such as this, it is far easier for someone to make a video, edit it and post it online than it is to write a book and try to put into words what needs to explained. Books start to go out of date the moment they are sent to the publisher, a video can be replaced very quickly and a web site edited daily if required.

Then there are forums like this one. Got a question? Get it answered (in lots of ways sometimes) within minutes. What did people do before the internet? They wrote a letter to a magazine, hoped it would get published and hope that the answer was supplied to the magazine to get published in the following edition. Or they joined a club or bought a book or went to the local library.

Books are just one way of obtaining information now. Any one book may have some small nuggets of gold buried in them, or not as the case may be, but they can now be combined with what can be found out via the internet. The information superhighway is here now and the problem may be too much information and we now have to sift through what we have to find what we want. I think new videos are added to what is available faster than anyone can watch what is already there.

Martin

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Unlike you Bob, I didn't have any lathe or mill training at the age of 15. When I bought a mill (at the age of 59) eleven years ago I had never used a mill. I found HHs book very instructive as a total beginner. I made the T-nuts, angle plate, clamps and parallels. I must admit that I skipped the boring head and dividing head but then went on to make the very useful grinding jig with all it's attachments.

I found that book to be very valuable as a beginner. You said in your initial post that you were a beginner but later that you had lathe and mill training at the age of 15. Perhaps the book isn't aimed at you.

Russell.

[martyn nutlandParticipant @martynnutland79495]

Agree with you totally Bob.

The projects you can either do without a book or else they are too difficult for a beginner.

The book had poor reviews but there is virtually nothing else available on milling. I use You Tube and find that route to know-how the best

The other two books you mention though are superb.

All the best.

Martyn

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Interestingly, if MEW publishes a tool build, sometimes I hear from advertisers that they have had a 'run' on that sort of item – reading about, say, a boring head can just remind people how handy they are!

But some folks (like me) would rather make than buy for several reasons:

1 – This is a hobby, it's the doing of things that matters, not what you build.

2 – Making things is a great way to learn and to better understand who tools work and develop and engineer's eye for design.

3 – it's incredibly satisfying using tools you have made yourself.

4 – sometimes there are savings – every time I need a new holder for my QCTP it costs me 1 2" length of 1" square bar and bit of wear on my dovetail cutter.

5 – for beginner projects that expand their stock of tools may be more useful than others

6 – tool builds usually pose a number of challenges in workholding, accuracy and finish and incorporate features that are useful in other contexts.

I suppose I could turn the question around and ask – If not various tools and accessories, what sort of projects should be in a book on milling for beginners?

Neil

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by BOB BLACKSHAW on 11/03/2016 10:09:39:

Having a good understanding of engineering but a beginner with the lathe and mill I recently purchased a book the Milling a complete course. My first impression was favorable but then looking at the jobs to be made I could not understand the logic of the author,tee nuts then afew simple jobs on to a Boring Head to a Dividing Head. These tools are cheap to purchase, the metal to make these would cost as much as the tools to be made on the course.

I have found you tube and the virtual machine shop to be my guide now on the best way to use a mill and lathe, one of the best tools I purchased this week was a edge finder for £7.00,

Bob do you have a link ?

H

[egaParticipant @ega]

martyn nutland:

Did you consider Arnold Throp's excellent little book which is WPS2?

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

In answer to Harry Wilkes post, http://www.kanabco.com is the web site for the Virtual Machine Shop.

I shall check out the book by A Throp, Thanks.

[martyn nutlandParticipant @martynnutland79495]

Didn't know about Throp. Will check that out. Thanks.

Martyn

[martyn nutlandParticipant @martynnutland79495]

I think Neil hits the rivet precisely on the head when he asks: 'what sort of project do you want to see in a book' – like Harold Hall's?

And the answer is, surely, none at all.

What a beginner wants to be told is how exactly the mill works, how to set it up and fit the tools, and above all, how to use it all safely. Little of which is contained in Hall's book.

If you understand the above, potentially, you can make anything from a T-nut to a precision boring head.

There are excellent videos on You Tube that show you precisely how to use a mill safely, what it can do and how you can set it up and maintain it to perfection. As usual most are American! But I would humbly suggest carefully selected You Tube 'films' are the way to go.

Martyn

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by martyn nutland on 13/03/2016 17:01:04:

There are excellent videos on You Tube that show you precisely how to use a mill safely, what it can do and how you can set it up and maintain it to perfection. As usual most are American! But I would humbly suggest carefully selected You Tube 'films' are the way to go.

Yes but there are also some dreadful ones. How is the beginner to distinguish good from bad?

Russell.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by martyn nutland on 13/03/2016 17:01:04:

I think Neil hits the rivet precisely on the head when he asks: 'what sort of project do you want to see in a book' – like Harold Hall's?

And the answer is, surely, none at all.

If you understand the above, potentially, you can make anything from a T-nut to a precision boring head.

That writes off G. H. Thomas and J. A. Radford, then. yes there are good beginners books with no projects in, but beginners don't have a clue what is or isn't a suitable exercise or project for a beginner and many of them will find a book with projects in it useful.

You can read as much as you like about fishing equipment and how it works, but you won't catch much without some practical 'Mr Crabtree' style advice

There could be more books with a balance between the how to and the practical ideas.

Practical build articles in MEW are consistently the ones that generate the most positive feedback.

Neil

[martyn nutlandParticipant @martynnutland79495]

Nobody's writing anybody off. All I said was, there are not many books available that deal specifically with milling. And there aren't. Plenty on lathering.

As regards You Tube and videos, a bit of common sense will enable you to quickly identify the bozos.

For nearly an hour of first class, professional, instruction try Erik Vaaler 'Essential Milling Skills: Working With A Milling Machine Part One' and take it from there. Or refer to any of Tubal Cain's very many videos that involve milling.

Martyn

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

The book referenced here is missing a couple of pages, but contains a wealth of 'non project' information.

It might restore the balance for those who don't like the 'hobbyist' titles.

MichaelG.

[VicParticipant @vic]

The book is here:

**LINK**

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

It's a real shame that there has been so much criticism of the book here. I really enjoyed it and appreciate the time and effort that went into writing it. At £7 a time HH's hardly living it up on the Costa del Sol on the proceeeds I'll be bound. Incidentally I'm also a huge fan of HH's website as a go-to resource for all manner of stuff.

I'm with Neil though, and welcome project descriptions in a book such as this as a means to learn new skills and acquire new tools and tooling.

When I bought my mill I bought the two HH books on offer; "Milling a Complete Course" WPS #35 and "The Milling Machine and Accessories, Choosing and Using" WPS #49.

The newer book #49 is more up to date and glossier. It is also a more a "How to" guide with fewer projects which may appeal to the "non-projecters" whereas #35 has more projects as the OP says. So, I'd suggest buying the book you think matches your style best but unless you can and are prepared to write a better one then… .

Jon

[Roger HeadParticipant @rogerhead16992]

Michael, just FYI (and everyone else's), I received a reply from Hathitrust within 48 hours, which was a welcome surprise. It may be a somewhat pro-forma response, but it is courteous and has the person's name and email address included. Copied below:

[Quote]

Angelina Zaytsev  <feedback(at)issues.hathitrust.org>

To (me)@my_isp

 

Thank you for reporting this issue. More information about common quality problems is available at <**LINK**>. We are investigating this issue and will work to correct it as soon as possible. Addressing problems often involves working with the vendor that digitized the work or the institution that contributed it to HathiTrust. Although we work as expeditiously as we can, depending on the underlying issue we discover, the time to resolve it could be anywhere from a couple of weeks to several months. We will be in touch as we have additional information. Please also feel free to be in touch with us to check on the status.

[/Quote]

Well done Hathitrust!

Roger

Edited By Roger Head on 15/03/2016 23:27:05 – (finger trouble)

Edited By Roger Head on 15/03/2016 23:28:14

Edited By Roger Head on 15/03/2016 23:32:03

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