Another open thought – beginners perceptions .

[John BromleyParticipant @johnbromley78794]

I too find some people on forums in general take issue with a question being asked time and time again.

If it is such a fundamental question, why are they surprised it is being asked by so many newbies. It defies belief!

And yes, I will be asking obvious and extremely basic questions in the near future.

John

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

After joining yesterday, as an outright beginner, and asking a question which basically amounts to "How do I get started, with a not-really-suitable lathe, and on the cheap to boot?" I can honestly say that at least 97% of what I have read have been positive and useful. I have even received some offers of 'direct' help, I don't think anyone could expect a better reception.

So I'd say this forum is getting it right, at least for me, so far!

As an aside, I never understood why people who ask questions through an internet forum, even the most basic, even the most common, get flamed. Space constraints are nowhere near as tight as they once were, and a thousand previous post related to what you're asking might not contain exactly the answer you need. Of course you could ask your specific query on an existing thread, but bumping a thread that might have been inactive for a considerable length of time is a no-no too…

Just like John, expect many obvious, basic questions from me in the near, and hopefully distant, future!

Steve.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, my last remaining uncle was a bank manager in one of the big four banks before he retired about 20 years ago, so when I wanted a bit a finacial advice about my pension from my previous employment I asked him if he could help me. To cut a long story short as they say he gave me a few pointers, but he told me that the ultimate decision could only be my own. After I thank he for his help he turned round and said to me " you must remember that even the Experts don't always get things right". Something I think that applies to everyone whether you are in banking, engineering, customer service or even teaching, in fact all walks of life.

Regards Nick.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Thanks.
It is nice ( even if its not me that helped..ah! You know what I mean)..that the help advice etc. is not the way it is sometimes percieved to be.. but is of help to the enquirers.

Lately this forum has felt quite negative. .not comments as such but …
Anyway if it does serve its purpose then thats good. As I say thanks

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

i have quite a considerable 'message' and email correspondence with tyro miniature loco builders on here, which i always find extremely rewarding. as i have no engineering background myself, and remember quite vividly what it was like when i started out on this daft hobby at the age of 16, i hopefully seem to be able to answer their queries and provide encouragment. i know nothing of DRO, CNC or other stuff and my workshop equipment is very basic and antiquated. the answer 'you need to buy £XXX to do this' doesnt occur in my book!

i dont know the answer to Michael's question… we all start this lark from different points and different backgrounds, mine being a complete amateur! ive 5 locos at home, and have rebuilt quite a few more for others over the years, and been privileged to know jim ewins, martin evans, bill carter, and particularly don young. none had anything like the equipment some of you have these days! i have the advantage of a secondhand dore westbury mill whereas bill carter and don young had to make do with a vertical slide on their lathes to build miniature locos!

cheers,

julian

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

I consider myself something of a beginner at this model engineering lark. This is despite having done an apprenticeship in the 60s, spent all of my working life involved in engineering, initially as a draftsman and ending up as a Production Engineer responsible for design for manufacture issues and the selection and purchasing of new machinery. How much I don't know about ME still sometimes surprises me.

One of the things that amazes me is the depth of knowledge in a forum like this. There are some regular posters who I will always try and read, regardless of the subject, because of their wide practical experience and their sometimes acerbic sense of humour. A good sense of humour is a very good thing.

Something else that, sadly, doesn't surprise me is the sometimes mind blowing pomposity of some posters. Sometimes I read their posts, just to confirm my initial thoughts, but generally try and avoid them.

Being able to scan at a fairly high rate does limit the exposure to such pomposity though

There is a response that says "there is no such thing as a stupid question". In general this forum provides fantastic solutions, sometimes there are more questions raised than answered, but basically for us (relative) newcomers almost every visit is a learning experience. Even if we have learn't something that we didn't need to know, like the date that Myfords changed paint colour from sky blue pink to sky blue rose.

cheers

Bill

Edited By Bill Pudney on 27/02/2014 23:47:46

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

(1) When I first got started things were a bit different to now . The majority of beginners did know something about engineering and about steam engines and lots of related topics just from their general experience . Many people then worked in industry or knew someone who did or they maintained their own motorcycles . The point being that the concept of making things and how to set about it was not entirely alien when they took up model engineering .

On the other hand money was scarce for most people so simple lathe and a few other tools were all that most people had ..

As for myself there was no club to go to . ( Actually there was as I found out later – what a waste of time that proved to be ) . The only people to ask anything were relatives and neighbours who worked in the factories .

ME was seen sometimes but can’t honestly say that I ever learned much from that source .

So all in all me and one school friend were mostly left to our own devices . Self help was very much the order of the day !

(2) ME had for a long time a panel of consultants that readers could send questions to and get advice . Didn’t work very well because of poor choice of consultants and the interminable delays between question and answer . Good idea in principle though – could possibly be revived in some form .

(3) Like Julian I have constructive correspondence off forum with several different people including some beginners .

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Michael Williams wrote:
"When I first got started things were a bit different to now . The majority of beginners did know something about engineering and about steam engines and lots of related topics just from their general experience . Many people then worked in industry or knew someone who did or they maintained their own motorcycles . The point being that the concept of making things and how to set about it was not entirely alien when they took up model engineering ."

I recently asked a vendor of Liquid Product if he would sell me a gallon or two. The chap had half a dozen 45 gallon drums of his stuff in the back of his wagon amongst other containers of various thinners and solvents. He looked positively panicked at the question. It was almost the basis of an outright refusal. The problem? The poor fellow didn't know what a gallon was. Last year I was asked if I could confirm there were twelve inches to the foot.

I really wish I was making this up, sadly I am not. I have a really terrifying vision of some youth downloading the plan (in digital form) of some component, sticking it in the print que for his digital printer and calling himself an "Engineer" but again, sadly, I think this has already happened.

graham.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Michael

I’m not sure that “Open Thoughts” is such a good idea – it does seem to stir up controversy!

I very much support the ambition to help newcomers and, with the positive responses of the 10% of the “newcomer” members to this thread, it seems that, overall, the forum is meeting their expectations. The thing is though how do you set a benchmark for the standard of replies to beginners and then how do you ensure that all posters adhere to that standard?

It has been suggested that members replying to queries should post details of their own work / experience / qualifications – but would that really help? For instance Michael I don’t know you, I can see no evidence of your model engineering activity or workshop, I don’t know your qualifications / experience so I can only judge you from your postings on this forum. (My overall impression is that you have a wide interest but do seem to be attracted to the theoretical and more esoteric end of engineering!) Surely what a newcomer needs is simple, straightforward, practical advice and, most of all, encouragement.

I live out in the sticks here and have little contact with others in the hobby. The forum is a “lifeline” and, should I get stuck, there is pretty certain to be someone who will offer advice. I will evaluate that advice when deciding how to proceed. For my part I will give my opinion on how I would proceed when someone else raises a problem. Sometimes that will be because I’ve used that method successfully in the past and sometimes it will be the way that I would proceed if faced with the same task. It’s up to them if they decide to follow my course – just as it is up to me if I choose to follow any advice that I’m given. The attraction of the hobby is that there are many ways to achieve the required outcome and the satisfaction is in working out the best path for YOU. It is largely a matter of experience – and experience can only be gained not taught.

As you say many of the "more senior!" members here had the advantage of some engineering background knowledge and the young wipper-snappers have been denied that. No matter – if they are interested they will pick it up and, despite my own lifetime in engineering, I still find it interesting and I learn stuff all the time.

Regards

Norman

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Typical 'newbie' questions:

"What is the best lathe for a beginner?"

"How do I machine aluminium?"

"Is stainless steel better than mild steel?"

Often, there are not simple answers – perhaps in most cases there needs to be a conversation with the person posing the question.

Neil

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

One that the belt slips on when you make a mistake.

Use a lubricant WD 30 ish is a good start.

At not rusting "yes"

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Sadly there are far too many people on here who insist on giving advice on things they have never actually done. Its the same at my local club and it drives me mad!!!

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Its called blue sky thinking Fizzy. Pity it doesn’t fall on on some of these twonks

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Stevenson on 01/03/2014 02:16:08:
Its called blue sky thinking …

.

John,

There is a perhaps more appropriate "definition" of that term on this BBC page

… and I do believe there is a place for it on this forum;

but it may not be a helpful way of responding to a beginner's question.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 01/03/2014 07:28:45

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by fizzy on 01/03/2014 01:36:34:

Sadly there are far too many people on here who insist on giving advice on things they have never actually done. Its the same at my local club and it drives me mad!!!

That thinking would have been a reall bummer for the Apollo moon shot.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

To NJH

Hi Norman ,

I’ve put a bit of information about myself in PM to you .

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by Bazyle on 01/03/2014 10:16:01:

Posted by fizzy on 01/03/2014 01:36:34:

Sadly there are far too many people on here who insist on giving advice on things they have never actually done.

What annoys me intensely is offering advice on things that I HAVE actually done only to be chastised by others as its not 'their' way.

Being in the situation of teaching apprentices with basic machining skills, we usually get asked the same questions on every course.

To this end we produced a FAQ sheet that has been laminated and issued with their toolkits. Unfortunately we forgot to allow for the fact that the majority of them have difficulty reading anything that isn't bi-thumb operated.

Personally I do not profess to be an expert, but with regard to engineering, I do what I like and like what i do, and have been doing so since the 1970's with qualifications, and before that without. (Meccano and Mamod steam engines abounded).

I regularly have members of a couple of clubs visit the workshop with items of interest and loads of discussions take place as how best to reach a satisfactory conclusion with a project.

But the general concensus is always that of 'He who aspires to teach, must also continue to learn'

[Thomas GudeParticipant @thomasgude37285]

Beginner here and as wet behind the ears as you like!

Overall I have found the advice on this forum really helpful and positive with members really caring and taking time to see how you are getting on. For me DMR, IanT and Nobby have been great help especially. I also find that some answers can give a solution that is very involved and laboured but I do not value their input any less – better out than in IMO!

I always try to google a solution to my problem before I ask the question and sometimes get the answer – often directed to this site. And doing this research gives much better understanding to your problem when coming to ask the question allowing a much better communication between me and the other members. With many threads as there are on the same topic I find that generally each problem is unique and therefore asking a question relevant to your case is the best solution and as long as there are people willing to help its all fun.

My only peeve would be when two members that know each other post on the same topic and then run away with chit-chat about how eachother's locos are progressing or some such – pretty much killing the topic in hand.

Oh, and those of you with photo avatars of yourself – blooming smile will ya?

Thomas

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Thomas,

My photo was taken by myself, holding the camera at arms length and struggling to hold it steady until it flashed, and keeping my eyes open as well. Do you really think that in those circumstances I can smile? Anyway, you should see my Bus Pass photo: there I was, in the booth, knowing it was going to flash and knowing my luck, this would occur just as I blinked. So there I am forcing my eyes to stay open, and the result is that I look like a total wrong 'un.

Cheers,

Peter G. Shaw

[ian cableParticipant @iancable23486]

not to worry peter ive seen worse ha ha, on to the subject ,of course theres room for different oppinions /methods that's what development engineers do they think outside the box, it is wrong to judge somebody because they have stated a method that worked for them we were not there to see. Some of the methods by gents like LBSC are dated but still work, but many have been super seeded by newer ideas ,and on it goes the never ending cycle of learning ian c

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