What am I?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 25/11/2020 10:07:25:

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Calling the man who empties a septic tank a 'Sanitation Engineer' is a good example.

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Perhaps ‘Sanitation Executive’ would be appropriate

MichaelG.

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Ref. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/executive

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/11/2020 10:37:27

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The term 'Engineer' always needs qualification. First, what sort of engineer, second how well qualified.

A Chemical Engineer does not have the same skills as Mechanical, Electrical, Software, Process, Electronic, Radio, Mining, Civil, Structural or any of the other multitude of engineering specialisations.

To me, capital 'E' Engineering requires solid understanding of both theory and practice. Understanding practical engineering isn't about having the skills yourself, it's knowing that machines can be built to do the job, or men trained to do it. As training is easier than understanding, someone is far more likely to be a capital 'E' engineer if they have qualifications! Little 'e' engineering to me is producing results from other peoples designs. Big 'E' engineering is design work.

Unfortunately 'engineer' is a title with across the board status issues. Most off-putting for University qualified Engineers to discover their employer has them in the same camp as the chap who goes round changing light-bulbs. In the corporate pecking order, Engineers sit well below Managers, Accountants, Salesmen and non-executive board members. Having a degree, and/or a successful track record generally lifts one a little above "Artisans" and "Workers", but Engineers have to be something special to do better than that! This is why qualified engineers are keen to distance themselves from Artisans.

Grossly unfair because organisations need all the skills necessary to deliver. They need skilled people to perform efficiently on the shop-floor, and efficient administrators, and efficient managers, and efficient engineers driving innovation, and efficient salesmen, and efficient accountants, and an effective board, and owners making sensible investment decisions. No-one understands everything – it's a team game, and a bad mistake to undervalue any of the players.

We live in an imperfect world. Plenty of people describe themselves as 'engineers' when they don't know much, or their qualification is out-of-date or wrong for the job.

Recruiting the best people for technical work is downright difficult because learning on the job can be better experience than going to University. Highly qualified with no idea about how to apply theory is bad. So is highly skilled but no idea how to apply theory and innovate. Sandwich courses were an attempt to address the problem, but all too often youngsters keen to apply new ways would be frustrated at work by Old F*rts determined not to lose status by admitting change was necessary. Whitworth is best when you're too set in your ways to understand metric. Self-interest is not engineering!

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 25/11/2020 10:43:53

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

As I told one of my Managing Directors, I am probably the only person in the company who holds both a Management qualification and also an Engineering one as well, he left me alone after that!

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 25/11/2020 10:34:50:

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 25/11/2020 10:07:25:

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Calling the man who empties a septic tank a 'Sanitation Engineer' is a good example.

.

Perhaps ‘Sanitation Executive’ would be appropriate

MichaelG.

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Ref. **LINK**

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/11/2020 10:37:27

Are they not dunnikin divers?

Membership of an engineering institute confers some argument to call yourself an engineer (in fact all it does is allow you to state that you are a member of the institute and add CEng as permitted by their charter, membership of a Model Club or SMEE or even this website would make you a Model Engineer.

It's all a bit academic really. Over 50% of our Lab members are PHD's but no-ne is routinely called doctor so and so in fact the further up you go the less formality there is. Professor Max Ferdinand Perutz OM CH CBE FRS was and is known just as Max. The real test of what you are is what you have done. Qualifications will not get you membership of the Royal Society it has to be earned through recognition of acheivement and by peer review. I think this is something that the engineering institutions could learn from.

regards Martin

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

SOD made some very good points…

We had a young electronics graduate start with us a couple of years ago, and didn't know that IC's had to be inserted the right way round, and had never heard of NPN and PNP…said he spent most of the time designing circuits and testing them on computers at uni.

I left skool with nothing, did an apprenticeship and ended up eventually with an HNC/HND mechanical and then HNC electronics years ago, i think the old HNC's had more engineering/technical content than an engineering degree has these days….. some of my mech HNC circa 1983 is still relevant today but much of it isn't.

I eventually was able to register as an IEng but purely to prove to myself that I wasn't thick. I don't care what other people call me !! (insert suitable word here)

A very good friend of mine, ex Navy 20 years, said to me "a guy who has got a degree can work out the square root of a glass of pickles but cannot take the lid off"…..made me laugh at the time, but does the degree qualified person "need" to take the lid off when there is someone who is more qualified than him/her to do that?

This sort of discussion has been going on for years and will continue as the job title "engineer" is not protected i.e. anyone can call themselves and advertise themselves, as engineers…..

Shame really as say the word engineer to a skool leaver looking for a career suggests that its a job with an adjustable spanner and an oily rag……Engineering opens up a huge world of opportunities and job satisfaction. I have spent the last 25 years travelling the world running training courses for my company – never in a million years did I think I would end up do this when I left skool with a grade 5 CSE in French….

Regards to all

Derek

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Not just today Derek, Luckily, sixty years ago, I ignored the comments of the overall clad teenagers on the top deck of a smoke filled bus decrying engineering. I had a super time (mostly) despite being a PROPER apprentice with wages to match.

Regards Ian.

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by mechman48 on 24/11/2020 23:12:59:

… back in my youth all [nurses] needed to be was SEN & SRN.

I married an SRN. It was the 15 foot rubber skirt that attracted me.

My father achieved high engineering office and Fellowship of the IEE with an HNC and a couple of endorsements. During my time, those running the IEE pulled the ladder up behind them so that eventually you couldn't get in with less than an honours degree, an interview and a written dissertation. I never bothered.

I agree with everything that has been said in this thread. Everything. It's a complicated issue, and we're no nearer to an answer than we ever were.

George B.

[Paul LParticipant @paull58212]

If you can engineer a solution to a problem, then you are an engineer.

[JAParticipant @ja]

When I started my apprenticeship in the mid 1960s the engineering institutions were vigorously trying to defend the definition of engineer. I now think they have given up. In English the definition is so wide that no one has a clue what it means and have not done so for 200 years. A possible ancester of mine was an engineer at a small cloth mill in Calne. According to the 1841 census he was an engineer: He looked after the steam engine and made minor running repairs to it and the looms. That is a wider scope of work than that of a railway locomotive engineer (a title that was used in this country and the States).

I think there are better job titles that can be used such as technician, technologist and specialist. Which one would apply to a model engineer? Perhaps even model manager.

Throughout my working life, as a mechanical engineer, all the work was interesting and the pay was generally sensible. Perhaps I could have got more money as a supermarket manager as one department head used to remind us when we were rebellious.

JA

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

To be a member of a Chartered Engineering Institute, a degree is needed.

Many years ago,someone with a HNC or HND could, by two years further study for further endorsements, become one; but then things changed.

The chances are that the HNC / HND person will have had more practical experience than the one with a degree, but not in every case.

To spend a gap year in our Quality Engineering Department, an undergraduate had prove that they had real engineering interest and ability.

I can recall only three who were less than good. The others soon became capable of working almost without supervision, and after graduation, went on to better things,both within the company, it's parent, and elsewhere.

But they had had to mix their theoretical studies with practical experience, on the shop floor.

As one of my Chartered Engineer supervisors (Well known in Model Engineering circles ) once said "They need a bit of dirt under their fingernails"

Its no good being so heavenly minded as to be no earthly use.

Howard

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

"An engineer is someone who can make for five bob what any bloody fool can make for a quid."

Not a bad definition, really. It appears in Neville Shute's Trustee from the Toolroom. With regard to University education, we had a chap who spent a short period of time with us in the Engineering Office. He had a Masters Degree in Engineering from, I think, Huddersfield University. He didn't have a clue. He claimed to be competent in SolidWorks, but he was absolutely useless. He didn't even know what a countersunk screw was. We were glad to throw him out after a week of his supposedly fortnight's work experience.

So University education sometimes means very little.

Possibly the best qualification you can get is CDTE. Competent Due To Experience.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Insert what you think you are in place of 'man' in Rudyard Kipling's ' If''.

Answer that truthfully and that's what you are.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I am with Nigel Bennett, we had a Grdauate who spent most of his time telling us how hard he had worked for his Degree and that he did not intend to work that hard again, he did not last long, staff members and management saw to that.

On another occasion whilst visiting a well known national establishment, I was told that they had many engineers who started with them, who could design many things but none of them capable of being made!

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

I am with KWILL on this we used a local university engineering department and their final year students to design a piece of plastic extrusion downstream handling equipment as a project for them and we would pay for it to be built.

The build was started by a local engineering company that was our go to supply for this type of project. It proved to be very difficult to build even after checking by by the head of department. The project was abandoned as not viable to make as it needed a total redesign.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Nigel Bennett on 25/11/2020 14:08:54:

"An engineer is someone who can make for five bob what any bloody fool can make for a quid."

…

I think it's a very limited definition. An engineer is someone who can make for whatever sum what any bloody fool couldn't make for any sum.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

In the USA, a train driver is an engineer.

I was an electroplater (metal finishing technician), an instrument mechanic, a fitter, but never an engineer. Now I'm an OAP, with a bus pass to prove it.

Edited By old mart on 25/11/2020 17:57:18

Edited By old mart on 25/11/2020 17:58:41

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Going alone to start a new business in ’85, I had it ‘declared officially’ from none other than the Australian Taxation Office that I would be listed as a Consulting Engineer.

It was unfortunate however, that it reminded me of a couple of quotes from Victor Kiam’s book …

Going for It!: How to Succeed As an Entrepreneur

His catchphrase was … "I liked the [Remington] shaver so much, I bought the company"

However, I have occasionally pondered another of his quotes that …

… consultants are like castrated bulls.

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

I think it depends on which country you come from and tradition of branch of engineering subject.

The OP mentioned he worked in aviation, some countries will call Cat A personnel as technicians, others will call them mechanics. Cat B are called certifying staff or support staff by some countries while others will call them engineers. It's tradition, in Malta where I come from, I'm an aircraft engineer, that's what our company and similar companies in this field refer to us. But a university graduated engineer will not take kindly me calling myself an engineer without having a degree!

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Our department (control engineering) was on the circuit for our student apprentices, we saw quite a few and they ranged from outstanding to useless, it was rewarding to show some of the know it all ones that they didn’t and change their minds, I wonder if collecting a few A levels and winning a place at university makes some youngsters think they are clever and cleverer than everyone else. The best people I ever worked with were more than willing to share anything they knew if you were interested in learning it and I hope the apprentices who came past me found me to the same. Unfortunately I have also met plenty of the don’t share everything brigade, if I told you all I know today then hopefully I will have learned something new by tomorrow and you won’t know everything until you ask me again, knowledge should be shared freely.

Mike

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

We had an engineer who had done an engineering degree come down to our ship for a look around. His degree thesis was on boilers. Being shown around the ships engine room by one of the lads they eventually came to this huge lump in the engine room. Whats that the degree chap asked. Thats our boiler came the reply.

The first third engineer I sailed with didn't have any qualifications and probably he never did achieve any – he was not that sort of person, but he was the best practical engineer I ever sailed with.

Chris

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

The company my wife works for had many people in the office with the credit of "Engineer" on their business cards.

ie sales engineer, technical engineer, process engineer etc. They had many skilled workers in the company but all came up through the ranks and learned the trade by experience, apprenticeships and the odd course here and there apart from the accountant who had a degree. For some reason I do not remember they had a dispute with a customer and had to assign a "proper engineer" to represent them on some aspect of a problem. It turns out that my wife was the only person in the company with a MEng(hons) in mechanical engineering and had the requisite qualifications to be able to satisfy some legal requirement.

They had to get all the cards reprinted except my wife's.

regards

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Martin Kyle and Howard Lewis made a couple of opposing comments about Chartered Engineers but neither are correct. I’m talking UK here just to be clear.
Martin said “Membership of an engineering institute confers some argument to call yourself an engineer (in fact all it does is allow you to state that you are a member of the institute and add CEng as permitted by their charter,….”Being member of an institute is not enough. The institute must be licensed by the Engineering Council to asses you. The standard is set by UK-SPEC not the institution.

Howard said “To be a member of a Chartered Engineering Institute, a degree is needed.
Many years ago, someone with a HNC or HND could, by two years further study for further endorsements, become one; but then things changed.”
Again not true. To quote from the EC website “The CEng title is open to anyone who can demonstrate the required professional competences and commitment, as set out in the professional standard”. Nothing in there about qualifications, just competence and commitment.

Unfortunately a degree does not assure a level of competence, just knowledge (or for the real cynic he ability to pass an exam), but it’s not meant to.

One of the problems is that in the UK there are very few tasks that legally can only be carried out by a Professional Engineer (covers CEng and others). This assumes that the law set out the acceptable qualification. In many other countries you need to be a PE to do certain tasks.
A term that is becoming more common is SQEP “Suitably Qualified and Experienced Person” (note qualified does not solely mean academic). The MOD are getting hot on this after a few incidents were seniority was mistaken for competence. This is not just in engineering by the way. Being a PE is a big plus when showing SQEP.

As you may have guessed I consider myself an Engineer. The first formal recognition of this was the issue of an aircraft engineers licence (by the CAA back when authority to sign off an aircraft was vested in the Engineer, not the organisation the way it is now under EASA). Since then I have also attained CEng status and am a Fellow of my professional society. I do not have a degree or even an A level but can sign off a design as meeting CAA, EASA, MOD or FAA (and a few other) requirements. SWMBO has several degrees and a doctorate and earns a lot less than I do.
Fortunately my employer has recognised some time ago the good engineers were becoming poor managers because it was the only perceived means of progressing. They now have dual management and “specialist” tracks with positions for each at all levels up to and including executive / board level. I’m two levels from the top, and still do >95% engineering.

Robert G8RPI.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

The department I worked in usually had an engineering student stay with us for a year for their year in industry before the final year of their course. We had about five or six to interview to pick one. What we did was like a formal job interview then when that was over we went for a drink at the vending machines to relax them and just chat. We always steered the chat towards hobbies and motor vehicles or childhood toys. We always went for someone who liked tearing down and rebuilding motors or played with meccano or similar as they suited the work we were involved with. As previously mentioned dirt under the fingernails was a good thing to have.

One of the oddities that always amused us was that despite the fact that in the latter years they all had mobile phones one of the first hurdles they had was they felt uncomfortable using the phone to contact companies or people they had had no dealings with before.

Martin C

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Robert said

"Martin Kyle and Howard Lewis made a couple of opposing comments about Chartered Engineers but neither are correct. I’m talking UK here just to be clear.
Martin said “Membership of an engineering institute confers some argument to call yourself an engineer (in fact all it does is allow you to state that you are a member of the institute and add CEng as permitted by their charter,….”Being member of an institute is not enough. The institute must be licensed by the Engineering Council to asses you. The standard is set by UK-SPEC not the institution. "

Firstly my name is Kyte not Kyle and what I said is correct. All the individual has to do is be a member of the said institute. It's the institutes responsibility to maintain their licence. as I said, full membership allows the use of MIEE (or whatever) and CEng. I also stated that I qualified for membership of the IEE through the HND CEI Part 2 route, the CEI being the council of the engineering institutes body which is the UK-SPEC standard Robert was talking about.

I don't mind you making additional comments but don't say I'm wrong when you then go on to say the same thing thankyou.

regards Martin

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