Stent Tool Grinder

[Fred MillerParticipant @fredmiller19582]

[Fred MillerParticipant @fredmiller19582]

Is there anyone with construction information on the Stent , and where can you get a ‘kit’ or  manufacturing drawings, I’ve seen the articles in MEW on attachments but nothing on the “How To” from the base begining.Also what   dose everybody think about the comparson with a Quorn Tool Grinder.

Fred,       Australia.

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Blackgates stock all the castings, and have done so for years. So they should be able to help.

 

Set of 4 drawings £18,  Full set of castings listed at £205,  motor, various accessories and bearings also stocked.

 

 

construction series ME Dec 91 – June 92.

 

Details form their catalogue which I picked up at the last MEX.

[Fred MillerParticipant @fredmiller19582]

Thanks Meyrick for your reply, I had a look at Blackgates, their website ‘seems to me’  not to be very user friendly. I’ll keep looking.    ME  Dec 91 – June 92 , if I could  get through on that  “subscribers only ‘  section,  (they do not seem to allow us OS subscribers that privilege )  or any one with those copies for sale I might try that way.

There has been no comments on Quorn V ‘s  Stent but you never no.      Fred

[Roger VaneParticipant @rogervane67137]

 

Hi Fred,

Quorn or Stent? Let me start the ball rolling …..

I too had the same dilemma – I wanted a small T & C grinder, but was it to be the Quorn or the Stent? In the event, I chose the Quorn and completed construction over a period of several years. The Stent as designed is a fairly crude machine whilst the Quorn appears to be far more sophisticated. 

Was this the right decision? Although the Quorn will carry out many operations, particularly with special attachments, I have become increasingly frustrated with it. The main reason being that, apart from movement along the bed bars, other movements involve the generation of arcs rather than straight lines and therefore there are no graduated linear scales.  This makes it very tedious to use (for me anyway). The Stent on the other hand has normal linear movements and graduated scales.

I had decided to stick with the Quorn until I read an article by Charles Woodward in MEW 137 (April 2008), in which Charles appraised both machines and described how he had modified the original Stent design into what might be termed a ‘Super Stent’. This is well worth reading and may help you to make the final decision.

Charles has now written a further series of very helpful articles, currently being published in MEW. There has also been a series of articles on using the Clarkson in recent issues of MEW and as the Stent is based on the Clarkson, these too have been very helpful.  

My problems were resolved, and I decided to build the Super Stent, but with a few more modifications of my own – primarily to utilise the Quorn principle of interchangeable wheels and maybe some of the tooling (as I already have these). This now involves some more redesign, particularly the spindle which needs further ‘beefing-up’ due to the hole required for the drawbar. Detail design work is now well under way for the main assemblies, and I hope to start cutting metal shortly.

Overall, my own opinion is that properly ‘tooled-up’, the Super Stent is the better option, although I’m sure that the two machines will compliment each other, with some jobs being better done on the Stent and some on the Quorn. Hope that this helps – what do other people think?

Prices – a shock here I’m afraid. I bought my Stent casting set from Blackgates in July 2008 just after a price increase due to foundry costs – cost of castings and drawings was around £320. I believe that Quorn casting prices are very similar.

Regards.

[Philip MajorParticipant @philipmajor52482]

Anyone know where I can buy a book on building and adding to a Stent. I am building one, have the castings and drawing, but need more knowledge on how to put it all together.  The GA bit of the drawings and a bit short of what I need.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Philip

 

Write up ME Vol 167-168   3910 – 3922 even issues.

 

Send me a message  if you have a problem 

 

Regards

Norman

Edited By NJH on 07/09/2010 23:36:39

[Peter Ellis 5Participant @peterellis5]

Posted by Roger Vane on 29/09/2009 12:21:50:

Charles has now written a further series of very helpful articles, currently being published in MEW. There has also been a series of articles on using the Clarkson in recent issues of MEW and as the Stent is based on the Clarkson, these too have been very helpful.

As this was historical, can anyone help with the follow on MEW issue numbers please ?

[egaParticipant @ega]

Am I right in thinking that GHT had some early input to the design of the Stent?

I recall his bemoaning the fact that his Quorn castings were taking root on the shelf.

The Quorn design has been built by way of fabrication and, presumably, so could the Stent.

[Frank GorseParticipant @frankgorse]

There’s a grinder designed by Derek Brooks in MEW 16-17,all fabricated,which has been called the Brooks Stent. There’s a lot of info about it,including pictures and errata, on the Gadgetbuilder website. I’ve been thinking about building one ever since the article appeared,nearly 28 years ago now.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Guys,

I've been building a modified "Brooks" TCG ! I will have been at it for two years come next March.

I've used ball races instead of the precision ground bars and made my own spindle design. If I was doing it again I would go the whole hog and use dovetail guides and gib strips. I've done a WIP on another forum along with drawings and photographs.

I'm now into things like control knobs, tool holders and assorted wheel hubs.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Gentlemen,Prices for the castings have been mentioned and on that basis if you want to sharpen tools then on grounds of cost a clarkson MK1 or 2 is the way to go. I bought 3 in under a year and paid no more than £400 each. All had the essential tools,lights guards Etc. One was a very late MK1 and almost new. Another had a new 1ph motor with a huge assortment of holders, bushes Etc. If they are 3ph it is easy to change the motor or use a converter. They are easy to break down into 3 lumps for transport and will fit in a car or estate though the MK2 base is very heavy. All threads are imperial and you will need a 3/8" allen key.

Best wishes, Noel

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

What do you want to grind? I have a Quorn that I inherited and almost never use because it's so fiddly to set up. I have also built an Acute grinder from EE which will shape lathe tools and sharpen the ends of end mills and slot drills. The only thing in principle a Quorn does extra is sharpen flutes but it doesn't do that very well unless you make additional accessories. Personally for the home workshop I think the Acute is brilliant, a kit is cheaper than a Quorn or Stent and made in Australia!

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

Blackgates casting set is now £468.00 for 12 castings plus a further £20.00 for the drawings.

See page 99 of their catalogue here: Link

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Initially, I wanted to make a Quorn, but lacked the confidence for some of the operations, (The coarse thread on the column for instance ) but took the chance of buying a secondhand Worden kit, which had been started to extent of drilling a few holes oversize. This was an easily overcome problem. The holes were not symmetrically placed, so turn the bars end for end, and redrill to the correct tapping size!.

Consequently, the Stent was never ordered or made, although that was my second choice had the Worden been an offer not to be refused.

Howard

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I am building both the Hemingway 'Worden' and the Blackgates 'Stent' – but will reverse the latter's superstructure so the spindle is nearer the centre of the table at mid-travel. That is not my idea but one I recall published some years ago in either MEW or ME – would that be Charles Woodward's?

However, regarding John Haine's contribution, if you are not likely to need to carry out sophisticated operations like tap and cutter-flute sharpening, or want to reserve the T&C Grinder's delicate wheels for those, it is worth seeing what Harold Hall shows for simple, fabricated tool-grinders based around a standard bench grinder.

'

A point about the Worden – unless it's been modified since I bought the kit about 4 years ago now, the cutter holders as designed are all for Imperial cutter shanks. So I have made two sets, one imperial the other metric. They fit the same 'Primary Tool Holder'. To differentiate them I turned a shallow marker groove in the metric ones, agreeing with those on the collets for my Clarkson 'Autolock'.

I have in mind making a second one of the PTH, with a square channel instead of a bore (apart from the end that holds the Feed Nut), for flexibility in grinding HSS lathe tools and similar.

'

Whilst machining the Worden parts I am adding the mods specified for the lead-screw kit, etc. Though I have not bought those accessories, yet anyway, it makes sense to think ahead while the machine is still a box of parts in freezer-bags.

'

Another point – and by no means confined to these two projects – I try to use batch-operation and related-operation methods. So for example I turned-only most of the Worden's smaller round bits with cross-holes and pcd holes, labelled and packed them; until l could drill and tap them all in similar settings on the mill. They even shared machine-room with parts for the Stent, and for my steam-wagon. Similarly I am setting up to mill the Worden's 2 ticklish blocks as related-operation parts. If you read the typical serials in the magazines they tend to assume making many of the parts individually to completion, and sometimes you have to do that, but on a complicated machine like a loco that can create a lot of extra, repeated machine-tool setting-up and breaking-down.

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

I have the full set (as far as I know) of articles for the Stent courtesy of IanT. If anyone want's .pdf copies send your email to me via messenger here and I'll get them over.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Rather than make up hordes of holders for Drills and End Mills, why not follow Giles Parkes with his Worden, and make up a holder to use ER 20 collets?.

To hold Imperial 1/16 to 1/2 x 1/64, Metric by 1 to 10 x 0.1, or 1 to 13 x 0.5, Number and Letter drills you will need LOTS of holders.

ER20 collets will cover 1 to 13 mm, and Imperial sizes with just ten collets, with the same sort of set up methods and times.

Probably something similar could be produced for a Stent, or for a Quorn.

I think that D A G Brown uses some form of collet system on his Quorn for four facet grinding of drills.

Howard

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Howard, I think using an existing collet system like ER20 makes perfect sense for any tool grinder setup. In addition to your point about the range of diameters which can be held, the collets will hold the blanks more central to the holder axis and more securely than holders with setscrews or side clamps.

For square tools or rectangular tools, are ER style collets available? If not, conventional holders would be needed for those tools. (preferably V block style, clamp pointing toward the vertex of the V)

I would urge caution to anyone following Charles Woodward designs. I have looked at his work over the years and it seems to me that he frequently finds the very longest and most involved way to do things and forgets about location and friction. Just my opinion.

Lately I have been looking at the design and construction of various Chinese made universal tool grinders. The one in the link below uses 5C collets. These grinders have copies of many of the better features of US, British and German made professional tool grinders of 60-70 years ago, but at a very reasonable price if you wanted to buy one. I noticed there is nothing in the design which could not be fabbed from bar stock/plate in a home workshop. If based on the mentioned industrial machines, there will be nothing you don't need, and nothing missing that you do need, in terms of work position envelope / range of angles etc. Just food for thought.

https://www.shars.com/universal-end-mill-cutter-drill-bit-grinder-sharpener

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Jeff,

Am not aware of ER collets being available for squares or rectangles.

A while ago, there was an article on holding square or rectangular work in ER collets, using pairs of round bars on the flats of the work.

Have never tried it, and could imagine having fun trying to keep eight small bars in the right place while tightening the clamp nut!

I think that someone else advocated producing L shaped grooves in pieces of Barstock, so that it can be held in a round collet.

Maybe this is an excuse to make up a Rotary Broaching Tool before splitting the barstock into four?.

I grind the toolbits for my Tangential Turning Tools by clamping in a block with a groove at 45 degrees, setting the "top rake" (if you can call it that ) by swivelling the slide, with the table set square to the wheel.

Howard

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Howard, No, juggling eight or even four little shim bars in a collet during setup doesn't appeal to me either. The L shaped pieces might work OK but not sure how an ER style collet would apply clamping force evenly to the setup. Maybe a holder with the outside geometry of an ER collet, and a V groove for the item to be ground, would work. Clamping might be possible with a loose piece the collet nut secures/ wedges on, or by a bridge clamp built into the V grooved insert. Might be getting small in size for adequate strength threads and screws, though. Interesting to think about.

Rotary broaching is well worth playing with a bit, and good fun. If you do one, be sure to look up Mike Cox's simplified method from MEW a few years ago. Good results with minimal work to make the necessary bits. I did a nice pentagonal one with the points coincident with a 5/8" diameter circle a few years back for a neighbour in the waterworks service business. He was getting breakages in expensive commercial socket wrenches with the pentagonal socket, scrapping one about every two weeks. I made him a couple in D-2 tool steel, surface hardened and their crew is still using them daily! 

Another way might be to make the tool grinder accept an interchangeable large rectangular block with the socket geometry for the ER collets OR a rectangular block with groove and clamp for rectangular work OR a block with central bore for holding cylindrical tool holders. If all such blocks were located by 2 dowels on a nice finished planar surface (vertical, to shed grinding dust easier) and clamped with a bridge clamp this would make a very versatile unit. (probably been done centuries ago but I am just mentally arriving at how the old timer tool designers did them!)

Rotary broaching is well worth playing with a bit, and good fun. If you do one, be sure to look up Mike Cox's simplified method from MEW a few years ago. Good results with minimal work to make the necessary bits. I did a nice pentagonal one with the points coincident with a 5/8" diameter circle a few years back for a neighbour in the waterworks service business. He was getting breakages in expensive mild steel  commercial socket wrenches with the pentagonal socket, scrapping one about every two weeks. I made him a couple in D-2 tool steel, surface hardened and their crew is still using them daily! 

Cheers Jeff

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 21/12/2020 17:40:24

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

If one were to turn a groove both ends of the square/round thing before slitting it into 4 you could wind up a one turn ring from piano wire and spring it into the groove, one each end. This would hold it all together and in alignment.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

That sounds a good idea, Duncan,

It would avoid for having to evolve a third hand!

Take up Rotary Broaching and then slit!

Another item to go on the Round Tuit!

Thanks

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 22/12/2020 13:53:39

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I really don't understand why people get fixated on making "collets" to hold square tools, other than the fact that designs like the quorn are designed to hold tools in circular fixtures. When I started making tool bits for my Diamond tool holder, I just made a little fitting that would replace the thingy that the collets fit in, it's a rectangular steel block with a short silver steel bar to fit in the workhead, and a slot milled out to take the tool blank with a couple of SHCs to clamp it. The Worden and Stent, and the Acute, are IMHO better adapted to holding square tools in easy to make holders.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 21/12/2020 17:30:47:

Rotary broaching is well worth playing with a bit, and good fun. If you do one, be sure to look up Mike Cox's simplified method from MEW a few years ago. Good results with minimal work to make the necessary bits.

I had a look at Mike Cox's web site and had a go at making one – but I made the rotary part out of a redundant revolving centre mounted in a mild steel block machined to fit on my QCTP. It incorporated the necessary angles in its flank and rear face. Photos and brief construction description in my album entitled Rotary broaching tool

Incidentally, I was the author of the article referred to by Howard, suggesting using various sizes of rods to hold square stock in round collets. In my defence and of those of us with only two hands, it was said in the article that it wasn't supposed to be a long-term solution to the problem, but a stop-gap, one off, temporary arrangement.

John

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