Swiss Tec – Definitive information please!

[Graeme KingParticipant @graemeking88577]

First – thanks so much to all who responded and for the many suggestions. I am very grateful for all of the input. If I / we can ever reciprocate (there must be some cyclists here …) please don't hesitate to shout!

To give a fuller picture:
We have a Harrison which is OK but a bit long in the tooth and starting to show it with a wee-est bit of play in the saddle – not so that you feel it, but when turning small parts that need light interference fit, you have to remember to compensate for it and there's a bit of "seat of the pants" involved that I'd prefer wasn't required.

We also have a specially adapted Myford that we use for tube mitre-cutting (we build frames, too) which can be swapped back to take conventional tooling (it's only a matter of jiggery-pokery, removing our special custom-made tool post and remounting the original) but it's a pain in the backside to do because it means re-mounting the tube holding post – and we use the machine about 100 times more for tube cutting than we'd ever use it for anything else. Both are more or less 36" between centres (TBH I can't recall the exact specs and it's not that important anyway).

The requirement is for something much smaller – so we are looking at something 250 – 300 mm between centres (nothing like mixing your units but we do that all the time in the cycle trade).

We are looking at a small machine capable of reasonably accurate (tolerances +/- 0.05 or maybe even 0.025 mm at a push) work, compact (because we have a space issue) single phase (because it's easier for us at present), with only a very light use programme – it's one of those purchases where we don't need it all that often but when we do, it's what we need.

I'd almost settled on the Proxxon PD250 as fulfilling all of what we need including place of manufacture when I stumbled over the Swisstec machines and specifically the ST180-300. Space wise we could just about accommodate the ST210-400.

And that's where we came in.

As I mentioned, I know that the Chinese are perfectly capable of making some very precise machinery and my wanting to keep my purchase in Europe has nothing to do with that consideration. I also know that I could probably spend time and money to correct any problems I might find in such a machine anyway … My preference for a European machine has everything to do with a philosophical stance that I want to keep manufacturing jobs in Europe wherever possible and I don't want a machine made in a juristiction that has the lack of employee protection regime that China is all-too-well-known for. Nor do I want the manufacture and shipping of my machine to be any more environmentally damaging than it has to be. Hence I am prepared to accept a less capable machine at the same price (looking at the relative prices / specs) or to pay a higher price for a similar spec machine to achieve those aims.

Without solid info on origin (which I now appear to have), I was a little stuck.

Having said that, I am going to follow up on a couple of the other suggestions made because like most Virgos, I am appallingly OCD and I do want to make sure I have examined every possibility before making a decision!

Edited By Graeme King on 25/11/2016 17:39:14

[Graeme KingParticipant @graemeking88577]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/11/2016 15:36:33:

Hello Graeme,

I suggest you contact Pro Machine tools (a Swisstec distributor) and ask.

Click the ad over here ——>

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 24/11/2016 15:36:46

Done. Equivocal answer (Grrrr!)

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

.

OK Lets get back to some normality here.

Graeme, what is your budget, (don't forget to include tooling) and what is the size of the components you require to manufacture / remachine.

Also by saying 'precision' that is fairly a lose terminology. Please give us some idea of the tolerances +/- and thus the required precision.

Nick

Edit :- While I was typing you posted and as such the above is now moot. 

It is my understanding that SwissTec have been a little lets say. …….. "Economical with the truth" in that by their very name they 'imply' they are of origin from a country famous / synonymous with the highest grade of equipment and standards. They ain't originally from the country they are implying.

They 'may' however be inspected and finished off in the land of (now smaller) Toblerone though. ………. Dunno.?

Nick 

Edited By Nick_G on 25/11/2016 17:49:41

[Graeme KingParticipant @graemeking88577]

Posted by JasonB on 25/11/2016 07:34:44:

I would have thought a watch makers lathe a bit small when you start machining things like bottom brackets, hubs, disc brakes, suspension parts etc

We use the Harrison for a lot of that stuff.

You'd be surprised at the accuracy needed when making things like pistons for hydraulic brake systems, bearing in mind the degree of minaturisation needed to make them light enough to be interesting to modern racing cyclist users and to cope with the temperature changes – at the top of a mountain it can be -10, but the fluid can hit 260C quite easily (BP of DOT 5) – there is only 30-40 ml tops of it in some systems … also what we do is most decidedly *not* standard!

[Graeme KingParticipant @graemeking88577]

Posted by Nick_G on 25/11/2016 17:41:53:

.

OK Lets get back to some normality here.

Graeme, what is your budget, (don't forget to include tooling) and what is the size of the components you require to manufacture / remachine.

Also by saying 'precision' that is fairly a lose terminology. Please give us some idea of the tolerances +/- and thus the required precision.

Nick

Possibly lost in the verbiage above:
tolerances +/- 0.05 or maybe even 0.025 mm at a push

Cost limit £1500-ish but if I could bring it in at less than £1250 it makes the numbers work better and the accountant will wince less ..
Tools not so much of a consideration. Anything outside of a capital purchase or what we'd consider "normal" tooling we'd usually tack onto the bill for the guys looking for the component / job …

Edited By Graeme King on 25/11/2016 17:54:41

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Graeme King on 25/11/2016 17:53:26:

Possibly lost in the verbiage above:
tolerances +/- 0.05 or maybe even 0.025 mm at a push

.

So we are talking a thou or two here. And over not over a very large length either are we.?

Virtually (IMHO) any lathe in reasonable condition that is properly set up with level, gibbs properly adjusted, correct tooling etc, etc. will do the job over a short length of such parts.

The purchase of a quality collet chuck and a DRO would assist you greatly in both accuracy and repeatability I should think.

For model engineers working to those tolerances you mention are classed as **normal

Nick

[Graeme KingParticipant @graemeking88577]

Posted by Nick_G on 25/11/2016 18:05:03:

Posted by Graeme King on 25/11/2016 17:53:26:

 

Possibly lost in the verbiage above:
tolerances +/- 0.05 or maybe even 0.025 mm at a push

 

.

So we are talking a thou or two here. And over not over a very large length either are we.?

Virtually (IMHO) any lathe in reasonable condition that is properly set up with level, gibbs properly adjusted, correct tooling etc, etc. will do the job over a short length of such parts.

The purchase of a quality collet chuck and a DRO would assist you greatly in both accuracy and repeatability I should think.

For model engineers working to those tolerances you mention are classed as **normal

Nick

Hi Nick, thanks for the above.
Yes, I'm aware that in other worlds, some of our tolerances are plain sloppy
On the other hand, you should see some of the tolerances that are regarded as "acceptable" by some bicycle component manufacturers …

Edited By Graeme King on 25/11/2016 18:10:05

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Graeme King on 25/11/2016 18:09:24:

On the other hand, you should see some of the tolerances that are regarded as "acceptable" by some bicycle component manufacturers …

 

26" wheels are 1.4mm undersize at 559mm for a start!

I think that the issue with proxxon lathes is their curious decision to graduate the handwheels in 0.05mm, as they are easily capable of working to closer tolerances than this. Of course you could simply fit decent handwheel dials.

You just won't find new European lathes comparable to the Chinese imports at reasonable prices.

 

That said, as you have found with the Harrison, operator skill is often more important than the machine. People have made IC engines (which need at least as much accuracy as brake cylinders) using lathes that by all rights ought to be turning out work as crooked as a dog's hind leg.

If you want British and new, but small will do (e.g. for brake cylinders) there's little doubt one of these will do all you ask:

http://www.cowells.com/90me.htm

Not cheap as small lathes go, at £2,572 for that version.

Neil

<edit + VAT, for the benefit of non-VAT registered forum members>

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 25/11/2016 18:57:05

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Graeme King on 25/11/2016 17:36:50:

…

I'd almost settled on the Proxxon PD250 as fulfilling all of what we need including place of manufacture when I stumbled over the Swisstec machines and specifically the ST180-300. Space wise we could just about accommodate the ST210-400.

…

Without solid info on origin (which I now appear to have), I was a little stuck.

…

Edited By Graeme King on 25/11/2016 17:39:14

Hi Graham,

If you do buy a Proxxon I'm sure many on the forum would appreciate your opinion of it after a bit of use. There doesn't seem to be much feedback on the web about Proxxon lathes – they're a bit of a mystery, at least to me.

As it is important to you, it may be worth confirming where the Proxxon lathe is actually manufactured. I can't see anything on the Proxxon website or in the Catalogue that identifies the country of origin. It's not unusual for Western firms to have their stuff made abroad…

Dave

[Graeme KingParticipant @graemeking88577]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 25/11/2016 18:55:40:

Posted by Graeme King on 25/11/2016 18:09:24:

On the other hand, you should see some of the tolerances that are regarded as "acceptable" by some bicycle component manufacturers …

26" wheels are 1.4mm undersize at 559mm for a start!

I think that the issue with proxxon lathes is their curious decision to graduate the handwheels in 0.05mm, as they are easily capable of working to closer tolerances than this. Of course you could simply fit decent handwheel dials.

You just won't find new European lathes comparable to the Chinese imports at reasonable prices.

That said, as you have found with the Harrison, operator skill is often more important than the machine. People have made IC engines (which need at least as much accuracy as brake cylinders) using lathes that by all rights ought to be turning out work as crooked as a dog's hind leg.

If you want British and new, but small will do (e.g. for brake cylinders) there's little doubt one of these will do all you ask:

http://www.cowells.com/90me.htm

Not cheap as small lathes go, at £2,572 for that version.

Neil

<edit + VAT, for the benefit of non-VAT registered forum members>

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 25/11/2016 18:57:05

Best not to start down the wheel & tyre sizing road – it's long, it's rocky, it's full of twists and turns, there's no signposting and it's easy to come (badly) a-cropper … and the "inch" sizes bear no relation *at all* to the actual physical size of anything! Example – 26" refers generically to wheels with Bead Seat Diameters anything from 559 up to 597 mm … The BSD itself is not well controlled for radial tolerance (because that is ultimately controlled by the wheel-builder) but in terms of the circumference at the base of the bead seat, it is reasonably tightly controlled.

Bicycle development has shuttlecocked since the mid-late 19th century across the English Channel and the Atlantic (the reason we have some LH threads in bicycles at all is courtesy of a patent lodged by the Wright Brothers who were amongst the first to recognise some problems associated with thread precession in bearing assembles) so we we end up with some craziness like a thread specification of 36 mm x 24 TPI … wheel spindles have lengths, ODs and threads specified in metric units and yet all of our ball-bearings are specced in fractions of an inch … we talk of a "1 inch" headset – and then promptly spec the frame dimensions and the cup specs to suit (the cups being interference fit) in metric units. Oh, and there are two different standards there, anyway – ISO and JIS and never the twain shall meet … And so it goes on.

Anyway, to come back to the subject in hand, thanks for the reference to the Cowells machine – the tool-buyer in me wants to say "yes" but the accountant in me says "dream on". I take your point about the European vs the Far Eastern machines where price is concerned. Like most manufacturing industries, the cycle industry has it's own crosses to bear in that department.

The key thing is that I seem to have the info I was looking for and I've contacted a different set of people with knowledge who are prepared to share it – and for that I am exceedingly grateful!

[Dave DanielsParticipant @davedaniels93256]

It appears that this Proxxon lathe originates from Luxembourg ..

**LINK**

Whether all Proxxon lathes do I don't know, that's the only reference I found. ( Just knew Farnell sold them & they give country of origin for products they sell ).

( Isn't Luxembourg where Junckers orginates ? Maybe not much of a recommendation then eh ?      )

 

D.

 

 

 

Edited By Dave Daniels on 25/11/2016 19:39:03

[mick70Participant @mick70]

i know some of parts i used to make bikes my clarke cl 430 was to big especially when making spokes and steering arm bushes for the tadpoles.

ended up doing it all on my ml6 as smaller and easier to use for some jobs.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dave Daniels on 25/11/2016 19:38:37:

It appears that this Proxxon lathe originates from Luxembourg ..

**LINK**

Whether all Proxxon lathes do I don't know, that's the only reference I found. ( Just knew Farnell sold them & they give country of origin for products they sell ).

( Isn't Luxembourg where Junckers orginates ? Maybe not much of a recommendation then eh ? )

D.

Edited By Dave Daniels on 25/11/2016 19:39:03

Interesting – I'd never ever have guessed Luxembourg!

It does say "Country in which last significant manufacturing process was carried out", so some of it came from somewhere else. Not surprising given it has motors and electronics etc.

Well done Sherlock!

Dave

[LathejackParticipant @lathejack]

The SwissTec lathes are Chinese, and are the same range of Chinese lathes offered by most suppliers of Chinese machinery.

I visited Pro Machine Tools to take a look at the Ceriani and SwissTec lathes. The new SwissTec machine on display I examined was one of the common Chinese 10×22 machines, more or less the equivalent of the Warco WM250 and similar 10×22 lathes from others.

The overall quality of fit and finish on the SwissTec lathe was definitely no better than any other equivalent Chinese made machine, so in that area at least there seemed to be no advantage in paying for one in order to avoid buying other well known Chinese versions. I have no idea if the the SwissTec electronics are any better.

In fact the SwissTec had a quick release type spindle flange, as on some other Chinese versions. But this one had a very thin release collar at the rear of the spindle flange and the collar was bent in three places from the pressure of the three mounting studs. So no special attention by the Swiss appeared to have been lavished on it.

Edited By Lathejack on 25/11/2016 20:38:55

Edited By Lathejack on 25/11/2016 20:55:06

[Graeme KingParticipant @graemeking88577]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 25/11/2016 19:21:03:

Posted by Graeme King on 25/11/2016 17:36:50:

…

I'd almost settled on the Proxxon PD250 as fulfilling all of what we need including place of manufacture when I stumbled over the Swisstec machines and specifically the ST180-300. Space wise we could just about accommodate the ST210-400.

…

Without solid info on origin (which I now appear to have), I was a little stuck.

…

Edited By Graeme King on 25/11/2016 17:39:14

Hi Graham,

If you do buy a Proxxon I'm sure many on the forum would appreciate your opinion of it after a bit of use. There doesn't seem to be much feedback on the web about Proxxon lathes – they're a bit of a mystery, at least to me.

As it is important to you, it may be worth confirming where the Proxxon lathe is actually manufactured. I can't see anything on the Proxxon website or in the Catalogue that identifies the country of origin. It's not unusual for Western firms to have their stuff made abroad…

Dave

 

Hi Dave

If I do down the Proxxon route then the very least I can do is post a few notes on it, once I have done some work on it – you are right, there is a woeful lack of information to be had on the web about it any of the Proxxon family of lathes. That was one of the factors that led me here.

On the subject of place of manufacture not being all it seems – yes, this is a massive issue in the cycle trade where there is a perceived value in a "Made in Italy" label, for instance.

The rules are that you can say "Made in xxx" if 40% "added value" is accrued to the raw item made elsewhere, in country "xxx" So in our world, you could make, say, a carbon fibre bicycle frame but miss out the mountings for the rear wheel in, say, China, import it into, say, Italy, add those parts and paint it there and hey presto, you have transformed something basically useless for what it was made for into a useable bicycle frame thereby adding value above and beyond that 40% threshold. So now, under the rules, it's "Made in Italy". OK, that's a rather over-simplified example but essentially that's what happens.

Additionally we now how even more meaningless labelling like "Designed in the UK" … what elements of the design are covered are not made clear – it might only be the colour scheme!

I'm pretty sure in these days of globalisation, if I scrape away a bit at the origins of the motor armature or something, I'd find Chinese product in the Proxxon … depressing really. One just has to do what one can … I am certainly going to have a dig around and I will report back when I know more.

Edited By Graeme King on 25/11/2016 20:41:11

Edited By Graeme King on 25/11/2016 20:43:11

[HevansccParticipant @hevanscc]

Hi Graeme,

As someone who uses a lathe and mill for bicycle frame building and associate bits and pieces myself, I happily use my Denford Viceroy lathe (essentially a Boxford) and Tom Senior Mill. Given their extreme age they are accurate to a couple of thou, but this may also be due to my engineering inexpertise. I have machined interfernce fits for components of tens of mm diameter, but this was a bit seat of the pants – I read somewhere that a lot depends on the sharpness of the tool used in any case. Anyhow, to answer the question I would say that 2nd hand Boxford in good nick would do what you want and also satisfy the made in Britain and price requirements, plus could be used for larger jobs. But then you may only have space for a benchtop machine and only ever need it for really small stuff. Just my thoughts?

Hywel

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 25/11/2016 20:11:14:

It does say "Country in which last significant manufacturing process was carried out", so some of it came from somewhere else. Not surprising given it has motors and electronics etc.

That can mean assembly, a lick of paint or even just putting on the stickers…

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

There's a Pultra (rather small) and an Emcomat V10 (fairly big) in eth classifieds, both well under £1K.

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

2 to 300mm centres sounds great until you want to drill holes. I have wondered about the Proxxon's myself but would discount the smaller one personally and feel both are a bit toy like.

Your wants aren't too dissimilar to mine actually. I have a Pultra to work on and the only known example of another make of lathe as well. I don't think a Pultra is suitable. Getting chucks for them is something of a problem. Collets for them can work out pretty expensive as well and in terms of bar work they have a limited range of sizes in minute steps. With either you might spend more time sorting them out rather than getting on with your business. That can happen with any used lathe. Messing with the things is part of my hobby. I must be into self harm. More likely the challenge.

While you don't want far east if your Harrison is moderately recent it was made in Taiwan and just assembled here. Sadly there is no getting away from them.

Neil's baseline Boxford comes with all sorts of things missing. The headstocks can be assembled with a variety of things connected to them. It might even be a plain lathe and if not probable needs a set of gears to get a range of feeds or pay a fair bit more for one that can do several feeds with some gears and a selector knob. If you want one with precision bearings the cost will go up yet again.

There will be shrieks of horror but I think you might be better off with one of these.

**LINK**

Or maybe the variable speed version of the same lathe but for best reliability and normal torque behaviour the belt drive one is a better option and if your always using it on small parts it might spend it's life running at 2,000 rpm. If you do batch work changing speed wont matter much anyway. For really small parts more revs would be desirable but there can be penalties on bearing wear. 2,000 rpm with a 2 morse spindle size should be bearable. While the centre height on these lathes can be used this is mostly apart from variable speed where they get their model engineering rating from. They come with test reports. Not seen one for this model but the ones I have seen look to be pretty good to me.

For small lathes this site still offers some of the rather well known names, EMCO and Toyo for instance. Made elsewhere these days but to the same specifications.

**LINK**

but I think that you should bear in mind that they aren't really intended for a lot of use. Me thinks that applies to Proxxon's too. Probably even more so.

John

–

 

 

 

Edited By Ajohnw on 26/11/2016 00:24:49

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 24/11/2016 21:43:39:

… hinting that Myford is not ?

.

So … who [if anyone] are we to believe ?

**LINK** http://www.myford.co.uk/

"New high speed Super 7 Connoiseur lathes are made here, on site, in the UK"

Myford no longer manufacture, more accurate would be "assembled here in the UK from any bits we have left from the purchase of Myford Ltd."

It's not Myford Nottingham any more, most of the manufacturing equipment at the Nottingham site was sold at auction – the new owners had no use for it, and as has been stated elsewhere Myford isn't exactly RDG, but it's close enough that it makes no difference from the consumer's point of view.

I'd be surprised if the new owners don't start having new parts made at some point but in line with all the new lathe accessories they sell I suspect they will be made off-shore, east of here, and "down to a price" rather than by the Nottingham "up to a standard" ethos

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Nick Hulme on 01/12/2016 09:13:18:

I'd be surprised if the new owners don't start having new parts made at some point but in line with all the new lathe accessories they sell I suspect they will be made off-shore, east of here, and "down to a price" rather than by the Nottingham "up to a standard" ethos

They already are having new parts made (they claim) in the UK, including some accessories that original Myford discontinued some time ago. The certainly look well made although I have only seen them and not used them.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> Neil's baseline Boxford comes with all sorts of things missing.

It has a QCTP and 3-Jaw as standard, but yes a full set of change wheels is an optional extra on the 280.

http://www.boxford.co.uk/cms/boxford-content/uploads/2014/05/Centre_Lathes.pdf

The Warco you link to is a good lathe, but the OP is determined to have a European machine.

Emco claim "United under the common maxim of “Made in the Heart of Europe” " but apparently "The current Unimat 4 and Compact 8E ("E" for East) are made in China."

Toyo are Japanese.

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Nick Hulme on 01/12/2016 09:13:18:

It's not Myford Nottingham any more, most of the manufacturing equipment at the Nottingham site was sold at auction – the new owners had no use for it, and as has been stated elsewhere Myford isn't exactly RDG, but it's close enough that it makes no difference from the consumer's point of view.

.

.All the jigs and fixtures needed for lathe production were not part of the sale and scrapped.

For anyone that went to the sale in the room where the machines were and the small lots, just outside was an empty room with racking. It was here that the jigs and fixtures were kept.

When these were being loaded into skips to go to Simm's in Nottingham to be broken up, Darren, Myford head fitter was nearly in tears saying things like they will never make them how we used to make them. Which is very true.

Instead of say a head stock casting going onto 8 or so jigs and fixtures and being passed between three ? machines if they wanted to make this today it would go on a 5 axis machining centre and have everything machined at one go and far more accurately.

Myford's prided themselves on their workmanship and machining but then the machines had to be hand built ?

So either the machining wasn't up to snuff or the hand building was unnecessary ? You can't have it both ways.

Plenty of trades can accurately machine then assemble instead of hand fitting so something was lacking at Myford.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 01/12/2016 21:38:18:

Toyo are Japanese.

Neil

.

Wrong tense I'm afraid, Neil

Toyo were Japanese

**LINK**

http://www.rejon.co.uk/manix.php

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

You really think that a 5 axis machine must do it more accurately than jigs John ??

One other seemingly odd aspect of changes like that is that often the parts cost far more to cover the cost of the machine.

John

–

Edited By Ajohnw on 01/12/2016 23:23:42

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