Single phase reverse electrical genious required

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Posted by NJH on 28/06/2016 16:22:17:

Martin

Just a sideways thought – why do you need to reverse your motor? I too bought a reversing switch, in a moment of enthusiasm, some years ago. I've not got round to fitting it and , so far, I have found no need to run my lathe in reverse!

Norman

I need to reverse it as its spinning wrong way for my lathe to run.

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Posted by John Rudd on 28/06/2016 16:50:06:

I realise that, but this motor is ex-equipment, it may not be designed to run in the opposite direction, even if it has a centrifugal switch, the design may be such that it might not/can not run against the direction it was designed for….

I dont think anyone has estabilshed it has a centrafulgal regulator my understanding is all motors can be run in reverse!

Edited By Martin Newbold on 28/06/2016 16:57:11

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

I found this which is interesting https://woodgears.ca/motors/reversing.html. Please note the plate does not say it cannot be reveresed

[Gordon Smith 1Participant @gordonsmith1]

Presumably this motor is off a circular saw which only needs to run in one direction so may well be designed to be irreversible.

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Posted by Martin Newbold on 28/06/2016 16:56:45:

 

I dont think anyone has estabilshed it has a centrafulgal regulator my understanding is all motors can be run in reverse!

Edited By Martin Newbold on 28/06/2016 16:57:11

Thats pretty fundamental to what you want to do with it……

Well I'm off to the pub……

I'll let the better informed help….

Edited By John Rudd on 28/06/2016 17:31:01

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

just swapped red and black as per article all works now

https://woodgears.ca/motors/reversing.html

[Brian OldfordParticipant @brianoldford70365]

Posted by NJH on 28/06/2016 16:22:17:

Martin

Just a sideways thought – why do you need to reverse your motor? I too bought a reversing switch, in a moment of enthusiasm, some years ago. I've not got round to fitting it and , so far, I have found no need to run my lathe in reverse!

Norman

Wait until you need to cut metric threads on an imperial lathe. Leaving the half-nuts closed and reversing the machine back to the thread start is the only way to do the job. It could be wound back by a mandrel hand-wheel but on any longish thread that'll be an absolute chore. Running back under power with the tool withdrawn from the work make life a lot easier.

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Hi Norman . The kity motor I have had a pulley on each end the previous use used the end nearest the fan end on the equipment it was used on. This turned the right way.I wanted the nomal face pulley end so it was rotating the wrong way round . The reason was the bolting position to pulley position. This is why it needed reversing, I presume a switch would just need to reverese red and black positions. This is really good **LINK**

Martin

Edited By Martin Newbold on 28/06/2016 22:14:49

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Brian -Thanks . Yes I can see that would be a problem – however my interest is at the "small" end of things and screw cutting doesn't really figure in my operations. Maybe though I should set to and fit the switch – just in case!

Martin. – Had I read your thread more closely I guess I would have realised the nature of your difficulty. I'm glad you are sorted. Thanks for the link – a good explanation – added to my bookmarks!

Norman

PS

Good grief I've just noticed that I've clocked up 2000 posts on this forum! No wonder I'm all behind with all my projects.

Edited By NJH on 29/06/2016 10:52:16

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Martin,
There are several points.

1
I agree with Frank Brown that there are too many connections to the switch for it to be a simple on/off switch. Other than the possibility that it is a reversing switch that is mechanicaly faulty causing it to only move into two positions rather than three it may be just possible that it could have a braking function. (Possibly DC injection braking.)

2
You say that you "do not think it has a centrifugal switch just an NVR" An NVR has a totaly different function to a centrifugal switch. (There is nothing in your pictures that looks like an NVR.) I suspect that the two brown wires could be a centrifugal switch. What is the resistance between the two brown wires ? You will need to disconnect one of them to take the reading so that the resistance of the windings do not confuse the results.

3
You say that you think the switch latches. Do you mean that with no power applied the switch springs back to the off position but with power applied it will stay in the on position until power is removed ? If this is the case it is performing an NVR function. (Most NVR switches have a stop button and a start button.)

4
Have you noticed that the motor is rated at 3000 RPM ? I suspect the original motor would have been a 1450 RPM motor so you will need to change the drive ratio.

Les.

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 29/06/2016 12:42:38

[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

So its an ex circular saw motor and switch. Just thinking aloud. Circular saws have a lot of inertia and as mentioned, only run in one direction. So how about a start relay inside the box. You switch the motor on on one set of windings, then once another set of windings generate enough voltage, the start cap is taken out of circuit and an additional winding is switched in to get the motor up to full speed (and power). The inrush current from a 1 k motor with a direct mains start would be a be too much for a 13A fuse [inrush ~5 X running current].

So is there a relay inside the box?

Frank

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Nono its all good working beautifully and reversed fine lots of torque and yes off a big saw bench . the red and black wires needed to be swapped used this article is really good:

**LINK**

 

Edited By Martin Newbold on 30/06/2016 09:24:29

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Posted by NJH on 29/06/2016 10:48:22:

Brian -Thanks . Yes I can see that would be a problem – however my interest is at the "small" end of things and screw cutting doesn't really figure in my operations. Maybe though I should set to and fit the switch – just in case!

Martin. – Had I read your thread more closely I guess I would have realised the nature of your difficulty. I'm glad you are sorted. Thanks for the link – a good explanation – added to my bookmarks!

Norman

PS

Good grief I've just noticed that I've clocked up 2000 posts on this forum! No wonder I'm all behind with all my projects.

Edited By NJH on 29/06/2016 10:52:16

Hi Norman , yes thanks I understand Brian too but not figuring this at present . I know it can be reversed so its only a question of adding some wiring and a reversing switch now . But not that its urgent as just want to get used to using lathe first and possibly need some more bits to that end first. Thank you everyone for your help Please bookmark the link on the site its brilliant and really solved this.

Martin

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Can this be converted to run a http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/content/IMAGES/RS1_diagram.jpg switch that is a drum type remote please? Like this http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/1-5-hp-2-hp-electric-motor-reversing-drum-switch-position-maintained-rs-1-sh/#sthash.Vq4UY9jK.dpbs

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

For Your Information

The reversing of the motor with this combination required the following wires connected as follows:

N -> a

R -> Mains.L

S ->Mains N

T (empty)

W -> yellow motor windings, starter capacitor. brown

V -> motor black windings, starter capacitor blue

b -> (brown into motor temp)

U-> motor blue windings , (brown to motor temp)., red motor windings goes onto lower rail onto U.

Essentially swapping Black and Red

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Hi Brian , Norman

However a piece of plastic with wires out of it I would love to know what its doing and what its connecting when its switched on please?

M

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

I have read in regard the letters W V U the following however its seems a bit greek

for start connection join ( X,Y.Z ) and connect U(phase 1),V(phase2),W(phase3) and Delta Join(U,Z) phase 1,join(V,X)phase 2,join(W,Y) phase 3

normative DIN (GERMAN ) use the first letter U mean (oder)V, W (ELCTRICAL MACHINERY) AND (R) (S) (T) FOR electrical terminals phases 120° degree R is not Run , S is not Start , T is not Time

I presume this is for Three phase so not applicable

[TobyParticipant @toby]

Posted by Martin Newbold on 21/02/2017 20:58:09:

I have read in regard the letters W V U the following however its seems a bit greek

 

normative DIN (GERMAN ) use the first letter U mean (oder)V, W (ELCTRICAL MACHINERY) AND (R) (S) (T) FOR electrical terminals phases 120° degree R is not Run , S is not Start , T is not Time

<p style="margin: 0px 0px 1em; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-size: 15px; clear: both; color: rgb(36, 39, 41); font-family: Verdana, " bitstream="" vera="" sans",="" "dejavu="" tahoma,="" geneva,="" arial,="" sans-serif;="" background-color:="" rgb(255,="" 255,="" 255);"="">I presume this is for Three phase so not applicable

Correct, this is for 3 phase and nothing to do with reversing them.

If you are after reversing a single phase induction motor this link might help you…….

**LINK**

 

EDIT: Somehow I missed the fact this was the end of a long thread on the subject so apologies if what I have said is not relevant…….

Edited By Toby on 21/02/2017 22:18:02

Edited By Toby on 21/02/2017 22:18:20

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Reversing a simple single phase motor should be a quick swap at the motor box, it will only go in one direction but there are no complicated three way switch issues

AEI thread

I basically swapped the two "into the motor unknown" fellas over

 

Edited By Ady1 on 22/02/2017 10:56:39

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Toby what a brilliant link https://woodgears.ca/motors/reversing.html. I thought this was really interesting thank you for providing it I feel i might be able to draw a diagram now

Adi that is really interesting I need to get my head round these motor start capacitors as they are a lot smaller now as the components are more discreet. I presume there was only one type now I see there are many. I have located a new aluminum box and some other parts but have to get back to order them.

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Do you think this could be replaced with this or are they different please

**LINK**

Start and Run Motor Capacitor Generator 450v most UF ratings 20 25 40 50 60 80

UNIVERSAL CAPACITORS SUITABLE FOR MOST APPLIANCES

450VAC 50/60 Hz

HIGH QUALITY REPLACEMENT PART WITH 4 TAB TERMINALS

CAN BE USED TO REPLACE CAPACITORS WITH 2 TABS, SIMPLY CONNECT ONE SPADE TO EACH SIDE

WE OFFER ONE OF THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE RANGES OF CAPACITORS ON EBAY WITH THE FOLLOWING AVAILABLE IN OUR EBAY SHOP

1.5UF, 2.5UF, 3UF, 3.5UF, 4UF, 4.5UF, 5UF, 6UF, 6.3UF, 7UF, 7.5UF, 8UF, 9UF, 10UF, 11UF, 12.5UF, 14UF, 15UF, 16UF, 18UF, 20UF, 22UF, 25UF, 30UF, 31.5UF, 35UF, 40UF, 45UF, 50UF, 60UF, 70UF AND 80UF

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

A 25uF 450V AC capacitor is a suitable replacement for a 25uF 430V AC one, especially as they are both designed for use as motor starting capacitors.

Neil

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

Thanks Neil I need to get things smaller on my motor since installing gearbox so wanted a smaller cap .. If I have a rotary switch do I connect this capacitor at motor end or at rotary reverse controller please.

 

Martin

Edited By Martin Newbold on 25/02/2017 18:26:14

[Martin NewboldParticipant @martinnewbold]

hi i wanted to know does the cap fit around the motor coil or in series with it please like my dewhurst switch diagram shows?

I presume it should be in series?

Martin

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Starting capacitors are in series with the start winding otherwise it wont work…..followed by a release of smoke as the windings melt….

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