Silver Solder Stocks

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Stueeee on 24/07/2021 08:54:29:

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:…

At the time of writing that's true. Apparently a crime being committed. From my experience, I can state that the product arrives with Johnson Matthey's paperwork pointing out precautions to be taken in use, the product's unsuitability for use in a food environment etc. So where is the victim here? Some people don't want to use Cadmium bearing Silver solder. Fine, don't buy it.

So where is the victim here? Good question! Could be you, me, the neighbours, children yet unborn, and the taxpayer.

Cadmium's poisonous and suspected carcinogenic properties don't just effect the operator. Though most obviously dangerous when Silver solder is fuming it's also a problem for the Cleaner, whoever disposes or recycles the finished item in years to come, and anyone who drinks water from contaminated landfill.

Of course one or two folk quietly soldering the odd joint with cadmium loaded solder doesn't matter. What does is large numbers doing the same, which happens as soon as products like this hit the market.

Think 'other people'. What's OK on a private ranch in deepest Montana might not be OK in a central Manchester tower block. Neighbours have rights too, and why should the taxpayer pick up the cost of our mistakes? The worldwide ban on Cadmium is aimed at protecting the public, and the practicalities exclude making hobbyists a special exception.

Easier to buy solder from someone reputable and take their advice. See Keith Hale's comments.

Dave

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

I suspect that the manufacture of such solder is far more hazardous on the whole than the use, and the process of cadmium plating several orders of magnitude more enviromentally hazardous again.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Stueeee on 24/07/2021 08:54:29:

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:

Hi, but there is still at least one in the UK on Ebay selling some and openly states that it contains Cadmium and described as good old fashioned Easy-Flo No.1. You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:53:12

At the time of writing that's true. Apparently a crime being committed. From my experience, I can state that the product arrives with Johnson Matthey's paperwork pointing out precautions to be taken in use, the product's unsuitability for use in a food environment etc. So where is the victim here? Some people don't want to use Cadmium bearing Silver solder. Fine, don't buy it.

As this was described as old stock, the paperwork was likely to be out of date too.

It is not just a case of wanting to use it, buy buying it you have also broken the law, unlikely to be enforced but still illegal unless you are one of the few allowed industrial users.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Does being illegal to put on the market automatically make buying it an offence too though?

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Stueeee on 24/07/2021 08:54:29:

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:

Hi, but there is still at least one in the UK on Ebay selling some and openly states that it contains Cadmium and described as good old fashioned EF. You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:53:12

At the time of writing that's true. Apparently a crime being committed. From my experience, I can state that the product arrives with Johnson Matthey's paperwork pointing out precautions to be taken in use, the product's unsuitability for use in a food environment etc. So where is the victim here? Some people don't want to use Cadmium bearing Silver solder. Fine, don't buy it.

Hi Stueeee, I'm sorry if my post has upset you, but apart from all the other comments about any victims, those who are unaware or just don't understand the dangers of Cadmium in silver solders, are in the front line of victims.

Regards Nick.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 22/07/2021 22:36:13:

Why is it that when something hazardous is taken off the market and replaced with a safer product there is alwys a group who immidiately want to use the old stuff?

regards Martin

 

It's almost the same with lead-bearing soft solder. Fortunately I have a lifetime's supply of the old stuff which I still use for all my household plumbing jobs. Less fortuitously I am running low on the old type flux and I am completely out of Baker's fluid. I have found when using the newer lead free stuff that it doesn't run round the joints quite so freely and the new type flux is more sensitive to 'burning' which prevents the solder running at all so you have to be careful when applying the heat. It may well be my lack of skill and knowledge that allows this to happen occasionally. However, having just reconfigured all the underfloor pipework for a new re-arranged bathroom suite I am just hoping that the joints hold under the newly tiled floor. I did leave the joints under the domestic water pressure, which is quite high here being at the bottom of a valley, for a couple of days and checked for any drips before they disappeared for ever, but who can say?

Edited By Chris Crew on 25/07/2021 22:11:39

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I assume that as with jewellery the status of anything made before 2011 will be it has to be 'safe' (without any clear qualifications).

As for 'new old stock' for brazing rods, it's illegal for us to use them, so I can't understand why selling them would be OK.

It might be worth thinking about the legal status of models and locomotive boilers made with cadmium bearing solder.

If you want to sell an item made post 2011, you would be wise to avoid all cadmium containing materials.

Neil

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello Neil,

Could you give a reference to your claim that it is illegal to use cadmium bearing silver solder? According to a friend of mine who is a membe of the legal profssionr. It is illegal to sell said item but not illegal to use it.

Clarification would be appreciated as I am still using cadmium bearing silver solder. I do so outside with positive pressure breathing apparatus.

Andrew.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Pete Rimmer on 24/07/2021 10:16:34:

Does being illegal to put on the market automatically make buying it an offence too though?

Maybe, maybe not. Because English law is based on precedent, and punishments are set by tariff, it's not consistent. But broadly, if it's illegal to sell it, it's usually illegal to buy it. Off-hand I can't think of a counter-example.

Usually selling is a more serious offence than buying. A Cannabis user will get off with a warning, while a Cannabis Dealer will be arrested unless the quantity is tiny. It's illegal in the UK to buy or sell firearms without a licence, and illegal to possess one. You can't trade in firearms by barter or by gifting them.

I've no idea where Cadmium Solder sits between puffing Cannabis and buying a crate full of assault rifles with ammunition.

I don't see risky substances as being black and white. However, to my mind there's a big difference between ignorantly using Cadmium because it makes the job easier, and taking a properly calculated risk with precautions, including what happens to the finished product in years to come. I feel posts in favour of Cadmium solder are being made by practical men who don't know much about Cadmium, for example 'These symptoms are usually delayed for some hours after the exposure, and fatal concentrations may be breathed without sufficient discomfort to warn the workman to leave the exposure.' Common-sense cannot be applied to Cadmium.

Very odd; chaps who have a visceral fear of acid, which might be perfectly safe, are gung-ho about Cadmium, which is always dangerous. I suggest looking it up rather than hoping for the best. A substance being banned is a clear signal the stuff needs a plan, not cracking on regardless!

May help to know humans are p*ss poor at evaluating long-term risk, If it's not immediately and obviously dangerous (like a hungry grizzly bear), we don't get it. Millions are killed every year by prolonged tobacco, booze and sugary goodness…

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 26/07/2021 11:28:30

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/07/2021 10:27:09:

It might be worth thinking about the legal status of models and locomotive boilers made with cadmium bearing solder.

If you want to sell an item made post 2011, you would be wise to avoid all cadmium containing materials.

Neil

I don't like to play Devil's advocate Neil but I really think this is a bit of a stretch. Selling an item that contains traces of cadmium in it's construction isn't the same as selling a product that has cadmium as one of it's constituent parts.

I suspect that it's no more illegal to sell a model built with cadmium-based solder than it is to sell a piece of old equipment that has asbestos flash shields in the electrical cabinet. That said I'd welcome a pointer towards the legislation that specifically makes it so.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

I'm beginning to feel guilty for starting this, which seems to have wandered a LONG way off track.

Brian

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Posted by Brian H on 28/07/2021 22:26:55:

I'm beginning to feel guilty for starting this, which seems to have wandered a LONG way off track.

Brian

Absolutely not your fault Brian. And I certainly wasn't expecting the level of controversy that my post regarding the recent availability of Cadmium bearing Silver solders has caused.

In my experience practical engineers come across all sorts of hazardous material from time to time and make an informed decision as to safety precautions required for their use and whether a substitute product would work as well or better.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Pete Rimmer on 28/07/2021 21:09:30:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/07/2021 10:27:09:

It might be worth thinking about the legal status of models and locomotive boilers made with cadmium bearing solder.

If you want to sell an item made post 2011, you would be wise to avoid all cadmium containing materials.

Neil

I don't like to play Devil's advocate Neil but I really think this is a bit of a stretch. Selling an item that contains traces of cadmium in it's construction isn't the same as selling a product that has cadmium as one of it's constituent parts.

I suspect that it's no more illegal to sell a model built with cadmium-based solder than it is to sell a piece of old equipment that has asbestos flash shields in the electrical cabinet. That said I'd welcome a pointer towards the legislation that specifically makes it so.

Possibly a misunderstanding of how English Law works. There doesn't need to be specific legislation that bans a particular item, because you are potentially in trouble if it does harm. English Law is a mix of written legislation and precedent, the latter being law created by a court ruling resulting from test cases. Duty of Care is strong in English law, Couple of examples:

Some young offenders were doing some supervised work on Brown Sea Island under the Borstal regime. One night the Borstal officers retired for the evening leaving the boys unsupervised. Seven of them escaped and stole a boat which collided with a Yacht owned by the claimant. Result: The Home Office owed a duty of care for their omission as they were in a position of control over the 3rd party who caused the damage and it was foreseeable that harm would result from their inaction. Example going the other way: The defendant bus company left a mini-bus in a lay-by overnight. It was unlocked and the keys left in the ignition. The driver who was expected to pick the bus did not turn up for his shift. Thieves stole the bus and drove it away. Unfortunately the bus knocked a woman off her bicycle and killed her. Her husband brought an action for damages. Result: The bus company did not owe a duty of care for the acts of the third party. It was not foreseeable that thieves would take the bus and run a woman off her bicycle.

 

Now, if you sell a locomotive knowing it contains a banned substance and the Cadmium poisons someone, do you have a duty of care like the Home Office or not? I think you do, though it might be difficult to prove. That the buyer is familiar with boiler construction might be a defence, but it wouldn't work if the loco were sold to a child or a newbie.

 

So, Neil's warning is appropriate because the law isn't black and white:

• I would happily sell a second-hand boiler I didn't know contained cadmium, though I would warn the buyer that it might.
• I wouldn't sell a boiler I knew contained Cadmium because there's some risk of prosecution
• As a business I definitely wouldn't make or repair boilers with Cadmium solder because there's a high risk of prosecution.

Dave

 

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

After having read through this thread it seems that my job lot of Easi-Flo 2 might be difficult/illegal to sell if I decided to move it on. Or is the scaremongrel cocking his leg on some of these posts?

Rik

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Posted by Rik Shaw on 29/07/2021 14:07:03:

After having read through this thread it seems that my job lot of Easi-Flo 2 might be difficult/illegal to sell if I decided to move it on. Or is the scaremongrel cocking his leg on some of these posts?

Rik

You'll have to make your own mind up on the last point; I know what I think.

Would the same police force who just issued a crime number when my workshop was burgled and a lot of expensive stuff stolen decide to launch a full investigation if you sold some of that Silver Solder. Would they or the DPP office pay for spectroscopic analysis to prove the presence of Cadmium?

On the subject of the legality and consequences of purchasing a boiler or such which has been silver soldered with Cadmium bearing silver solder. It was dinned into me during British Constitution and law lessons at school that "ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law" so, if Dave (SoD) is right, maybe a lot of Model Engineers could be doing some porridge in future after unknowingly having bought a boiler or such. However, ISTR that official advice at the time of the ban was that it was OK to use up existing stocks of Silver solder, it would be perverse to then legislate that you couldn't do anything with the constructed items that resulted.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As the main reason for the ban seems to be to protect those using the solder from the harmful effects of fumes when it is molten then unless people are intending to reheat their boilers to soldering temperatures I can't see it doing much harm. More likely to suffer from all that coal smoke you breath in sat 3ft behind the chimney.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Posted by JasonB on 29/07/2021 15:17:43:

As the main reason for the ban seems to be to protect those using the solder from the harmful effects of fumes when it is molten then unless people are intending to reheat their boilers to soldering temperatures I can't see it doing much harm. More likely to suffer from all that coal smoke you breath in sat 3ft behind the chimney.

Quite and that is speficially cited as the reason for banning the sale of stick solder containing cadmium.

I don;t see it as nearly so much of a grey area a SOD, you could cite a dozen scenarios of how it might be but personally I would only be concerned if the legislation said it was illegal to put cadmium bearing solder on the market or any item known to contain traces of it.

[Phil H1Participant @philh196021]

I notice that lead solder is getting more difficult too. So following the logic on this thread, not only would the boiler be a problem but all the tank work and running boards too.

Come to think of it – copper isn't that great either – it can be sort of nasty. So that means the boiler, brass and all the gunmetal parts could also be questioned. That just leaves the steel frames which might have painted years ago with paint that contains lead.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Minor point. This would not be enforced by the police. It is the responsibility of trading standards or HSE.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

HSE won't have anything to do with anything that's not workplace related. Not sure about trading standards and private sales but I really doubt they would be interested either.

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