Yet another ‘which mill shall I buy’

[Richard –Participant @richard-3]

I had a Bridgeport but due to low height of workshop I could only put it in one place, simply didn't work.

I sold it, done some research and got an old Alexander toolmaster, Deckel FP1 copy, best thing I ever did, you really can do about everything with it, yes they have problems eg not a lot of room on the Z axis above the table but there's always a way around it.

Richard

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

Thank you all very much for the various bits of advice.

I won't be going for a bridgeport. It's a shed not a garage so it has a single door not a garage door. Even if I could get it in, there would be not much room left for me. When I get a bigger shed….

As I enter my shed, there's a bench on the left which has the CMD 10 near the door, then a vice. The vice is about 1 metre in but could be moved along. After the bench (8 foot) there's a one meter gap before my lathe bench which is somewhat less sturdy and about 125mm.

I'd originally thought that the new machine would have to sit where the CMD 10 is, which restricts my options considerably. Only the smaller Siegs would fit in. However, I've thought that the gap could host the new mill provided that whatever I stand it on raised the table / handles above the bench heights (83cm on the left and 89 on the right, chosen to suit my height!).

IN a pinch I can move the lathe to where the CMD 10 is, though the shelving storage is a bit lathe specific and would need re-arranging.

So on that basis, all of the machines could be made to fit. Well, the ARC SX3.5DPZ would struggle as might the VMC.

The VMC seems to have found a lot of favour. For me the drawback might be the (relatively) small spindle to table. I've pushed the CMD10 to the limit and the VMC has only 12 cm more height. (in contrast to some of the others heading for 50cm of space – twice the CMD 10).

Finally, I really would like top have DRO, but the extra 500 quid is daunting – be it as part of the package or something bought from a specialist like machine DRO.

From what I can see there are DIY options which would come in at a much lower price, but I imagine there are drawbacks. As an aside, I've worked with encoders in the (distant) past and do software for a living, so the design, build and coding don't daunt. Might be quite nice to have an inside project for the winter.

Can anyone provide pointers? Do the cheap capacatitive scales work well?

Iain

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

I use this type on my VMC. They are more than accurate enough for my needs and not expensive.

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

Thanks, Hollowpoint.

I suppose I also wanted to ask what it was about the VMC which generated such positive feedback? Is it just the sheer mass of the beast (nearly half a ton!) or is there something about a knee which makes the mill better?

 

Related to that – the specs show a table size of 660mm but a lateral movement of only 370 which is on the lower side of the mills I'm looking at.  what does it do with the other 290mm?

 

Iain

Edited By Iain Downs on 11/11/2019 07:07:53

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Iain Downs on 11/11/2019 07:05:51:

[…]

Related to that – the specs show a table size of 660mm but a lateral movement of only 370 which is on the lower side of the mills I'm looking at. what does it do with the other 290mm?

.

I am not familiar with the VMC, or the alternatives, but that ^^^ seems to indicate that it is well-proportioned: It’s the others that I would be worrying about. … How do they maintain stiffness in a table with a big overhang ?

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Iain Downs on 11/11/2019 07:05:51:

Related to that – the specs show a table size of 660mm but a lateral movement of only 370 which is on the lower side of the mills I'm looking at. what does it do with the other 290mm?

290mm sounds a large number but when compared to say a SX3.5 with 240mm loss it's only 50mm difference. I'd say a good proportion of that is to do with the width of the female dovetail that the table slides in and the rest how close the end plates can get without hitting anything.

The mass/bulk issue is an interesting one, it certainly helped when HSS tooling ruled and you would be taking slow heavy cuts but now with the abundance of carbide you can remove the same amount of metal in the same time with shallower cuts or smaller diameter tools but using more passes as their higher cutting speeds mean you can feed so much faster and these smaller metal removal rates per pass don't need such a rigid machine.

For example in the past you may have used a flycutter to surface a piece of say 3" wide metal and speed may have been restricted by it being out of balance, feed would be limited due to one cutting edge and an HSS tool. Now you can use a 80mm shell mill with six carbide inserts. This can be fed six times as fast due to the number of cutting edges and multiply that two or 3 fold due to carbides cutting speed. So 12 times as much metal removed in the same time or lighten the amount removed per pass to say 1/3rd and you can still remove 4 times as much metal in the same time.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 11/11/2019 08:39:38:

[…]

The mass/bulk issue is an interesting one, it certainly helped when HSS tooling ruled and you would be taking slow heavy cuts but now with the abundance of carbide you can remove the same amount of metal in the same time with shallower cuts or smaller diameter tools but using more passes as their higher cutting speeds mean you can feed so much faster and these smaller metal removal rates per pass don't need such a rigid machine.

For example in the past you may have used a flycutter to surface a piece of say 3" wide metal and speed may have been restricted by it being out of balance, feed would be limited due to one cutting edge and an HSS tool. Now you can use a 80mm shell mill with six carbide inserts. This can be fed six times as fast due to the number of cutting edges and multiply that two or 3 fold due to carbides cutting speed. So 12 times as much metal removed in the same time or lighten the amount removed per pass to say 1/3rd and you can still remove 4 times as much metal in the same time.

.

That’s a very interesting and significant point, Jason

The performance envelope of affordable carbide inserts has changed enormously in recent decades

… ancient folk-memories of carbide tooling needing machines of great power and stiffness are irrelevant.

MichaelG.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Hard to say why the VMC type are so popular, but they are. Before getting mine I’d only ever used proper knee mills like Tom Senior, Alexander and Elliott Omnimill. I considered a mill drill but the round column has issues that many don’t seem to like. I also looked at the square column type but they seemed expensive for the relatively small amount of metal you’re getting. Rigidity is everything with a mill and the VMC seemed solidly built for such a modest size machine. Being floor standing was a bonus for me when I first bought it as no need to hire a hoist to lift it onto a bench. When I moved house it was easily split into three pieces for transporting. I did have to get that hoist in the end though to take it apart and put it back together again! One question to ask others is, knowing what you know now would you buy a VMC again? In my case I’d have to say yes, it’s been a very good little mill. If it has the working envelope you need then it will work for you. If not move on and get something bigger?

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Get one of these ,ive never regreted it.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Posted by Hollowpoint on 10/11/2019 22:48:16:

I use this type on my VMC. They are more than accurate enough for my needs and not expensive.

I also have these fitted to my WM 16 & so far they have proved invaluable & accurate enough for all my needs. Have just changed batteries after approx a year so battery life is not an issue with me, well worth the outlay. Usual disclaimer applies.

George.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Posted by mechman48 on 11/11/2019 15:43:33:

Posted by Hollowpoint on 10/11/2019 22:48:16:

I use this type on my VMC. They are more than accurate enough for my needs and not expensive.

I also have these fitted to my WM 16 & so far they have proved invaluable & accurate enough for all my needs. Have just changed batteries after approx a year so battery life is not an issue with me, well worth the outlay. Usual disclaimer applies.

George.

Snap, I also fitted them to my SX2 and have found them to be accurate and reliable.

Ron

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Posted by Iain Downs on 11/11/2019 07:05:51:

Thanks, Hollowpoint.

I suppose I also wanted to ask what it was about the VMC which generated such positive feedback? Is it just the sheer mass of the beast (nearly half a ton!) or is there something about a knee which makes the mill better?

Related to that – the specs show a table size of 660mm but a lateral movement of only 370 which is on the lower side of the mills I'm looking at. what does it do with the other 290mm?

Iain

Edited By Iain Downs on 11/11/2019 07:07:53

It's just a well built lump of iron and to me it seems more rigid than others in the same price range. One of the factors that did it for me though is the simple belt and pulley arrangement. The gear head mills make much more noise and if you managed to strip a gear it means you are out of action for a while. On the VMC if I snap a belt (and its very unlikely) I can find something in any common a garden motorspares. The pulley setup also lends itself to easy conversion to a VFD if I choose to at a later date.

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

Thanks, again.

I've been running though my long list of 30 mills which encompassed all the usual suspects and trying to slim them down.

Here's my logic so far, which I would appreciate any feedback on.

I want a decent stroke. 30mm on the CMD10 is very frustrating. Most of my short list run to 70mm or more. The exception is the Amadeal AMAT25LV (long table) which looks a contender because it's half the price of the top end machine, but still quite capable.

I've discarded machines with DRO on the grounds that I can do-it-myself cheaper. The ARC scales (or the equivalent direct from China) make this quite affordable and many of the short list have a digital depth meter.

I'm only considering R8 machines. MT3/4 Pooh! Old fashioned.

I've discarded Axminister because they are too far away to visit, their service reputation is not among the best and the machines seem a little more expensive than the same from ARC.

Here's one I want an opinion on. I've (mainly) discarded machines with a low top speed. Say below 2000 rpm. Low speed is OK for removing chunks of metal with a large mill, but I think not so good for detail work with a 3mm mill or very fine drills. Which makes a machine with higher speed options more flexible?

I'm also contemplating discarding the few with motors below 1KW. This may be a bit extreme given that I'm used to 150 watts of sheer delicacy, but the only rule in this forum is that a big machine is better than a little one! (no flame wars, please I appreciate that this isn't always true).

Finally is table movement. Compared to my CMD10 370×152 (VMC) is continental, but the competition can to 560×230 or better. Why would I need this? Why would I not?

This is what my short list currently looks like, ordered in descending order of cost.

ARC SX3.5DZP
AMADEAL AMAT45V
WARCO VMC
WARCO GH Universal Metric
amadeal amat45fg
ARC SX3 HiTorque
WARCO WM18
SPG SP 2217 30B LV
Toolco VM32B
ARC SX2.7L HiTorque
ARC SX2.7 HiTorque
AMADEAL AMAT25LV (Long Table)

I must admit that the Yorkshire part of me is starting to consider the costs a bit more. Not only would I need to buy the mill, but collets, clamps and arbors to replace the current MT2 tooling.

Comments advice, experiences all welcome!

Iain

Iain

[Cabinet EnforcerParticipant @cabinetenforcer]

I have an AMAT45V, I'm fairly sure they aren't 1500quid though, only the geared head ones with the six speed box were ever near that cheap?

I put mine on a (temporaryish) stand made from 100mm fencing posts, it's easily strong enough, but you description of your bench sounds like it would provide differing support across the bottom, I could imagine issues with vibration when cutting, 300kg is a lot and having it all bearing straight down over seems sensible, you do not want anything that big starting to jump about.

Forgetting the stand for a moment, you said it's to go in a shed, is it on a concrete slab? Also, even breaking it down into parts leaves you with bits that still really need lifting equipment, and a normal sized doorway will present challenges.

The amount of space needed shouldn't be underestimated, table length plus movement plus handles plus a bit of room adds up to quite a lot.

I have a DRO as supplied, and couldn't imagine trying to do any sensible work without it, big tables mean an awful lot of cranking handles, this is much more manageable when you don't have to worry about counting turns, the ability to easily do PCDs is also worth the price alone.

I do like the machine, it has a lot of capability for the money, but my machining experience is pretty limited so I'm not too qualified to give an opinion.

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

HI, Mr Enforcer.

No the AMAT45V currently runs in at around 2300 quid. Which is near the top end of my options (beaten only by the SX2.5DZP).

Yes the shed is on Concrete – about 4 inches I think. I am concerned about the doorway and regardless of what I get I expect I will need mechanical help (up to 100kg might work with two stout blokes, but above that would definitely need a hoist).

Iain

[Roger VaneParticipant @rogervane67137]

In praise of the Warco VMC …..

Although I'd love a Bridgeport, it would be far too large for my workshop and has features which I would probably never use. As my best alternative, around 10 years ago I purchased a VMC from Warco.

After using a mill / drill for many years, the VMC is pure luxury, although I have personalised it somewhat. Firstly, I ordered a non-stock machine as I wanted imperial lead screws, an R8 spindle (far better than MT), and a 3 phase motor – delivery was around 6 months, which was ideal as I was moving the workshop at the time. I also ordered the wide drip tray which I considered essential.

In order to use the machine the first job was to fit an inverter from Newton Tesla, complete with their remote control box. This was a huge improvement over the standard belt changing system that I'd been using with the mill / drill.

I also fitted 3-axis digital readouts, with the X-axis scale fitted to the front of the table so as not to restrict Y-axis movement. Other additions have included two small LED lights (home designed and made), a full coolant system and revised X / Y axis stops.

Overall, I have found the VMC to be a good, solid and accurate machine which has done everything asked of it, although it did have one limitation which irritated me. I found that the distance between the spindle nose and table was insufficient for my needs – the solution was a 4" raising block which I made from Meehanite. This is just about possible on my Super 7 using a 6" 4-jaw chuck with a screwed body rather than the backplate style.

Just one more addition to make, and that's to add a digital scale to the quill down feed, complete with a revised quill stop.

Would I recommend the VMC for consideration? Certainly.

PS If anyone is interested in the fitment of the X-axis DRO (with new table stops) to the front of the table, the LED lights or the raising block then I have covered these with articles in either ME or MEW.

[ZanParticipant @zan]

Re Bridgeport versatility and moving it

mine with. 42” table came in on a pallet truck through a standard door . The head was upside down to get it low enough to get under the door. The table was then fitted after positioning.

when I extended the workshop, I had to move it 25 ‘ and rotate it 180 degrees. This was easily accomplished in a couple of hours on my own by sliding on steel strips and round bars using a standard crow bar to lever it a n inch or so at a time, it wasn’t difficult, just needed a lot of care to keep fingers out of the way.

i have only used the head twist tor nod once in 15 years but the extending head enables very tall pieces to be drilled( boiler backhead) when it’s sat on the top of the knee to get the head room and in addition a very large job which was hung over the front. The auto down feed is not oft used, but combined with the boring head it’s indispensable., e.g boring/ fly cutting the base of a 7/14” chimney base makes this a very straightforward task.

The rotating column is brilliant , I keep a heavy vice well on the left of the table, an accurate swivel vice for most use in the centre, leaving a couple of feet on the right for 8” rotary table or dividing head. I leave two ring spanner’s almost permanently mounted so a 1/4 turn will release it to swivel the rotated  to the extremes .  The right one is also used for the draw bar so it is also in a handy storage position.

I also haven't used the quill master Don’t worry about metric or imperial machine. Mine is an imperial machine, but it has a metric table screw, I didn’t find this out for 10 years as I always use the dro converting to single phase was not difficult but needed a lot of head scratching and a couple of new contactors at 240 v and removal of a lot of the overload fuses.

my advice is simple. Get the biggest xxxxxxxx you can fit in your shop!

Edited By Zan on 12/11/2019 13:32:18

[VicParticipant @vic]

It takes me under a minute to change belt speeds on my VMC but if you have a belt allergy Warco do sell a variable speed model.

**LINK**

Some folks have made raising blocks for their VMC’s but many seem happy with the available Z. If they were available off the shelf I’d probably buy a modest size raiser block.

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Posted by mark smith 20 on 11/11/2019 11:07:56:

Get one of these ,ive never regreted it.

Hi Mark, is it a Deckel?

I could really fancy one of those, it's even better than my Centec 2B

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Posted by Vic on 12/11/2019 13:31:40:

Some folks have made raising blocks for their VMC’s but many seem happy with the available Z. If they were available off the shelf I’d probably buy a modest size raiser block.

See my album called VMC for a raising block I made for a friend of mine.

[Roger VaneParticipant @rogervane67137]

Vic

Maybe I have a 'belt allergy', and I guess that it's down to personal preference in the end. I would agree that it only takes less than a minute to change belt ratios, but I found from using the mill / drill that I could do that many times in a day which adds up to a considerable amount of lost productive time. Even though it is for hobby use, the lost productive time is important, particularly if time available to be spent in the workshop is limited.

However, there are other benefits to using a variable speed drive apart from changing speeds (which is instantaneous). The standard VMC only has 9 speeds, whereas the variable speed drive has as many as you want at the turn of a knob. Also, with the Newton Tesla remote control box there is also a 'jog' function, which I find invaluable for tapping holes under power. The Warco variable speed VMC was not available until recently.

I was so impressed with the inverter drive that I have also fitted my Myford with a package, as has a friend. Neither of us would wish to return to belt changing on a regular basis.

As for the raising block, I found that I really needed that extra headroom for the type of work that I undertake, and the tooling that I use. Had I been able to buy one 'off the shelf' then certainly I would have done so, but requests to Warco to supply proved unsuccessful.

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Posted by Gary Wooding on 12/11/2019 14:21:59:

Posted by mark smith 20 on 11/11/2019 11:07:56:

Get one of these ,ive never regreted it.

Hi Mark, is it a Deckel?

I could really fancy one of those, it's even better than my Centec 2B

Hi Gary, not a deckel but a GHA Alexander, so basically a clone.

[VicParticipant @vic]

We had an Alexander where I used to work, very nice machine. What taper is it in the vertical head, they never managed to identify it?

[Richard –Participant @richard-3]

The Alex vertical head is 4mt, the original draw bar is S20, I'm getting quite proficient at cutting it, both internal and external.

I've done allsorts on mine, if you mount off the vertical where the table fits you can bore all the way to the floor!!

Point to note when using a vfd you will still be changing belts as you lose torque,

Richard

 

Edited By Richard – on 12/11/2019 16:17:20

[BC ProfParticipant @bcprof]

After the circuit board on my x3 mill failed I went for a VMC with bets and pullies ( KISS). I have a lump of alloy to make a riser block but have not yet got around to making it . I have been told that Warco and other suppliers can not keep riser blocks "on the shelf" because of the variation between batches of the machines . Hence it is a take the head of, do the measuring of that particular machine ,machine the spacer and then put it back together again exercise .

Brian

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