Another open thought – beginners perceptions .

Another open thought – beginners perceptions .

Home Forums Beginners questions Another open thought – beginners perceptions .

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  • #7055
    MICHAEL WILLIAMS
    Participant
      @michaelwilliams41215
      #145307
      MICHAEL WILLIAMS
      Participant
        @michaelwilliams41215

        Always lots of questions on forum from beginners .

        Answers given vary in quantity and quality but on average there is reasonable response and a range of advice given .

        Varies a bit but again on average for a response with a lot of postings advice given is typically one third very good , one third completely sound – and certainly well intended – and one third mindless twaddle .

        I’ve been wondering for a long time what beginners actually make of this advice and also if there was a way of making responses in some way more ‘ user friendly ‘ .

        Problem is I and many others can never be beginners again and with lots of experience now we just sift through the answers given at high speed reading and rejecting different ones according to interest and validity .

        Beginners on the other hand don’t usually know difference between good , bad and conflicting advice and presumably accept the lot at face value and probably get very confused and sometimes possibly totally discouraged .

        How can we help beginners in better ways ????

        Any thoughts ???

        Michael Williams

        Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 27/02/2014 10:27:57

        Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 27/02/2014 10:29:00

        #145308
        John Stevenson 1
        Participant
          @johnstevenson1

          Simple – Stop posting twaddle.

          If you can't see it, measure it, or make it, then don't post it.

          #145311
          MICHAEL WILLIAMS
          Participant
            @michaelwilliams41215

            I saw it .

            Moron .

            #145314
            Michael Gilligan
            Participant
              @michaelgilligan61133
              Posted by MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 27/02/2014 10:20:38:

              … I've been wondering for a long time what beginners actually make of this advice and also if there was a way of making responses in some way more ' user friendly ' .

              .

              1. Stay on-topic
              2. Provide a decent search facility

              MichaelG.

              #145315
              Bazyle
              Participant
                @bazyle

                It would help if beginners would read recent posts at least before asking the same question yet again.
                Also all thread titles should be vetted and changed to something sensible so beginners can easily see the subject if they do a manual review of titles. It must be particularly hard for non native English speakers to fathom some subjects.

                Most forums have a section for twaddle or at least off topic subjects and that might syphon off some of the OT content. Also some forums have 'like' or equivalent voting buttons that if not misused could allow the experts to quickly add a vote of approval

                #145317
                Gordon W
                Participant
                  @gordonw

                  Who decides who the experts are? Just go on no. of posts, or prizes won, or just people you already know, or what? This is a serious question by the way.

                  #145320
                  Bazyle
                  Participant
                    @bazyle

                    That's not easy. Some experts have entrenched views, or may not be up to speed on every subject etc. It is common for a recognised manual machinist not to know much about CNC for example.
                    Sometimes a first post even might be from a person with very specialised professional knowledge. My first post on another forum was in response to a question about a tool I possessed and other responders were demonstrating limited and erroneous undrstanding.

                    #145325
                    Russ B
                    Participant
                      @russb
                      Posted by Gordon W on 27/02/2014 11:06:57:

                      Who decides who the experts are? Just go on no. of posts, or prizes won, or just people you already know, or what? This is a serious question by the way.

                      The "right choice" for a person depends on their own ability and equipment and the right answer matches that, sometimes, people quote things which aren't wrong, but they don't apply to the particular scenario or rule set.

                      The inability to edit post's is poor too, on other forums, the OP can take 2 or 3 of the first posts "for future" and compile/update his or her findings in there following completion of solving of the problem, so the first follow up thread, contains what they found to have done the trick for that scenario.

                      #145326
                      Involute Curve
                      Participant
                        @involutecurve

                        Perhaps a FAQ thread should be started, with various Chapters Milling, CNC, Turning, within this thread all postings could be rated by selected forum members……… and then beginners could more easily be pointed to a good starting point.

                        or does this already exist on this forum?

                        #145329
                        Ady1
                        Participant
                          @ady1

                          Industry has accepted standards and this is helped through the machinery they use being relatively standard as well

                          Hobbyists have a huge variation in both tooling and facilities which makes accepted procedures etc more difficult

                          The Yahoo sites were probably the best solution because they could address an individual hobby machine and deal with its particular foibles

                          #145330
                          JasonB
                          Moderator
                            @jasonb

                            One of the big problems is that beginners don't really give enough info when asking a question so the replies have to be general rather than specifically suited to their particular situation.

                            It's also impossible to tell if the answer is comming from someone sat in their armchair who may have googled it or someone who has actual practical knowledge on the matter, this is one reason I'll often link to a photo in my reply, not only can it make things clearer for the beginner but it shows that I have been there and done it.

                            I don't see the forum software being able to have things like likes, ratings etc. as being likely.

                            J

                            #145332
                            Roderick Jenkins
                            Participant
                              @roderickjenkins93242
                              Posted by JasonB on 27/02/2014 12:05:52:

                              It's also impossible to tell if the answer is comming from someone sat in their armchair who may have googled it or someone who has actual practical knowledge on the matter, this is one reason I'll often link to a photo in my reply, not only can it make things clearer for the beginner but it shows that I have been there and done it.

                              Agreed completely. it doesn't have to be a photo – a bit of preamble helps as well "when i made my first loco…" or "when I was setting up my lathe…" gives a bit of background to help judge the validity of the rest of the answer.

                              Rod

                              #145333
                              Dullard Ard
                              Participant
                                @dullardard78275

                                Its that word Expert again…

                                Ex = Something past it's best

                                Spurt = Drip under pressure

                                It never ceases to amuse me when someone boastfully introduces themselves as an Expert in this or that….

                                Dull

                                #145336
                                JasonB
                                Moderator
                                  @jasonb
                                  Posted by Russ B on 27/02/2014 11:42:18:

                                  The inability to edit post's is poor too, on other forums, the OP can take 2 or 3 of the first posts "for future" and compile/update his or her findings in there following completion of solving of the problem, so the first follow up thread, contains what they found to have done the trick for that scenario.

                                  This forum is no different to many in that standard members have a set time in which to edit their post after which they cannot gain access again.

                                  As for posting feedback on what worked for them in a lot of cases you are lucky to get a thankyou, thats if they even show their face again as many just seem to post the once and are not seen again.

                                  J

                                  #145339
                                  MICHAEL WILLIAMS
                                  Participant
                                    @michaelwilliams41215

                                    There was no mention of experts in my opening post .

                                    Like qualifications in earlier thread there are no given rules about where good and bad advice can originate .

                                    Read back some of the longer beginner threads with the eyes of someone full of enthusiasm but so far zero engineering skills and see how much sense they make to you .

                                    There are certainly some good threads but there are others where even the technical words used would be unfamiliar making understanding what is being said impossible .

                                    Regards ,

                                    Michael Williams .

                                    #145341
                                    jason udall
                                    Participant
                                      @jasonudall57142

                                      Seeing the same question posted duplicating previous posts does tend to illicit sometimes terse/teachy responses…
                                      We are but human.
                                      If we start to “qualify” responders then we might get no replies to a given post.

                                      One thought..anyone using the Internet in any form be it forums or youtube or someones personal website..has to do the “b.s” detect and the “would that work for me/my equipment” decision. …
                                      Good luck

                                      #145344
                                      colin calver
                                      Participant
                                        @colincalver

                                        As for posting feedback on what worked for them in a lot of cases you are lucky to get a thankyou, thats if they even show their face again as many just seem to post the once and are not seen again.

                                        Recently, reluctantly, posted a question,and replied directly to the respondant. Being a beginner am relectant to ask questions because of what is known in the sailing world as snotty yachties. Only after researching all forums and google would I dare to post a question or suggestion.

                                        #145346
                                        GaryM
                                        Participant
                                          @garym

                                          I think that for all the beginners questions I've asked, I have done a fairly thorough search of this forum and the web before asking. But, it is a credit to the members of this forum how many times they are asked the same question that has been asked many times before and largely they still respond helpfully.

                                          Gary

                                          #145347
                                          John Stevenson 1
                                          Participant
                                            @johnstevenson1
                                            Posted by MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 27/02/2014 10:36:14:
                                            I saw it .

                                            Moron .

                                            Is that an abbreviation like OCCAM ? laugh

                                            I was serious, all this endless twaddle about microns [ which we can't work to ] speed of light [ which we can't afford given the last quarters electric bill ] has no place here.

                                            It's supposed to be a practical forum run by a company who produces practical magazines.

                                            There are plenty of places on the web where you can sound off on theories, chat rooms etc.

                                            This forum is what it is, it's supplied free, you don't even need to be a reader or subscriber which quite a few aren't to enjoy it.

                                            Perhaps if MTM published a new mag called Armchair Machinist a lot more would fit in here ?

                                            #145358
                                            IanT
                                            Participant
                                              @iant

                                              Well I've been doing (what I think of as) Hobbyist Engineering for about 20 years now and I still don't consider myself an "Expert" . There are clearly people here who are though, probably because they do/did some form of engineering for a living, whereas I never did.

                                              What I do have is quite a bit of 'experience' and a fair range of machine tools collected (accumulated?) over a long time. Nearly all of it is pretty old, well past it's prime and none of it cost too much. So if I see a question that is in an area where I have some of that experience, then I will generally chip in. Normally this is in relation to the machinery I have or the type/size of models that I make. But I also think herein lies the problem.

                                              Everyone has different expectations (quality, budget, time) and levels of experience within their own spheres of interest. If you build 7.25" locomotives (or restore cars, repair clocks etc.) then your expectations and experiences will be very different from mine ( I build in Gauge 3). As I've mentioned, my machine tools are pretty old and need, shall we say, a high level of sympathy but I've learned to live within their limits. In this respect, I can probably claim more 'experience' than those with newer/better machinery when the question specifically involves some kind of older machinery & their related problems.

                                              My tooling of course also effects how I approach my modelling and I prefer many "obsolete" work methods (to some newer ones) either because they suit my machine capabilities or sometimes simply because they are more affordable (e.g. cheap!). I accept that they might not always be the absolute best/most modern way but the key thing here is that they meet my particular needs and equipment.

                                              I will admit that I do occasionally get a bit peeved when people are dismissive of these methods and/or older machines, probably because their actual experience lies elsewhere in different or newer types of machinery, larger or much smaller sizes of work or perhaps industrial practice. It may well be that they are perfectly correct, that their way is the best/fastest/most efficient and I'm certainly interested in hearing about these alternatives. But there may be good reasons that I can't (or won't) use them and it might well be that others here share my needs in this respect..

                                              So whilst there are clearly some here who really are "experts" within their own fields, they may not have as much 'experience' in some things as others (who are undoubtedly less expert). I feel this is often where any conflict/confusion in the advice being offered arises.

                                              There's no particular solution to this issue, although once in the (distant) past when I saw something that I thought was particularly misleading, I will admit I contacted the OP directly and told him so (and explained why). Generally though, most of the advice given here is very well intentioned and (I'm sure) also generally helpful to the OP.

                                              Regards,

                                              IanT

                                              #145363
                                              Laurence B
                                              Participant
                                                @laurenceb

                                                There is plenty of published material about the use of lathes,milling machines and so on.Numerous books have been written over the years by,not necessarily 'experts' but those who have maybe worked in industry or have been model making for a long time.

                                                Many years ago I served an engineering apprenticeship,so I should know how to use a lathe,miller,be able to silver solder etc by now!.I had to learn,and so do beginners.They just need to be patient and learn as much as they can.And,after all,we are all still learning!

                                                #145365
                                                Peter G. Shaw
                                                Participant
                                                  @peterg-shaw75338

                                                  Similar to IanT, when I post a reply, it is almost always due to either personal knowledge and experience, ie how many Warco 220/Mashstroy C218T lathes are there out there, or as a recommendation of where to find relevant information, ie books etc.

                                                  Again like IanT, I have been doing this for 20+ years, and it is still all experimentation so when I say, for example, that I use a modified parting off tool to Len Mason's design it is because I have built it and it works for me.

                                                  I'm no expert, far from it but I have learned that there is no such thing as a silly dumb question if you do not know the answer or do not know how to find the answer (and that is probably the most important point – knowing where to find the answer).

                                                  I certainly remember my early days, and having to ask, would you believe, a ME colleague at work what a milling machine was! I am now the not-so-proud owner of a pile of Chinese junk masquerading as a milling machine.

                                                  And yes, I completely agree with Laurence B, we are all still learning, it is just that some are further up the curve than others (me in particular). Mind you, these days I keep being surprised at just how much I have learned over the last 20+ years.

                                                  So let's all be tolerant of people asking the silly dumb questions, I was once (still am) one of them.

                                                  Regards,

                                                  Peter G. Shaw

                                                  #145369
                                                  Alan .204
                                                  Participant
                                                    @alan-204

                                                    Well I am defiantly a beginner and If I ask what some people think is a simple question and they don't like it then its simple don't answer it, Since joining this forum I have come to realise there are reply's from certain people I look forward to reading because they write them with me in mind (being a beginner) and they make sense straight away and I'm very grateful, there are others that just complicate the issue by telling me I should do something different to what I asked in the first place, (not good) then there are them that moan the question has been asked before, easy don't reply then, with out the stupid question people like me ask you wouldn't have a lot to write about or moan about, keep up the good wok chaps you know who you are.

                                                    Alan.

                                                    #145375
                                                    Tim Stevens
                                                    Participant
                                                      @timstevens64731

                                                      In my experience, the better responses come not from 'experts' especially not self-promoted experts, but from people with two characteristics:

                                                      1. A good practical knowledge of the topic backed by some understanding of relevant science etc – and

                                                      2. The ability to stand in the shoes of the beginner when explaining a solution, adding notes to explain technicalities, and without being patronising either.

                                                      After reading a few posts, I think I get a good impression of those among you who fit into both these classes.

                                                      Cheers, Tim Stevens – self taught (but a teacher for 20 years, too)

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