Linisher cuts out, what to do…?

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Linisher cuts out, what to do…?

This topic has 53 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 17 October 2017 at 13:18 by Brian Sweeting 2.

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26 August 2017 at 15:35 #314037
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
My dad had an Axminster 150 x 2000 belt linisher arrive this morning but he can't get it starting… and as Axminster aren't open now until Tuesday, I thought I'd ask here to see if any kind folk might be able to point us in the right direction

This model: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-engineer-series-150mm-belt-linishers-ax942736

It is single phase.

We bought the correct cable, plug and fuse but when we start it up, it begins for less than a second but then cuts out immediately and won't start again – the fuse is blown. A new fuse just repeats the problem, it keeps blowing. Nothing trips.

Here are the details we're given on the electrics via the manual (you can also download the manual via the link above)

Voltage
The input power supply of the machine is 1/PE, AC220V for JSG75A and
JSG100A.
The input power supply of the machine is 3/PE, AC380V for other models.
!10 / 1! 5
If it is necessary to transport the machine after using, please protect cables
firstly and discharge the scrap iron.
■ Frequency
0.99～1.01 times of rated frequency ( 50 Hz , continuous working)
0.98～1.02 times of rated frequency(50Hz, short period working)
■ Harmonics
The sum of 2nd-5th distorted harmonic must not exceed 10% of RMS of
voltage. An additional 2% of RMS of line voltage is allowed to for the sum of
6th-30th harmonic.
■ Unbalanced voltage
Neither negative nor zero sequence component is allowed to exceed 2% of the
positive sequence component.
■ Short-circuited protection and incoming cable
The machine should have short-circuited protection device at the power supply end by
the end-user. The rated current is recommended as 10A, and the diameter of the
incoming line must not be less than 3×1.5mm2(Black) +1.5mm2(PE, Green-and-Yellow).

A couple of photos of the plug that he wired below. L/+ means live, we assume??

Any ideas what could be going wrong here? The cable is 5 meters by the way, I assume that alone wouldn't have any effect on the fuse ?

We're a bit lost as it seems we've done everything right… He was quite excited when it arrives but the enthusiasm has vanished since it won't start up
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26 August 2017 at 15:35 #33057
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
26 August 2017 at 15:54 #314042
Keith Long
Participant
@keithlong89920
What is the rating of the fuses that you keep blowing? Can you pull the belt over by hand, or have you tried starting up with the belt tension off?

There seems to be a discrepancy between the blurb in the catalogue that suggests a 10 amp fuse and the wiring diagram in the manual that suggests a 12 amp fuse. If the full load power is 3kw and the voltage is 230 volt then that is 13 amps continuous. Looks like you should try a heftier (but not silly big) fuse. It's most probably the initial start up current that's popping the fuses.
26 August 2017 at 16:00 #314043
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
Posted by Keith Long on 26/08/2017 15:54:39:

What is the rating of the fuses that you keep blowing? Can you pull the belt over by hand, or have you tried starting up with the belt tension off?

There seems to be a discrepancy between the blurb in the catalogue that suggests a 10 amp fuse and the wiring diagram in the manual that suggests a 12 amp fuse. If the full load power is 3kw and the voltage is 230 volt then that is 13 amps continuous. Looks like you should try a heftier (but not silly big) fuse. It's most probably the initial start up current that's popping the fuses.

Thank you Keith! I appreciate your help.

The belt turns easily by hand, but I could maybe try removing the belt and seeing if it start's without this (although I don't know why that would cause a fuse to blow, and it is 3HP, so you'd think if the tension was too high it would still move).

I hadn't noticed anything re the fuse difference, what page are you seeing the diagram on? I'll suggest trying a 13am fuse in a moment to him and see what happens…
26 August 2017 at 16:04 #314044
Mike Poole
Participant
@mikepoole82104
I would think that starting a 3.0kw motor on a ten amp fuse is likely to pop the fuse, try removing the abrasive belt and see if it will start off load. Personally I would be inclined to up rate the fuse and see if it starts, switch off quickly if it does not start. The ideal solution would be to check the motor does not have a fault before deviating from the recommended values. As it is brand new it is probably best not to do anything to invalidate the warranty and wait till Tuesday. Slipping the abrasive belt off will not invalidate the warranty.

Mike
26 August 2017 at 16:13 #314045
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
What have you got on the other end of your 5m lead, a 13amp plug top? You really want to wire that 16A socket directly
26 August 2017 at 16:17 #314046
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
Update: Tried 13 amp fuse, no real difference. Begins to start then cuts out immediately. ..
26 August 2017 at 16:19 #314047
Keith Long
Participant
@keithlong89920
The manual I was looking at was the download suggested in the Axminster catalogue (on-line). The wiring diagram is on page 16, shows what I take to be fuses (12A) in the live and neutral legs feeding the machine. A 13 amp fuse certainly shouldn't cause any problems, that's the minimum I'd be using for a 3kw machine on a normal 240v single phase supply. The motor could well be trying to draw several times its full load current briefly on start up so be prepared for the 13 amp to pop as well!

Edit

I see it did!!!

Edited By Keith Long on 26/08/2017 16:21:15
26 August 2017 at 16:19 #314048
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
Posted by JasonB on 26/08/2017 16:13:48:

What have you got on the other end of your 5m lead, a 13amp plug top? You really want to wire that 16A socket directly

Wire it directly into a 16A socket? Would that make much difference? We haven't yet committed to a location to keep it, but would be able to do this eventually.
26 August 2017 at 16:20 #314049
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
Posted by Mike Poole on 26/08/2017 16:04:02:

I would think that starting a 3.0kw motor on a ten amp fuse is likely to pop the fuse, try removing the abrasive belt and see if it will start off load. Personally I would be inclined to up rate the fuse and see if it starts, switch off quickly if it does not start. The ideal solution would be to check the motor does not have a fault before deviating from the recommended values. As it is brand new it is probably best not to do anything to invalidate the warranty and wait till Tuesday. Slipping the abrasive belt off will not invalidate the warranty.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I have no idea how we'd test the motor unfortunately. I may try slipping off the belt and testing with a higher amp fuse if we have some around, thank you for the suggestion.
26 August 2017 at 16:25 #314050
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
If its rated 3kW @ 230V, that's about 13 amps. It's a bit like trying to run a fan heater on full heat AND a kettle on the same plug.

As Jason says, it should be wired directly to a suitable amperage supply with a 16A socket. Even a 13A fuse will be pushing you luck and almost certain to overheat even if it doesn't keep blowing.

Axminster's website says: "N.B. These machines are designed to be bolted to the floor for stability, and we recommend that they are hard wired by a competent electrician."

Neil

Edit the manual is confusing as 10A fuses would be OK for 3-phase use, but not single phase.

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 26/08/2017 16:38:05
26 August 2017 at 16:26 #314051
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
If you are going to be using machines that will draw these sorts of current then get some 16A wall mounted socket outlets wired back to your fuseboard on a dedicated circuit.

The start up current is likely to be more than a 13A fuse in a 3 pin plug can take.
26 August 2017 at 16:30 #314052
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
I've deleted a post which made totally unfounded criticism of the supplier.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 26/08/2017 16:30:49
26 August 2017 at 17:03 #314054
Frances IoM
Participant
@francesiom58905
even on a 16A supply you will probably need a type C RCBO (ie a slow overcurrent trip) to allow for the starting inrush current
26 August 2017 at 17:25 #314058
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/08/2017 16:25:14:

If its rated 3kW @ 230V, that's about 13 amps. It's a bit like trying to run a fan heater on full heat AND a kettle on the same plug.

As Jason says, it should be wired directly to a suitable amperage supply with a 16A socket. Even a 13A fuse will be pushing you luck and almost certain to overheat even if it doesn't keep blowing.

Axminster's website says: "N.B. These machines are designed to be bolted to the floor for stability, and we recommend that they are hard wired by a competent electrician."

Neil

Edit the manual is confusing as 10A fuses would be OK for 3-phase use, but not single phase.

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 26/08/2017 16:38:05

Thanks Neil. It is confusing… not really sure what amp the fuse should be for Single Phase. But you are right, i think this should be hard wired in.
26 August 2017 at 17:26 #314059
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
Posted by Frances IoM on 26/08/2017 17:03:54:
even on a 16A supply you will probably need a type C RCBO (ie a slow overcurrent trip) to allow for the starting inrush current

Would the best solution be to hard wire it into a 16amp socket, and then put a Type C RCBO in front of that? Is that how it would work? We do have an electrician we use, but if it's relatively simple my dad is quite competent at doing smaller tasks.
26 August 2017 at 17:27 #314060
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
Do we think this would work?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-10a-30ma-single-pole-type-c-rcbo/6398p
26 August 2017 at 17:28 #314061
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
Posted by JasonB on 26/08/2017 16:26:05:

If you are going to be using machines that will draw these sorts of current then get some 16A wall mounted socket outlets wired back to your fuseboard on a dedicated circuit.

The start up current is likely to be more than a 13A fuse in a 3 pin plug can take.

Thanks Jason. This certainly seems to make sense as to why it begins to start up and then cuts off immediately (and blows the fuse)
26 August 2017 at 17:29 #314063
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
No, you would replace the appropriate trip back at the fuse board.

Neil
26 August 2017 at 17:58 #314067
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/08/2017 17:29:22:

No, you would replace the appropriate trip back at the fuse board.

Neil

Ah I see… I'm not sure this could be done on the fuse board in the house… this is running to an outbuilding (which has no fuse board). Would it be feasible / make sense to add a fuse board in the outbuilding?
26 August 2017 at 18:06 #314068
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
The motor is rated 3kW at 220V. Doesn't that mean it would be a 3.6kW motor at 240V? If so that's nearly 15Amps.

My guess is that the machine's motor is too big for a standard 13A feed hence Axminster's recommendation to have it wired by an electrician. .

Dave
26 August 2017 at 18:27 #314069
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Yes best bet is to have a separate fuse board in the workshop with circuits for lighting, sockets and also the heavier machines. Talk with your electrician as you may well now be drawing more current from the house than you were before so cable sizes etc need to be right.

Had the machine been able to run off a 13amp plug then I'm sure Axminster would have supplied it with one rather than the 16A

That screwfix one is too low an ampage.

Edited By JasonB on 26/08/2017 18:28:51
26 August 2017 at 18:31 #314070
Frances IoM
Participant
@francesiom58905
this machine + whatever other machines you run are too much for what sounds like a trailing cable fed from a domestic 13A socket – you need to get a professional electrician to look at your set up – certainly I suspect a separate fuse board will be required but also the correct supply cable + earthing which will depend on the distance to the outbuilding.
26 August 2017 at 18:32 #314071
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Posted by Richard Harris 5 on 26/08/2017 17:58:32:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/08/2017 17:29:22:

No, you would replace the appropriate trip back at the fuse board.

Neil

Ah I see… I'm not sure this could be done on the fuse board in the house… this is running to an outbuilding (which has no fuse board). Would it be feasible / make sense to add a fuse board in the outbuilding?

Yes.

My shed has a 32A (IIRC) spur from the main board and a small distribbution box with 3-way+ RCCB (lights, ring main, heater or could be a 16A outlet) .

Neil
26 August 2017 at 19:50 #314098
Richard Harris 5
Participant
@richardharris5
Thanks all for your help, it is appreciated. I'll pass this info onto my dad. He has been speaking for a while about sorting out the electrics in the outbuilding and having the electrician take a look at it, so this seems like a prime opportunity to get it sorted…
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