What do I buy & from where?

[Jack Foreman 1Participant @jackforeman1]

I appreciate that this may initiate a 'storm' of opinion, and for that I apologize in advance ~ however, I would like to purchase a single phase metal turning lathe.
I am a woodturner, so understand 'turning' as a to the physics of the matter, but as to metal turning, I am a relative ignoramus.

The reason:
I want to be able to turn metal components for many applications, including parts for my wood-turning lathes. [I can't imagine that I will ever be proficient enough to enter the world of model making]

The Question:
What do I buy? New or S/H? Make? Capacity? Home or foreign manufacturer? Gearbox or change-wheels?
I have an anticipated budget of approx £2.5K [but can be reasonably flexible]
I would prefer a free standing unit rather than bench mounted. Due to space available in my workshop, I would have to restrict unit length to 5'-0" max.

I am unlikely to ever want to produce anything longer that approx 1'-6", nor a greater diameter than 9".
I want to be able to bore. And screw-cut [once I have learned how to do it]
As well as all of the conventional turning procedures.

All/any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Jack

[Jack Foreman 1Participant @jackforeman1]

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If you want a good second hand one you've got about 4 hours left to decide…

[NJHParticipant @njh]

With the greatest respect to Ady I suggest that buying a machine in haste from eBay is the last thing you should do! It may well be a good buy but you need to see the machine first and have someone with you who can cast a knowledgeable eye over the goods. The whole " Model Engineering" scene is a learning experience ( for those of us unlucky enough not to have done a "metalwork job" ) and, indeed, part of the attraction is research into how to do things . The best advice that I can offer is READ lots ( Model Engineer / Model engineers Workshop ?) and find someone with experience – join a club maybe?

As to new or used machines . Well pound for pound you will get a more substantial S/H lathe but how has it been treated and how worn is it ? Are spares available if/ when required? A new machine will have a warrantee and some support for spares will be available ( for a while at least!)

Once you have a lathe, of course, many parts can be made.

Good luck!

Norman

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

I would advise against making any rush decision – unless you're in a hurry or see something really good come up locally, watch all used lathes on ebay (check the completed/sold listings too) and homeworkshop.org.uk and on the small ads here for a few weeks before you buy to get an idea of the market first. Also ask around in local engineering circles maybe for retiring and/or sadly deceased engineers… You have a relatively generous budget so there will always be options.

Buying new is appealing as you won't have to worry about possible wear, but that's not as much of an issue as it might appear. And you do tend to get a lot more metal for your money if you go secondhand, especially for a floor standing size lathe – and look for a machine with a lot of 'kit' with it too, so you're not stuck for hard to find (and/or expensive) accessories later. A decent brand secondhand machine is certainly my preference…

If some kind person here could confirm the overall length is under five feet, I would say watch ebay for a Boxford – read up here:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/boxford/index.html

and as you'll see they're plentiful second hand, so parts, accessories and advice are easily available. Ideally you want the AUD for its floor standing (cabinet) mount and the 'A' signifies the screwcutting gearbox which you will definitely appreciate in due course rather than changegears. Though the price is perhaps a tad high (and it's for collection from Somerset, which may or may not be any good depending on where you are) look at e.g.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271501285021

for an example of the kind of bundle of kit you should be trying to find with whatever lathe you buy. Chucks, faceplate, steadies are the main ones. Ideally a quick change toolpost system with as many holders as possible would be good. But the more bits the better, means you can get started without further expenditure and delay.

If you're electrically minded don't rule out three phase BTW – not a huge expense to power via an inverter and gain variable speed and smoother running. But that can always wait for later.

Also suggest you get a copy of Sparey's 'Amateur's Lathe' – excellent beginners book on lathe work.

If you're not intimidated by a more 'serious' machine you could even consider a Colchester Chipmaster! Should be under five feet long I'm fairly sure:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/chipmaster/

Less demand for this weight of machine so they often go for a song. Transport (and three phase) puts most people off but there are various ways and means to transport/move these larger machines – including hiring an expert, which your budget would likely cover – ask again here if it's an issue.

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Jack, You have made some parameters with the maximum size you think you want to machine but remember within reason what will do large will also do small ! Within reason !

You mention screw cutting well if you are intending to do a fair amount I would recommend buying a machine with a (norton) screw cutting gearbox. Then there is another question, will do predominantly imperial or metric threads? This will determine whether you purchase an imperial or metric machine. Yes you can do both threads on both machineS but the transposition makes screw cutting more difficult either way — metric/ imperial or imperial / metric.

Home brew or import? Well personally I would try to buy European made but have to say the better known Chinese imports have improved enormously or the years and now represent good value and although I have never used one many people turn out some excellent work on these machines.

If you opt for a used machine and don't know enough to make an informed purchase I would suggest taking a knowledgable friend with you particularly if it's a private sale and don't buy unseen.

hope this helps a little. John

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Are you thinking of a lathe AND mill? That is a pretty good budget relative to most of us, especially starting up so could get both or a damn good lathe that might just be a wasted asset. Ban yourself from Ebay until you have a lot more understanding of what it's all about which you can get from reading the last six months of posts on here. There is a new "which lathe" thread every week but they often have unrelated titles (like this one) and also other seemingly unrelated threads can accidently cover the right subject.

Owing to transport factors location can be important both for the machine and later supplies so what is a good buy in Orkney is not the same in Nottingham.

Weigh the advice carefully. Lots of contributors get a bit carried away with recommending how to spend other people's money as it is so much easier than using your own. Also some are professional and can afford to pay £300 for a tool they will use twice a week which is not a very sensible option for an amateur who will use it twice a year.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

My Boxford AUD 5" metric lathe is 4 feet long by 2 feet wide the latter includes the splash back which stands the machine off the wall slightly.

A Colchester Bantam my well fit the bill as they have a footprint of about 4 feet 6 inches by 2 feet ish.

It may be worth you while to visit the likes of G and M tools (see link on right) Home and Workshop or Axminster and alike dependant on location at least to get a feel for what you are likely to need.  

 

 

Edited By Bob Brown 1 on 04/07/2014 15:51:25

[Jack Foreman 1Participant @jackforeman1]

Thank you all – sincerely. For the advice, extent, and obvious experiential wisdom it contains.
Very much appreciated.
Transport and weight are not a particular problem, as I have a 1Tonne+ trailer and a 2 Tonne engine hoist [for collection and transport of tree trunks/root boles etc.] And I live in Northampton, which is fairly central, so making travel a viable option in any direction. [with the possible exception of to Orkney, of course]
I have spotted the Boxford in Minehead. I believe that has a Norton gearbox
I have also, this evening, been referred [by a friend, but not an engineer] to a Harrison L5a, which from the photos available looks a very nicely maintained machine. Located in Lancs, and well within budget. Quite a few goodies with it too.

I've looked at a few Colchesters – my only concern being that many of them look worn out, or at least, to have had a fairly hard commercial life.

" …. you get a copy of Sparey's 'Amateur's Lathe' – excellent beginners book" Thank you. I'll look out for that.

Once again, many thanks.
If anyone has any observations on the Harrison L5a, I would be interested to hear your views.

Jack

[Jack Foreman 1Participant @jackforeman1]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 04/07/2014 15:41:13:

worth you while to visit the likes of G and M tools (see link on right)

Thank you Bob. I've had a quick look through G&M Tools. I will return to it in the morning. There is a nice looking Harrison 140 in there
HomeandWorkshop I have looked at, on several occasions, during the last few weeks. I thought that their prices were on the high side compared with what some other retailers are offering. [it may be that what they are offering is better quality of course.]

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Harrison's are, by and large, very well made and if it is at the right price in good condition you can't go far wrong.

graham.

[Jack Foreman 1Participant @jackforeman1]

I have subscribed to receive the Model Engineer (P&D), so will in time, have a source of established advice instruction. And access to the Archive.

[Tony RayParticipant @tonyray65007]

Jack,

Lathes are like houses – you need to view a few before you'll get an idea of what suits you and what looks like good value. Unfortunately you can't readily pay someone to do a survey. But when house buying you will have an idea of what you are after beds receptions garden workshop etc. You need to establish

swing or centre height

bed length

min spindle bore – nothing worse than too small

spindle nose fitting – screw, L00 or. Camlock

single or 3 phase

accessories – far cheaper usually together them with the machine than searching afterwards

IMHO you'll need a 3 jaw, 4 jaw and a fixed steady.

Personally I did not find Sparey that useful particularly as the images are poorly reproduced.

You will want a mill at some point and be prepared that tooling will be 1/2 the cost of your lathe.

Although the likes of Bantams look aged they are built for industrial use and may wel still out perform far eastern machines.

I agree ebay is a bit risky unless you have a knowledgeable. Friend and can view the offerings. Far better to pay more forma reputable dealer and be totally satisfied than end up with a lemon that you are constantly being let down by or have to sell on. A good lathe is an investment

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

I would like to point out that some of the machines mentioned could potentially be 40 – 70 years old. New paint and scotch brite don't improve accuracy. There are a great many people trying to pass worn out machines at top prices.

A machine that has been flogged to death is only going to frustrate you. You will end up making mistakes and not knowing wether it is the machine or you that is wrong.

That said if you do come across the gem (and they are out there) then you can end up with a machine that should have no niggly problems to sort out and be a delight to use.

Also if buying second hand at that kind of money I would be looking for it to be complete with accessories ( good 3 jaw with both sets of jaws, 4 jaw, faceplate, steadies at the very least ) .

Getting advice off someone who knows is an absolute must in my opinion.

£2500 is a good budget that buying new or second hand should get you a machine that will do all you need.

Good luck David

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Ex school/college usually have not been flogged to death as they will have only been used for short periods of time and can often be a good buy. Ex tool room machines are another that may not have had a hard life. Machines that have been in a production environment can be well used and abused.

It is possible to refurbish machines back to a good condition just ask Boxford **LINK** even after 50 years.

Bob

[Jack Foreman 1Participant @jackforeman1]

Thanks, David and Bob. Interesting observations.
It may be because I am an old skeptic, but I have come across a lot of photos of machines, apparently from schools [or scools and in one case scoles] or colleges [or colages] which have been so badly maintained and are coated with so much rust that the the principals of the institutions must have been taken out and shot. I assume that the sellers are trusting that the school/college tag will ensure them a sale.

Thanks for the Boxford link too Bob. Transformations indeed.

What is your view on the Boxford 5" x 22" for sale by gandmtools in ME issue 4488, vol 213?

David, I have a confession to make:
In my ignorance, some time ago, I did exactly as several of you have warned me not to.
I bought, what I thought was a nice little machine, from a gentleman on the south coast. I think he spotted me coming. I got it home and discovered it to be an ML1 Myford, circa 1948, with lots of slop in everything which had the capability to slop. Back gears which didn't and couldn't work because there was no facility to enable them to. So they were removed. A 3 jaw chuck on a backplate, which was even more eccentric than me. The following day I went to the far reaches of eastern Kent to pick up an ML4 stand, with counterbalanced motor. Over the following week I managed, by trial and error to remove all of the slop & end float out of every component and assembly. And I have subsequently learned the art of sharpening and setting up tooling so that I can now turn, what for me are, creditable pieces of work – to a reasonable degree of beginners accuracy.

Given that the whole rig cost me less than £300 including fuel costs to collect, and I have had some great fun and frustration learning the rudiments of metal lathe turning, I don't consider the exercise or the expenditure to be a great waste.
The primary problem now, is that the ML1 has a very narrow speed band. I would estimate 300-1300RPM.
I've looked at fitting a second larger drive pulley with a different belt, which will reduce the min. speed by 43%, but have come to the conclusion that I will, in the long term, be better employed investing in a suitable machine and bringing what I've learned to it. My concern with this one is that I will acquire the practice of 'make-do-and-mend' and subsequently pick up all manner of bad habits.

I'll probably keep the Myford for now and see if I can modify it to enable the backgears to work, in the future.

That's it. It's all out in the open now. No more sins to declare. [not lathe related anyway]

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

"What is your view on the Boxford 5" x 22" for sale by gandmtools"

That is a similar machine to mine with some minor differences, as to it's condition unless one can inspect it impossible to say.

Serial numbers give the a clue to the age not very clear jpg but should give you an idea if you ask for serial number.

Do not dismiss 3 phase machines as these are easy to run off a converter which converts the single phase supply to three phase, costs vary but £250.00 should cover it.

 

Bob

 

 

Edited By Bob Brown 1 on 05/07/2014 17:44:02

[Jack Foreman 1Participant @jackforeman1]

Thank you Bob. I'll save this for reference.
There are quite a number of 3 phase machines out there – which I confess to having, so far, largely disregarded.
I'll amend my approach.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I run my three phase mill through a Siemens Micromaster of a standard 13amp plug, works fine and has the benefit of allowing the speed to be altered by pressing the up or down buttons on the Siemens unit.

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Knowing what I now know about inverters and three phase, I would not have a single phase machine. And if I did I would convert it to three phase.

graham.

(Seriously considering going down the same route as Neil did with his Seig)

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Sometimes machines that look very rusty in a photo are just covered in oily grime and very good underneath, but equally some dealers get a load of machines in an auction and dump them in a barn for a few months with no attention. The rust film developes but under the saddle you see what it was like when they got it. Also can happen with guys who got too old to go out to the shed or the family left it a year before bringing themselves to dispose of grandpa's kit.

If buying from a dealer remember thy have had to add profit and VAT so you will be hard pressed to ever get that back on resale. Advantage is you can look the machine over unlike ebay.

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

As to your Ml1 experience well I think we've all done it at some time I know I have. The chances are that when you come to sell it you won't lose too much money and the education is well worth that.

One thing in the (reputable [a rare beast]) dealers favour is that they can spot the junk a mile away so won,t be selling it. Also in order to command top price they will fix any issues. While they are indeed adding profit and VAT they may be offsetting this by being able to buy at a lower rate than you could, for instance buying an entire workshop and splitting it.

Interestingly a few dealers I have spoken to have separate Ebay accounts for the dross. so when they buy a collection of machines the shiny super 7 goes on their website and the knackered zyto on Ebay.

As to the Boxford I couldn't see it on G&Ms website so it may be sold. You have to remember that they will have had to get that advert ready to publish some weeks before the mag comes out. It is worth adding the usual suspects G&M, home and workshop, quillstar, Lathes.co.uk and of course homeworkshop.org to your favourites on your browser.

Keep looking.

David

[Jack Foreman 1Participant @jackforeman1]

Thanks for your kind and wise words David.
For me, the redeeming feature is that I am in no rush and under no pressure whatsoever
I do, however want to be sure that this forthcoming purchase is a good one.

Jack

[Jack Foreman 1Participant @jackforeman1]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 05/07/2014 18:36:30:

I run my three phase mill through a Siemens Micromaster of a standard 13amp plug, works fine and has the benefit of allowing the speed to be altered by pressing the up or down buttons on the Siemens unit.

Bob / Graham.

Would a Colchester Bantam 2000 3phase machine run off an invertor which would run on a domestic circuit?
Or indeed, any other 3 phase powered machine of similar capacity?

Jack

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Assuming the motor is a dual voltage motor it is reasonably easy, the motor needs to be dual voltage so that it can be wired in delta rather than series. It should be just a case of changing the links in the motor and the motor plate should give the game away.

The plate above shows Volts 254-277 delta and 440-480 star.

The only other restriction is size but you should be ok up to 10hp off single phase.

All is not lost even if the motor is not dual voltage as they are not that expensive to change and even conversion to single phase is possible.

Bob

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