Silver Solder Stocks

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Keith, and other interested members, I didn't put the hyperlinks up simply because there seem to be convoluted rules about such things on this site. However, putting this search term on UK ebay should find it:

Mod Edit Search phrases removed as they will take you to illegal sales.

I found the the other supplier from this Google search:

For me, the supplier came up as the third or fourth result.

Cadmium bearing Silver Solder is still available in the USA, but I didn't find anywhere that had it in stock when I was last out there in 2019. Lucas Milhaupt are a major manufacturer in the US and their HQ was on my doorstep, but their 'customer service' people turned out to worse than useless with my product specific query.

Edited By JasonB on 23/07/2021 10:25:15

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Wonder how many Muddle Ingineers who made boilers in the past have died of Cadmium poisening? Rather unfortunate that those of us with half a brain cell have to be penalised to safeguard the dipsticks.

Regards Ian.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Stueeee, Please PM Keith details of the model engineering supplier, I have sent him the e-bay link.

I did find a model supplier though not what I would call ME, more RC selling Easy-flo No2 but in the next line the uses for Silver-flo are given so who knows what you may get.

[JuddyParticipant @juddy]

Posted by Circlip on 23/07/2021 10:29:23:

Wonder how many Muddle Ingineers who made boilers in the past have died of Cadmium poisening? Rather unfortunate that those of us with half a brain cell have to be penalised to safeguard the dipsticks.

Regards Ian.

its hard to say as it is a known cause of cancer – do you know of any model engineers who have died of cancer!!

Cadmium and its compounds are highly toxic and exposure to this metal is known to cause cancer and targets the body's cardiovascular, renal, gastrointestinal, neurological, reproductive, and respiratory systems.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Like everyone else I was once very blase about using really poisonous metals, even mercury which was recognised as nasty. As for lead, cadmium, berylium, they were very useful and quite harmless. I became aware of cadmium's toxicity when villagers on the Mendips were told "on no account" to eat their home grown vegitables.

Although lead paint is better than titanium oxide paint, copper berylium makes very good springs and cadmium silver solder is easy to use I would not, now, use them.

Before I retired the banning of chrome plating was being consider because of the problems of chromic acid.

JA

Edited By JA on 23/07/2021 11:46:19

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, so here's a question that others may be interested in; what does one do with silver soldering rods that can't be identified, which may contain Cadmium? I do have a bunch of silver soldering rods that I obtained from my old place of work many years ago, before the Cadmium ban was in force, they had to be taken off site or sent with other things that didn't have any safety / material information data and no identity, which had been in the stores for many years.

Regards Nick.

[Keith HaleParticipant @keithhale68713]

Following a phone call to the supplier concerned in the Northants area, yes it's right.

42% silver cadmium bearing silver solder rod, as of 11.00am, was available.

A rod 0.7mm dia x 600 was £9.99 per rod.

Why put yourself at risk, when you can braze safely using a 55% silver, cadmium free alloy that costs £4 ish for a 1 metre length of wire or £15 for 5 rods 500mm long?

Can't see the point of telling you where to get this bargain. I suspect that it might not be available for long.

 

Edited By Keith Hale on 23/07/2021 12:21:06

[Keith HaleParticipant @keithhale68713]

Hi Nick

Contact a precious metal refiner.

Tell them the weight, anticipated silver content and the presence of cadmium.

Historically they would offer 90% of the silver value less a refining fee. Payment would be within 48 hours of analysis.

Google "Metal Refiners UK"

Keith

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I use AWA refiners for my precious metal scrap. Mine is mostly electronic but they do everything. Always had fair prices from them.

https://www.awarefiners.co.uk/precious-metals.php

Robert G8RPI.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Keith, thanks for your answer, however all I know is they are silver solder rods, no idea what the silver content is or any thing else and I haven't used any of them since I've had them, but a refiner may be an option and I'm not really bothered about their value, they were a "might come in handy" thing at the time.

Regards Nick.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Keith Hale on 23/07/2021 12:17:32:

Following a phone call to the supplier concerned in the Northants area, yes it's right.

42% silver cadmium bearing silver solder rod, as of 11.00am, was available………………….

Keith did you question the supplier about the legality of what he is selling? Would be interested in what he said.

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Posted by JasonB on 23/07/2021 13:14:28:

Posted by Keith Hale on 23/07/2021 12:17:32:

Following a phone call to the supplier concerned in the Northants area, yes it's right.

42% silver cadmium bearing silver solder rod, as of 11.00am, was available………………….

Keith did you question the supplier about the legality of what he is selling? Would be interested in what he said.

I'm presuming the answer to Jason's question is a 'yes' as the webpage with said product has been taken down.

On a broader point regarding Cadmium content, I use quite a lot of Aerospace fasteners in my hobby, these are often Cadmium plated. I also wonder at what compliance issues there may be with substituting modern silver solder on fittings etc. for aircraft where an Easy-Flow solder would have been originally specified. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's similar to the AVGAS situation where Tetra ethyl lead is present in abundance in our 'lead-free' world.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Anyone seen a warning about abusing cadmium plated bolts – heating to remove a stubborn nut / bolt etc ?

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I have a goodly stock of cadmium bearing silver solder. I only work outside and use a positive pressure breathing apparatus.I believe this is safety enough. If it isn't, then at my advanced years, I am not unduly bothered,

Andrew.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Quote (On a broader point regarding Cadmium content, I use quite a lot of Aerospace fasteners in my hobby, these are often Cadmium plated. I also wonder at what compliance issues there may be with substituting modern silver solder on fittings etc. for aircraft where an Easy-Flow solder would have been originally specified. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's similar to the AVGAS situation where Tetra ethyl lead is present in abundance in our 'lead-free' world.) End quote

I used to work in the areospace industry and I doubt very much that subtitution would be allowed by CAA or Mod.

If the aircraft was certified as airworthy and had EasiFlo 2 on it's certificate then that is what must be used.

I came across quite a bit of this in my job e.g.:

A new throttlebox was ordered for a Canberra and it turned out that the plastic handles were made by Raleigh for a kiddies tricycle. It took months to find some and then a box full turned up in an almost forgotten toyshop in Grimsby that had closed years before.

We had an order to make a new pilots seat for an ME 109, fortunately, exactly the same specification aluminium alloy was still available.

It doesn't matter that a better, modern material to a different spec might be available, if it's not covered by the airworthiness cert. then it can't be used.

Brian

 

Edited By Brian H on 23/07/2021 16:49:34

[JAParticipant @ja]

I also worked in the aerospace industry and have experience of material changes.

If a material becomes obsolete and is no longer available (such as Immaculate 5 stainless steel) a substitute has to be found. The procedure in the company I worked for (I guess it was industry wide) was that a Design Alteration Reqest would be raised and all the experts (service, design, manufacture, lab and specialists engineers) and others would study this in great depth. The DAR, which had the highest priority, was usually accompanied by a big person, usually male, responsible only to the chief engineer. He would not go away until you had agreed to the request or turned it down. Sometimes the process took a couple of weeks, sometimes months. Once the DAR was accepted the part would be re-standardized. This cost a lot of money and there were always customers waiting.

This was done for all changes, not just materials.

JA

Edited By JA on 23/07/2021 18:03:39

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Certain industries can still use the Cad bearing solders, aerospace being one of them. Not sure about Cad plated bolts but Robert did mention their ban in another thread this week.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

During WW2, Dad was a design draughtsman at Heston Aircraft. One of his jobs was designing repair schemes to beat up aircraft. No higher authority needed – it was war! Besides bullet and shrapnel damage, one of the other major causes of damage was fretting of structures from wiring looms. The loom would be in tact and the metal component sawn through !

Bob

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Aerospace has got some aleviation from the bans on cadmium, hexavalent chrome and lead, but we are on borrowed time. These are not open ended. For steel fasteners etc passivated zinc plating is a fair replacement for cadmium. Chromic acid treatment of aluminum (Alodine) especically for repairs is a significant issue. There are alternatives for production but are hard to use in the field. Lead solder is slowly being replaced in new equipment designs.

Robert G8RPI
(I work in aerospace and am authorised to approve alternative parts and materals amonst other things)

[Keith HaleParticipant @keithhale68713]

Despite all this unrelated content

it is still illegal to place cadmium bearing silver solder into the UK market.

Forget the red herrings about bolts, what somebody did in the war, the product and cons of lead, chromic acid.

A Chinese, American, Norwegian, or misguided company in Kent can still be prosecuted for supplying a banned substance.

Let those who disagree set up a war chest of say £10m to fight their case. Count me out.

Keith

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, but there is still at least one in the UK on Ebay selling some and openly states that it contains Cadmium and described as good old fashioned EF. You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:53:12

Edited By JasonB on 24/07/2021 10:04:30

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:

[…]

You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

.

”You would have thought” a lot of things about ebay

MichaelG.

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:

Hi, but there is still at least one in the UK on Ebay selling some and openly states that it contains Cadmium and described as good old fashioned Easy-Flo No.1. You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:53:12

At the time of writing that's true. Apparently a crime being committed. From my experience, I can state that the product arrives with Johnson Matthey's paperwork pointing out precautions to be taken in use, the product's unsuitability for use in a food environment etc. So where is the victim here? Some people don't want to use Cadmium bearing Silver solder. Fine, don't buy it.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Stueeee on 24/07/2021 08:54:29:

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:

Hi, but there is still at least one in the UK on Ebay selling some and openly states that it contains Cadmium and described as good old fashioned Easy-Flo No.1. You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:53:12

At the time of writing that's true. Apparently a crime being committed. From my experience, I can state that the product arrives with Johnson Matthey's paperwork pointing out precautions to be taken in use, the product's unsuitability for use in a food environment etc. So where is the victim here? Some people don't want to use Cadmium bearing Silver solder. Fine, don't buy it.

The Victims are those affected by the increased levels of Cd in the environment. Particuarly water. Using Cd bearing solder (there are also soft solders with Cd fot low thermal voltage) produces oxides that are either washed away or put in rubbish to be burnt or put in landfill.

The victims are future generations.

On ebay, you can report people selling hazardous materials and illegal items.

Robert G8RPI.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I would assume that the HSE information sheet is still ‘current’ post-Brexit:

European ban
Cadmium has been banned in a range of materials, including as fillers in soldering or brazing, due to serious health effects. There are some exceptions, relating to defence, aerospace or safety-related use and anyone wishing to make use of these should consult the European legislation direct. Companies supplying consumables are aware of the ban and manufacturers have produced cadmium-free alternatives.

MichaelG.

.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/eis31.pdf

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/07/2021 09:23:56

[Author]

Posts