surface grinder

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

I'm presently having thoughts about a small surface grinder. I only need a small one and, since it will live in the garage and only get occasional use, I'm not sure I need dust collection systems, dressers etc. I do want it to be repeatable and give good finishes though,

I notice Warco do one which looks like it fits the bill perfectly size-wise. However I have no idea of the machining capability of such a machine, as opposed to say a used J&S.

1) Has anyone got a Warco and if so what do you think about it ?

2) There are clones of the Warco design around, with different paint and probably a slightly different price. But is there anything else on the market with a similar size and price tag to the 'Warco design'?

3) For the smallest J&S (1540?) in good condition what should I expect to have to pay for a defect-free machine ?

Thoughts and comments appreciated.

Regards,

Gerry

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Also sold motorised as the Tormach PSG-612. Loved the video so I bought the cheap one

I replaced the "hawser", connecting the grinder to its counterbalance weight, with a 6mm chain.

I removed the strangely imprecise, right angle Z handle and fitted a 6mm ball screw where it used to be.

I love the idea that after diamond dressing the wheel you know its exact height above the table.

I want to motorise Z, as well as X and Y, but it is proving tricky.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Gerry,

I bought a Warco surface grinder a while ago. It's marketed and described as a "Simple surface grinder" and that's exactly what it is. As long as you don't expect J&S results from it, I don't think you'll be too disappointed. It does what it says on the tin, which is all I expected it to do and it serves my simple purposes well. The droopy cable and counter-balance system for the Z-axis is somewhat crude and can result in jerky movement sometimes, but nothing that can't be solved. (See Robin's post, above.) I'm happy with the results I get, but they could be even better, if I had the knowledge and inclination to do something about it!

If you do purchase a surface grinder, I would encourage you to obtain extra wheel hubs, so that once mounted and balanced, the hub can stay with its respective wheel. Saves a lot of hassle and in the grand scheme of things they are relatively inexpensive. One other thing. The Warco machine is limited on the width of wheel it can accommodate. Not surprisingly, therefore, don't expect to remove massive amounts of metal in one pass. Little and often is the watchword – but then we're not in a hurry are we?

John

Edit: I use mine to resharpen end mills with a Stevenson fixture and a diamond wheel as well as normal flat grinding.

Edited By John Hinkley on 10/08/2021 19:24:11

[John PParticipant @johnp77052]

Grinding it seems to be a much neglected subject on the forum here and also
in the magazines.
I looked at the Warco surface grinder some while back when it was just over a £1000,
they seem to be well made but with only a 12" x 6" is a bit small for some things.
I think they derive originally from the "Macson" surface grinder in Lathes UK and are seen
as Warco, Tormac and various other clones ,difficult to use with any sort of coolant
systems without some extensive modifications.
The 540 machine great if you have room for it and can find one for a good price they seem to
be around the price of the Warco machine and upwards ,don't know how good they are at
that price range you may be lucky or end up with a lemon ,in any event the spares
are expensive have a look at JUBILEE MACHINE TOOLS their starting price
for one of these is around 18K.
The other option is to make your own or modify an existing machine tool ,some
issues back in MEW Alan Jackson used a Dore Wesbury mill as a base
for a small surface grinder.
Arc Euro sell replacement milling tables,it would not take much to fabricate
a small machine using one of these or similar ,would make an interesting
project.

John

[pete hammondParticipant @petehammond94283]

All,

I have a small free standing surface grinder 'buried' under other projects in the shed! works well but little used by me. real old iron, (splits for transport and actually has heavy duty castors on it). Has a mag chuck about 10 inch long by 4 inch wide. Based in Aylesbury Bucks – welcome to view. £400 starting point for coffee and discussion Will look for more details on it later today. Pete

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The other option is to make your own or modify an existing machine tool ,

Nobby, in a previous thread, modified a Drummond shaper for use as a surface grinder.

I bought an Eagle and am pleased with it. I’m no expert surface grinder, but it does a good enough job for me. I was looking for a Superior but good ones seemed to be out of my price range.🙁

TBH, I think I would very likely prefer my Eagle to the Warco, except that the wheels are not mounted on separate centres (thus allowing easy wheel changes without balance issues). The Warco may have better attributes over mine, but as always, the devil is often in the fine detail – and I’ve not really looked for it.

Mine is an 18” x 8” machine – big enough to handle a small cylinder-block or -head. I’ve ground a morris minor deck on it.

It did (as Jason would likely home in on), of course, need transporting, painting and rebuilding. Mine was in good condition, but some may be in need of serious attention. Still worked out less than a quarter the cost of a new Warco machine (all in – without taking time into account).

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

Gerry – I used to use J&S (and other various makes) of surface and universal grinders and my preferred small surface grinder was always the J&S 540. I would love one if I had the room but I have not. If I DID have one I would not want to use it without coolant, especially when working to tight tolerances.

You only have to look on ebay at the current crop to see the wide variation in pricing. Bear in mind that if something ‘orrid happens to say – the hydraulics – you will be facing a hefty bill to correct it. By the way, even some of the more expensive examples I looked at appeared to have had heavy use.

So on that basis I would go for a smaller, cheaper manual job. But even with a basic machine, if you are looking for good finishes you will need a diamond dresser – cheap enough for a single point on ebay – and a well balanced wheel.

For now though I will continue to use my bench top T&C grinder for the smaller surface grinding jobs and my linisher for blinging larger lumps.

Rik

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Totally agree with Rik, the J & S 540 was the most often seen surface grinder in all the Toolrooms I frequented, a nice medium sized machine. IF you can get a decent one it will be expensive & you will have to pay your money before finding out if it can grind flat unless the seller will let you 'have a go'?

Tony

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

So its even smaller but how practical is it to adapt a Clarkson T&C grinder so it can do basic surface grinding.

Practical as in the adaptions don't cost a fortune and when done it's "15 minutes" to set-up for surface grinding then just do the job with only normal levels of care. No tricky babying or odd things that have to be done just so and might give satisfactory results.

Obviously the wheel head elevation system needs some re-working to give accurate calibrated movement with very fine adjustment. Dial gauge and calibrated, backlash free screw ought to be easiest way to do that. A calibrated, backlash free screw on the traverse adjustment looks to be a good idea too. Individual wheel arbors are probably an expectation too far although a new spindle with morse taper socket and drawbar might be do-able.

Something up to around £600 for Clarkson, sorting/refurb and modifications might be an attractive price performance ratio.

Clive

[Earny49Participant @earny49]

I have had some success with a Clarkson T & C grinder ( Mk 2 ) for surface grinding without any modifications, other than having the Clarkson spindle extension (Clarkson accessory). Needed to purchase a small magnetic chuck about 5” x 3 “ top surface. Mine was an eclipse that magnetized both to machine table and workpiece. Mounted on T & C table and lightly ground top of mag chuck. Then used it to grind slide bars 5 “ long by 1/2” wide in gauge plate. Slow going and down feed took some controlling but very pleasantly surprised with results. Expecting to use same set up for other items in near future. Will try to post picture later but have an appointment at the moment

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

If you are grinding NEVER underestimate the need for a properly balanced wheel ! Even a simple home made set of balancing ways will be better than nothing ! After first the wheel loosened and ruined a job followed by the wheel coming OFF completely on a clarkson. Then fitting a new wheel to a Brierley that was so far out that the whole machine shook and dressing it only made it worse, I bought a J&S wheel balancer. Not cheap but at least I knew my wheels were accurately balanced and one of the dangers of using abrasive wheels has been removed ! Noel.

[pete hammondParticipant @petehammond94283]

All,

Further to this mornings for sale offer, typed quickly as a part was heating in oven, and wife due back

Arkadia on large plate attached to surface grinder- must have wiped it a hundred times but this morning was sure it was unbadged- an age thing? Wiped it more often than used it- but it does make a job fit/look nice!

The link below is a brother to my machine NOT my actual machine but does look identical!

Most messages talk about – how to move it – a hatchback car plus enthusiasm and few heavy bits easily removed. Easy to load this end. Actual base area about 18 inch square.

My big question -been my 'work in progress table for many years- a tidy up may be required!

Collection only from Aylesbury but will help load/remove bits etc..

Pete

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lathes.co.uk%2Farkadia%2F&psig=AOvVaw0yJrscsCSAKZXV3omCtXgr&ust=1628773641841000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCLD81eOEqfICFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Further to this mornings for sale offer,

Pete,

There is a dedicated section for sales ads. Doesn’t hang around in a thread for evermore, doesn’t hijack other’s threads, doesn't disappear as soon as the next page comes up and is more likely to be seen by potential buyers.

Some parts do appear to have a similarity to the Eagle, but also to some others, as well.

The sales section can be found fairly low down on the right side of the page.

I’m guessing it rotates clockwise (Eagle runs anti-clockwise) and the wheel guard swings down for an exhaust pipe to be fitted? What a novel idea! Is yours 3 phase like the one shown? It most certainly seems as it is an ‘orphan’ amongst surface grinders.

[pete hammondParticipant @petehammond94283]

Apologies

Sorry I was trying to offer a quick available representative alternative to a new buy and a price/value comparison. I also believe many of us have equipment we no longer really want-would like to see it go to a good home and be used more – but not, and this certainly includes me, actively looking to sell anything.

To confirm and is sum of my knowledge- The machine is single phase, the table goes up/down, left right, in and out , cast hood over the wheel, motor in the base and provides a ground finish. An Arkadia.from the attached label this may just be a manufacturers label not the 'model' of surface grinder.

Best Regards to all and apologies to anyone offended by my thread diversion..

Pete- Back to the shed.

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Many thanks all for your contributions.

The other day I very nearly placed an order for the Warco when I heard that prices were likely to go up in the future due to dramatic rises in shipping costs. But impulsiveness has caught me out before so I hesitated. Am I'm glad I did because a J&S 540 has come up for sale quite close to me so I must at least have a look at it.

This J&S looks 'ligit' and has apparently been in good use until recently when a new and more versatile machine replaced it. Its over 40 years since I last touched and used one of these machines so hoping now that some of you can give me a few pointers on what to look for when I go and see it.

SPINDLE – as a bearing engineer this doesn't worry me too much. I have a vibration analyser so will be able to detect any deterioration here. I have callibrated ears too !

BED WEAR – I will do some simple DI checks but I also will ask the owner to grind a steel strip on both sides so that I can measure the thickness variation. If its more than a couple of microns I might have reservations.

But what about things like the hydraulics – what should I look for here ? And are there any other points I should check apart for general functionality ?

On the nameplate pic I notice it refers to different voltages for star and delta in the motor. Does this mean I can run it directly on 240V just by swopping some wires in the motor connections box ?

Also which 'nut' is it that needs oiling ?!!

Gerry

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

NO you can not just plug into 1Ph 240v. Star and delta are 3ph connections, IF you want to use it on an inverter(VFD) wire it delta 240v at 50Hz DO NOT try to run it any higher than 50Hz or you run the risk of over speeding the wheel amongst other things. For a transwave converter wire it star 415v. If the machine has a Diret on line starter use it, it will protect the motor. Good Luck. Noel

Edited By noel shelley on 21/08/2021 17:20:28

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Also which 'nut' is it that needs oiling ?!!

Don’t know anything about these machines, except that I discounted looking at them because of size snd weight, but removing the cover may reveal something under it! Guessing it refers to the motor?

Agree with Noel, it should only be run at 50Hz – because it also runs hydraulics if there is only one motor on the machine. If more than one motor, things may be complicated with VFD use.

I can vary the frequency with the Eagle because it only has a spindle motor so I can alter the speed dependent on the size and grade of the wheel if required (as long as I don’t exceed the safe maximum for the wheel in use). Apparently, running a wheel slower effectively changes its grading. Smaller diameter wheels may be cheaper and need to run faster for the same surface speed. But that is all further down the line for me. Simple surface grinding to achieve a good finish is my main aim.

I would be checking the thickness variation on a workpiece of full table length – it may be pretty well perfect over a short distance while not at the extremities of the table travel. I hope you have easy access – I don’t think I would relish taking one to pieces to move it? The J&S is at least three times the weight of most manual machines of similar size, I believe, but doubtless a good one would run rings around a manual one!

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