Using a pillar drill for milling?

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

And.thank you again Nigel. Well that was a great explanation as I pretty much understood what you were saying, which is something as the sprung Centre was completely unknown as a concept to me….and it sounds and looks great. A quick internet search and I found pictures to illustrate what you describe & eBay showed how relatively cheap they can cost.

Whist being a novice at metal lathe work I do have a fair assortment of mainly BA taps used in my work making and restoring lighting. Very few though have either a point or dimple in the tap holder end. Most are carbon steel, though I'm now investing in HSS ones as I forsee me wanting to use them in steel. Do you think I'd be able to drill the ends of the flat /plain ended carbon taps to accommodate the sprung Centre idea? (or would they be too hard?)

That said the sensitive drill aspect of one of tools/machines seems like it would be necessary for small drills? My Startrite pillar drill is fine enough for the big stuff but would I feel be pretty clumsy for small drills say under 1/8"?

Regarding the change wheels yes I'm sure its an incomplete set. At this stage I'm not too worried about that, if I ever become proficient enough to be able to tackle screw cutting on the lathe rather than taps & dies i figure I'll want to upgrade the whole lathe.

Apart from screw cutting I will only need change wheels to drive the tool post carriage along, different combinations will give different speeds of feed right?

I'm still trying to get my head round pulley ratios along with the back gears, so screw cutting seems a long way off right now! (-:

Cheers

Chris.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Chris, coming in late, much of what you need to know has been said. Re Reference Books, as well as Sparey's "The Amateur's lathe" which is heavily Myford 7 Series oriented but very informative none the less. Additionally, Ian Bradley's "The Amateur's Workshop" is worth having.

This Forum is an treasure trove of help, advice.and information.

Tubal Cain's "Model Engineers Handbook" is an absolute mine of information..

When you progress and become more ambitious, ones from the Workshop Practice series are extremely useful for specific items or projects..

(As an aside, Ivan Law's "Gears and Gear Cutting" gets looked at fairly regularly, even when i am nit looking to cut a gear )

No.12, "Drills taps and Dies" and No.3 "Screwcuttinf in the Lathe", should be near the top of your shopping list, and later to be closely followed by Brian Wood's "Gearing of Lathes for Screwcutting".

The more that you do, will bring you experience, and confidence. Even your mistakes will teach you. Hopefully they will not be calamitous or costly.

if possible, find a Model Engineering club near you and join. Again, you will learn from other members, and some may well provide hands on advice and help.

Howard

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Afraid not ! This idea/subject has been covered many ,many times on this forum and the answer is always the same it,s a no go ! The cutter will come adrift ,maybe taking the chuck with it. This seldom improves the finish on the job ,apart from doing damage to both the cutter and maybe the machine.

How do I know all this ? Simple, in a past life, when I "knew it all" I tried something similar [I did not have a milling machine at the time ]. The results were "interesting" to put it mildly. So much so that I never repeated it.

Hold fire until you can afford a mill, such ideas are all part of the learning curve, and I,m still learning.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

There's also a point I don't think anyone else has mentioned, and that is how you would move the work-piece in a straight line in a controlled manner on a drilling-machine! Without that, the cutter could snatch the work with all sorts of nasty outcomes possible.

A co-ordinate vice may seem the answer, but it is not. Many are quite lightly made, solely for locating the work for drilling holes within quite small limited rectangles; they are not for traversing work against a cutter.

'

I have, once and very carefully, committed the cardinal sin though. I had to drill a lot of simple holes on concentric pitch-circles, on a pair of turned discs. So far so good but two had to be joined into an arcuate slot perhaps 15º "round" X 1/2 inch wide, about 3-1/2" radius

However the material was soft PVC 3mm sheet, sandwiched via spacers on a 6" dia rotary table clamped rigidly to the drilling-machine, and slotted by very shallow cuts and gentle feed.

I would not try it in metal, and certainly not by habit. I ought really have chain-drilled and filed the slots as they are simply the rope anchorages in the side-cheeks of a purely-functional winch-drum.

Why not on the milling-machine? I'd not yet put it into service so was limited to the lathe and bench-drill.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Which Model of Startrite Mercury do you have? Does it have more than 5 speeds?

If yours has a knurled collar above the chuck, then the chuck is quick change type, and using your lathe, you could make a secure milling head, say er16 collet type. If the bearings are in good condition (no detectable radial play), then the machine should be capable of managing up to 10mm cutters.

Edited By old mart on 25/06/2019 16:19:32

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Many thanks Howard, I shall look out some of those books and keep some of your suggestions on file for when I progress.

Yes I could not agree more, I've learnt so much for the forum and I only signed up on Saturday, thank you all.

Thank you Larry, yes I shall certainly heed the advice and wait till I get a proper milling machine. I rather like the look of the Fobco Universal and Dore Wesbury's.

Thanks Nigel G2, yes indeed I did think a coordinate vice (that's like a compound slide type right?) would do the trick,…. the more I learn the more I realise I do not know!

Old Mart, I had to go check how many speeds it has…oops! (-:

It has 5 speeds and two knurled collars with holes for tommy bars, does that sound like it qualifies as a quick change? I think the bearings are good. I've seen it written lower the chuck as far as it goes and check for side to side movement. As far as my eye can tell and feel there is no movement. Am I missing something, perhaps it occurs to me now I should put say a Centre drill in the chuck and a cross hair mark on some secured scrap, and then wiggle it, I guess that would be a more accurate test…?.

I would assume for me to make a milling head I'd need to be able to screw cut on my lathe? Gosh that seems a LONG way off right now, I'll have to learn the basics first, interesting though….

Ah now you mention 'say 10mm cutters', I have been wondering what a rule of thumb definition of 'light' milling might be?

Cheers all,

Chris.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Google "lathes UK" site, find Startrite in the drilling machines column and look in Mercury page 2.

The 5 speed drills with the 2 knurled collars above the chuck are probably what you have. Two C spanners are required, hold the top collar and screw down the lower one against the chuck. Look up inside the chuck, there might be a screw head visible. If there is a screw, it must be unscrewed, most likely a right hand thread. The chuck should eventually drop off, so have a soft pad to catch it.

To refit the chuck, make sure the male and female tapers are clean, and screw the lower knurled collar back up to the top one. Retract the chuck jaws below the body, hold in position and give it a sharp rap with a copper faced mallet. Or use something soft like aluminium to cushion the blow from an ordinary hammer (1lb hammer would do). Refit the screw if there is one.

There are several illustrations of a Morse taper adaptor which screws in place of the regular chuck. When you have more experience of producing threads and taper turning, it would be easy to adapt an er16 collet chuck to fit the drill. 10mm cutters would be the largest size I would contemplate using with your drill.

Edited By old mart on 25/06/2019 18:32:14

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thanks for that Old Mart, I just followed that up, and now I know much more than I did about my drill too. Having bought an ER20 collet set which has a draw bore thread in the 1MT arbour it would be great to be able to fit that, if I understand the text correctly my drill should have a 1MT to match. Of course the drills bearings might not like it much and the compound vice would have to be obtained but worth considering.

When I bought the collet set I was only concerned it would fit my lathe, the 20 part of the ER20 meant nowt to me and still dosent. you mention ER16, the the numbers presumably refer in some way to the size of some aspect?

Thanks again,

Cheers

Chris.

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Ah maybe you suggest restricting the cutter size to 10mm to protect the drills bearings……

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

May I ask why you want an ER chuck on a drilling-machine? To hold a milling-cutter?

Also, though I don't know your particular example, most drilling-machine spindles do not have through-holes so you can't use a draw-bar in them; but many have MT spindles with an internal slot to drive a drill tang.

Everyone's been advising you NOT to use a drilling-machine as a milling-machine, even below 10mm dia cutters. It is NOT made for it, and would a recipe for disaster. The only thing you can use a milling-cutter for in a drill, is to complete a counter-bore first partially drilled to that diameter .

Neither is a co-ordinate- or cross- vice a substitute milling-machine table. Nor is it like a lathe cross-slide, which is designed to take the sideways loads in turning. It is a small drill-vice on top of a slide mounted in turn on another, used solely to move the work-piece between drilling each hole; and taking downwards pressure only. Many of them are very lightly made and of very limited travel anyway. Note what I wrote above: it "… may seem the answer but it is not…" (for milling).

To convert a drilling-machine to a basic mill is possible but only with a lot of precision-engineering, not least including a heavy-duty radial bearing located accurately on an arm fitted to the column to take all the side-loads off the spindle and its bearings. Then you would need a co-ordinate table capable of absorbing milling-type loads.

I admit I got away with a cutting a short arc slot in a bit of plastic sheet, but a rotary-table IS a milling-machine accessory, and I was taking only very light cuts in a very soft material. I also said it was a quick solution to an immediate problem, and I do NOT make a habit of it.

You could build a basic milling-machine, but it's a lot of work. To add to what Larry Phelan said, you are better buying a new or decent second-hand one as large as you can afford by both room and money.

Don't go for the round-colum types though because you have to re-set the centre alignment every time you move the head up and down the column, sometimes several times in making the same part. As I found out! Fortunately there are now available even quite modest milling-machines with dovetail columns, and many people seem to find them very satisfactory.

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thank you Nigel, understood! (-:

I much appreciate this.

Cheers

Chris.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

How times change, Mr J.G. Churchill in Model Engineer 15th may 1981 number 3657on pages 624 and 625 has cut the gears on the Modular traction engine using a home made single point cutter mounted in a B&D drill

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The ER20 collets,will hold upto 13 mm diameter tools ( drills, End Mills, slot drills ) but I would advise against using milling cutters in a pillar drill.

Extended Range collets are useful, in that they can cover a range of 1 mm, and are so marked. Consequently, they can hold Imperial as well as Metric cutters, within that range.

As an aside, it seems that the 1.5 mm pitch thread of the closing nut takes its size from the next size up, i e. ER 20 would have a 25 x 1.5 thread.

It has been said many times that the bearings in a drill are unlikley to have been designed for anything other than axial loads. Trying to use a pillar drill as a mill is likely to damage the machine, and probably the cutter and the workpiece, possibly even you as a guilty by stander!

You can mill in the lathe, but it is not as rigid, nor have as big a range as a proper milling machine. Although, for a very limited range of work, a Vertical Slide can be useful.

If you want to mill, save up and buy a mill, not a co ordinate table.

HTH

Howard

I have an elderly round column mill/drill, and having to realign the head every tome that it is raised or lowered is a right PITA. A dovetail column machine would save me the trouble having to use a laser to align things, but I don't know of one with Imperial leadscrews and dials.

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thank you Howard, yes I will save up for one….I have no desire to damage my drill or me! There is so much to consider with it all, and of course you can only consider it if you are aware of it! (-: I guess some will become clear in time.

I understand about the round columns i find it similarly frustrating with the pillar drills round column.

Thinking of space(lack of) I suspect for reasons I don't yet know a milling machine dosen't make a good drilling machine either? Perhaps they don't take Jacobs type chucks….

Cheers

Chris.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

" Thinking of space(lack of) I suspect for reasons I don't yet know a milling machine dosen't make a good drilling machine either? Perhaps they don't take Jacobs type chucks…. "

Ah, now, you CAN use a milling-machine as a precision drilling-machine; co-ordinates and all.

'

In fact a typical milling task may involve drilling and tapping several holes as well as squaring the outline to shape and size, cutting slots etc., all in one piece of metal.

No, they don't take Jacobs chucks directly in the spindle. Instead, the chuck fits onto a special adaptor with the Jacobs nose and an appropriate taper shank with internal draw-bar thread to fit the spindle; and it stays on the adaptor. You remove the adaptor from the mill, not drill-chuck from adaptor.

Just make sure you don't spoil the machine by drilling too deep and into the table!

'

Milling-machines generally don't have a chuck as such, like a drilling-machine. Instead the cutters, drill-chucks etc are held by interchangeable tooling that fits into one of various standard types of spindle taper. The two standards you and I are most likely to encounter are:

Morse (MT3 being perhaps the most common for model-engineering milling-machines).

R8. This was the standard on Bridgeport milling-machines once very common in the engineering trade, and on the Myford VMC mill. (The one I have)

You might encounter ISO – number; the modern industrial standard particularly suited to high-performance CNC machines. I don't know if any of the model-engineering trade machines use them: some of the larger, latest might.

New and second-hand Morse and R8 tooling is quite easy to find. The advantage of R8 is that the taper is steeper than Morse, so much less likely to jam in the spindle; but Morse tapers means some tooling is interchangeable with other machines, like most small lathes.

'

You can also add to milling-machines, accessories like vices designed for that task, rotary tables for cutting arcs and drilling accurately-spaced rings of holes, and angle-plates which at their simplest hold a work-piece on its side.

On-line catalogues like those of Arc Eurotrade have photos of milling- (and other) machine tooling, as examples.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The one advantage of a pillar drill, that Nigel perhaps omitted, was that of height available between drill bit and table. Floor standing options will accept seriously large sized items, while bench mounted ones are ‘similar’ to most hobby milling machines.

My larger mill has a spindle nose to table distance of around 425mm (rather less if a Jacobs chuck is fitted), but that figure has been increased (from standard) by adding a 120mm riser block to my machine (check out the current ‘Centec’ thread). My smaller mill only has 213mm head space, so often needs an alternative holder to a jacobs chuck, may need to use an alternative to using a milling vise for workpiece holding – as well as choosing a stubby drill bit! ‘Horses for courses’ is the order of the day.

Edited to add that if I don’t have enough head space, other alternatives are a hand-held drill (perhaps on a drill stand) or a heavy duty drill with magnetic base

Edited By not done it yet on 26/06/2019 06:59:58

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I never thought that one could cut gears with a B&D drill !

Just goes to show what some of these old timers could do !

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Y4es,. we can only admire the quality many of them achieved with very basic equipment.

For decades they were doing well to have a treadle-driven Drummond lathe (which was quite a versatile machine), a hand-operated bench-drill and hand-operated grinder.

Early-20C Model Engineer & Electrician as it then was, is a treasure-trove of ingenuity – I've seen in one copy, even how to re-seat a kitchen tap before the days of tap re-seating tools. (On the lathe, of course.)

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Some pictures may help. These are of an ER32 collet chuck with an MT shank. ER32 is probably the most popular because of the range of collets it can hold 2-22mm.

The chuck plugs into the spindle:

And is clamped in position by a 'drawbar' – a long bolt, tightened at the top of the spindle. Nipped rather than tightened enthusiastically.

In this simple system, the collet chuck is released by slackening the drawbar a couple of turns and then tapping it with a soft faced hammer. (I use an ordinary hammer and a bit of Aluminium as a cushion.)

In bits:

Most of my milling is done with ER32 collets because they conveniently take drills, cutters and anything else with a parallel shank like my slitting saw set. My collets are metric which makes them a tad awkward to use with some imperial diameters (more tightening than I'm comfortable with), so I have a Jacobs drill chuck as well. When a lot of different sized holes are needed the Jacobs is worth having because it's quicker changing drills than a collet system.

When maximum space, rigidity &/or accuracy is wanted during cutting, it's advantageous to plug tools directly into the spindle rather than via a chuck. Fly cutting and boring are my main tasks where a chuck isn't suitable. Much depends on what you're doing, but I guess most hobbyists do most milling with ER collets.

Dave

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Oh this forum is like gold dust, thank you.

Nigel, ok I see a way forward then. move my Startrite drill into my woodworkshop so I have the height to drill holes in tall bits. Get a mill that dosen't have a round column and put in my engineering workshop, there isnt room on the bench (or otherwise)for both. Get the biggest mill I can, but I have max headroom off the bench (sloping roof) of 37.5"/ 950mm.

The above idea is I'm sure not ideal but it might be my best option….

Just to cover all bases, is a jig borer designed for milling? They look like they're built like tanks but maybe designed more for drilling?

So I had a look at Eurotrade, then looked up where Seig are made )-: I would MUCH rather buy British if I can.

I found Cowells which look great but no doubt you'd say too small for general model engineering?

I see Myfords made one also but expect that would bee too tall even if I could track one down.

Any suggestions of a mill made in the UK?

Many many thanks

Chris.

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Thank you not done it yet, yes I figured there would likely be a compromise somewhere along the line, appreciate you point out what it is. I'm thinking buy a mill in due course to replace the drill, but put the drill in my other workshop. Its not i'm sure ideal but at least then I'd have the height available to drill holes at least.

Out of interest what make of mills do you have? In due course I'd much rather buy British if I can, even if it has to be second hand….

Cheers

Chris.

[Chris VParticipant @chrisv]

Hi Silly Old Duffer and thank you. I just looked online and at least I dont think I made a mistake buying the ER20 collet set, I dont think the ER32's are available on a 1MT, that would fit my lathe. Actually I have a Tyme Cub woodworking lathe also that they fit, I do my freehand brass turning on this, and cutting threads using taps & dies. But now at least I know a little more of the various types and can take that into consideration when considering Mills.

Cheers

Chris.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Chris Vickers on 26/06/2019 14:22:20:

So I had a look at Eurotrade, then looked up where Seig are made )-: I would MUCH rather buy British if I can.

I found Cowells which look great but no doubt you'd say too small for general model engineering?

I see Myfords made one also but expect that would bee too tall even if I could track one down.

Don't buy a Myford VMB then – they were made in Taiwan.

Neil

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Chris Vickers on 26/06/2019 14:34:57:

…

Out of interest what make of mills do you have? In due course I'd much rather buy British if I can, even if it has to be second hand….

Cheers

Chris.

Offhand I can't think of a British made manual mill in current production apart from the Cowells, which would be too small for me. Second-hand there's more choice, but they tend to be big – sold to users with more space and money than the average Joe. Adcock and Shipley made a clone of the popular USA Bridgeport, which is a shade too big for the space I have (single garage). Have a look at the excellent lathes.co.uk. I think you'll find there's not much going smaller than a Bridgeport. (I expect someone knows better!)

Over the past 30 years Industry & Education have largely walked away from manual lathes and mills in favour of CNC. New British made machine tools are pretty much way too expensive for amateurs; high-end stuff, not aimed at men in sheds! Quite a lot of good second-hand about but be careful: condition is everything. Spares can be hard to find and/or amazing expensive.

You mentioned Jig Borers in an earlier post. These are a type of smallish milling machine made specially to deliver high-accuracy for tool-making. Very desirable if you can find one in good nick, but likely to be costly. Also, a clapped out jig-borer is clapped out!

To get started I bought Chinese; much more choice.

Dave

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Author]

Posts