Old PC Linux

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 29/01/2016 09:17:53:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 28/01/2016 20:40:45:Here's a fuller comparison between Ubuntu and Mint.

I think you'll fiind that comparison is a bit out of date now.

Russell.

Hi Russell,

I'm sure you're right as it's a couple of years old. It was the most recent comparison I could find on the web (using duckduckgo). Are you able to provide a link to a more modern one?

Ta,

Dave

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 29/01/2016 19:12:29:

Hi Russell,

I'm sure you're right as it's a couple of years old. It was the most recent comparison I could find on the web (using duckduckgo). Are you able to provide a link to a more modern one?

Ta,

Dave

Hi Dave,

It's difficult to find good comparisons and usage statistics. Distrowatch is probably the most used but their method of ranking popularity is not particularly sound being based on page hits. Because most Linux distributions are free to download and install it is difficult to get real usage figures. The last time Ubuntu was top of the ranking was in 2010. Mint has been top ever since and Ubuntu is currently third.

As for ease of installing a dual boot Windows/Linux system there is no difference between Ubuntu and Mint or indeed most other distributions. They both give you the option of dual booting during the installation process.

For most users the main difference is the Unity desktop used by Ubuntu. Many people changed from Ubuntu when they swapped from the GNOME desktop to Unity (myself included). They have since introduced the possibility of switching to the KDE desktop (sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop in a terminal) but I haven't tried it on Ubuntu.

Russell

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I just had a look at the rankings. I haven't done that for a very long time. Nice to see OpenSuse well up there.

It's also good to see that Ubuntu has dropped down. Might sound like an odd comment but some web sources seem to think everybody is running Ubuntu and don't provide OpenSuse rpm's anymore. Not this is too much of a problem because OpenSuse provide them but as their aim is bug free releases the latest greatest versions of some are not always easily available. They are usually on the Build Service that several distro's also make use of. It's one click installs from there as well.

Personally I don't like the Ubuntu stable. They have hijacked the root account and I would rather su to root when needed and not use sudo. OpenSuse provides both methods. Application installation is done from the desktop via YAST or one click from web pages anyway. Or ZYPER can be used from the console. That can be useful for console work. If a command isn't installed a simple command can be used to find it and install it.

I follow the kde mailing list. There are lots of problems with some distro releases of KDE 5 however I bought a Linux mag with an OpenSuse Leap boot cd on it claiming it's rock solid. Could be too as they were easily the first people to do this with version 4. Their 4 was so good I never even bothered looking at alternative desktops. I still use KDE 3 email but I think it's time to change now. They still provide KDE PIM3 which includes Kmail for all of their releases but I suspect the maintainers will stop doing that at some point.

If people want to install OpenSuse it's a big DVD and it offers a choice of desktops and has a section for choosing what software to install directly from the DVD. Updates are automated via YAST. It's really not a good idea to use the KDE one. It's best to leave KDE updates entirely to OpenSuse. I'd guess this is why their releases have tended to be lot more stable than others especially in the early stages of KDE development.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 30/01/2016 00:01:14

Edited By Ajohnw on 30/01/2016 00:02:51

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Hi John,

I agree with you to a certain extent about root access, having been a PCLinuxOS user for some years. However in Mint, and I assume other Ubuntu derivatives, it is only the first user who has sudo priviledges so you can consider that to be a bit like the root account and create another user account for day to day use if you have security concerns. SU is also available for the first user.

Russell.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I've heard the su can cause confusion. It stands for switch user and not super user. It defaults to root if not followed by a user name. I use su to install compiled software after it's been built etc In that case sudo is a little less typing as su needs an su username to get back to my account. Sometime I want to remain in the root account usually when running things that only root can run. Sudo is a pain for that sort of thing. I handle system files with a desktop editor set to run as root. Just needs the password when it's opened. If I don't want to risk modifying them by mistake I use the same editor in user mode.

I did try Unbuntu. Might have been a year after it had started up. I spent time setting up a root account and found that even though it let me do it the account didn't work at all. I think opensuse now offers to create a root account rather than doing it automatically. I also looked briefly at Mint but at the time application wise it was a none starter. I also tried Mandriva – the fist update trashed the machine.

Ubuntu – I spent hours getting Gnome more like KDE and still didn't like it. Then tried Kubuntu and didn't like the application installation at all mainly because while it offered lots of things I didn't want those that I did want were not easy to find at all. They ran a sort of hit parade on applications. As a for instance I know I may want to compile some applications. On OpenSuse install there is a section marked development, just tick it and the needed items will be installed from the dvd – worth checking what it includes. That can be done there too as things like kernel headers might not be included automatically. The same facilities are also in YAST. It's even possible to find applications for specific things without knowing what the application is called. People moan about the size of the DVD but I think they also offer a CD sized download.

Not that I am biased of course. You bet I am. They have had their moments with upgrades but they are sorted out quickly via their forum. I've never had one but it can happen. I have managed to mess up dependencies by using a mix of unofficial repositories and the official ones – sorted out on the forum in under a 1/4 hour. The problem with the unofficial repo was providing different software while still using the same name so bits came from several rather than one. It does offer to not add repo's to the list it maintains – I'm inclined to keep them all and forget to mark them "skip".

John

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[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 29/01/2016 21:31:48:

They both give you the option of dual booting during the installation process.

… but only using Grub which is pretty basic. Moreover the Linux Mint (at least) installation will simply wipe out (without asking) any other boot manager that it finds lurking around. And boot managers such as BootitBM do so much more.

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

Posted by Ajohnw on 30/01/2016 17:14:19:

Sometime I want to remain in the root account usually when running things that only root can run. Sudo is a pain for that sort of thing.

This works very well:
sudo su

Which gives sudo the best of both worlds.

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 30/01/2016 11:49:46:

However in Mint, and I assume other Ubuntu derivatives, it is only the first user who has sudo priviledges so you can consider that to be a bit like the root account and create another user account for day to day use if you have security concerns.

Only an account with administrator privileges has access to sudo, normally this is the first user, but it can off course be changed.

Clive

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

sudo Switch User. LOL no wonder su confuses people. Anybody can use SU but if there is no user name after it then it assumes a switch to root user. There is no such person as Super User. If a user name is entered after it then it switches to that users account. If it's the person who entered it uses their own user name then it wont request a password – providing they have logged in, If it's some other user's name it will.

It's all an unbuntu ism. I assume Russell was referring to what happens when it's installed. It needs to create a root account some how or the other. Otherwise updates and all sorts of things wouldn't be possible. What they have done effectively is hijacked the root account. Personally I feel it's messy.

The reason the name root is used is because that is the owner of the root file system of all disks on the system and as such is the only user that can do anything there. This shows up if some one installs a new disk. Only root can do anything with it. If root creates a folder called say Fred and then gives Fred read write etc permissions Fred can then use the disk. So could any one else that root gives permissions to. Windows users might find some of the permission aspects odd. Applications for instance need execution permissions. The distro's installation aspects take care of this for them so no need to worry. Windows of late has this sort of thing as well anyway.

Suse did allow people to do a dual boot install and may do so now. What it did though was create a separate partition on the disk or disks for all of the Linux stuff. It would grab as much disk as it could and hardly leave any for windows. People could change the size of the partition it suggested though so no problem if people know what a partition is.

Windows will allow dual booting too – or did. There should be instructions about on the web. That would avoid using the usual Linux boot application – GRUB.

The best way for people to try Linux if they want to keep windows is to install virtualbox and then install linux in that. There are other virtual management packages kicking about but this is the easiest to use. I did this initially. The desktop can show both Linux and windows windows at the same time and the mouse can be used freely between them. I did this pre Virtualbox and used one called Vmware. Since then I have used VB from time to time to try out various Linux distro's. It's pretty painless and runs at more or less the same speed as it would running natively.

Or of course just try a bootable cd,dvd or mem stick. Things will run quicker in VB though and there is no need to reboot.

I've been thinking of installing XP in VB to take care of certain firmware upgrades but may as well use my son's or wife's mac. More and more people are switching to mac. That doesn't really surprise me.

John

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[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

An update.

#2 son finally sorted me out. We've actually installed Mint on an old laptop, which had a better spec than the really old PC, as it was easier at the time. We've done it so that it boots off the USB stick in linux, or in XP if no stick. I'm impressed so far, all I have to do now is workout how Wine works. no not the stuff that makes you squiffy, I'm an expert on that, but how to run windose programs on linux. There seems to be plenty of help out ther, if I get stuck I'll shout. At this rate I'll be dumping XP.

Thanks for all the help chaps

[Roger Provins 2Participant @rogerprovins2]

As there's a Linux alternative to most Windows programs what will you want to run in Wine?

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Running things with wine is a bit of a mixed bag. If you want to try that playwithlinux might be a good idea as it will install wine along with other things that you might need with it and probably helps install programs too.

Q4wine is good too, Another called Swine is pretty crap. I sometimes install the only windows program I ever use in a sort of none standard place. Q4wine allows the directory it's run from to be specified. It's an optical design package. A rather old one as the newer free versions are much more crippled. There aren't any Linux equivalents. A problem with Linux. The people who write the code do it because the want it. Most of the people who work on wine are interested in running windows games. The usual problem with wine and windows programs is just what dll's it needs to run. That can be right pain to sort out as it usually needs guesswork.

A better option really is to mention the windows program you want to run. There really are many that will have Linux equivalents.

John

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[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Just a word of warning about using Wine. Don't bother asking questions on the Linux forums – you are likely to get chewed up by the Linux fanboys who cannot conceive that anyone might want to contaminate their favourite OS with anything Windows based. How do I know? I have been on and asked for help, and even after explaining my reasoning, I still got chewed up.

Just for the record, my reasoning is this:

I have spent a goodly part of 25 years learning about DOS & the various incarnations of Windows from 3.0 to XP along with the Windows based programs. I doubt very much that I have a further 25 years of life left in which to learn about Linux and it's programs. (In fact, I hope for another 10 years, 15 years, and I will count myself lucky, and 20, well, I simply cannot see it.) Therefore, as I have managed, if I can get DOS & Windows based programs running via Wine in Linux, then that achieves the immediate objective of getting up and running in Linux without having to spend an inordinate amount of what life I have left in learning how to use Linux based substitute programs.

Regards,

Peter g. Shaw

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Had a think, and one of the things I'm likely to want to run is a CAD program so I can look at dwgs in the workshop and take dimensions off them. I doubt I'll want to draw anything, but if it has the functionality to take dimensions I suspec it will draw. I use Draftsite, and they do a linux versuon, so I'll have to do some digging on hardware requirements. I also want to listen to the wireless (catch up), looks like I download something alled RythmBox. Everything else (word processor etc on Libre Office) seems to be available, so I'll hang fire on wine for the time being.

Thanks again.

Edited By duncan webster on 07/02/2016 23:15:00

Edited By duncan webster on 07/02/2016 23:15:51

Edited By duncan webster on 07/02/2016 23:17:16

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

What Linux forum ? and what program? The latter particularly. I really am curious.

There are generally 2 forums that are the best ones to use. The forum of what ever distro is being used but some are better than others. People who ask anything on Debian for instance some times do get bad responses. I searched opensuse forums for wine and found 300 posts. Anyone who answered in a silly fashion would be chucked off. I'd guess Ubuntu is the same.

The other is linux questions org. That one would probably be more why not use so and so instead.

The place to ask specifically about wine is winehq. The usual response is have you installed the latest version. More help may or may not follow.It depends on what you want to run and if anyone is interested in sorting it out. On that score there is a video on youtube called why linux stinks. It's interesting and explains the problem well.

Personally i have several dos level os's under my belt and have no interest what so ever in picking up BASH. However all of them can do similar things so I use google as needed when and if I need to. Doesn't happen very often. Last time I wanted to check which partitions where being written to. My machine uses a flash disk and hard drives and I don't want to write to it other than for software updates as writing is what wears them out. BASH being BASH totally OTT I thought that it could probably do this and google came up with how in under 10mins

I really would be curious to know what windows programs you feel you must run Peter.

Oh the video might be called why linux is crap. Not sure.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 07/02/2016 23:24:10

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by duncan webster on 07/02/2016 23:10:33:

I use Draftsite, and they do a linux versuon, so I'll have to do some digging on hardware requirements. I also want to listen to the wireless (catch up), looks like I download something alled RythmBox.

The latest Linux version of Draftsight has an annoying bug and Solidworks don't seem to be interested in fixing it. The mouse responds very slowly in the graphical area making it virtually unusable however it works fine on a laptop using the touchpad. If you launch the program without the mouse plugged in and then plug the mouse in it works fine! There are a number of other free CAD programs for Linux but I find Draftsight easiest to use as it is very close to the version of Autocad I used to use before retirement.

I haven't tried Rythmbox but use http://www.rad.io for listening to the BBC in France and of course there is http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio.

I do use a few Windows programs in Wine and find that most run OK.

Russell

[will hawkesParticipant @willhawkes78155]

linux mint distro ubuntu kde netbook vista yast zyper kmail grub sudo bootitbm root lol vb wine , have i woken up in a strange world or died and gone to the place that my mother warned me about years ago,all of these things are on one page of my new to me computer,it is a used one that i am informed has windows fitted inside it should i take it back or has it been attacked with some strange virus, what does it all mean ,to a guy like me who works in imperial measurements on machines with manual controls repairing vintage motorcycles nothing , and as a young engineer of only 72 should i learn a new language, or just retire to my big workshop lock the door and forget that i strayed into the future , i am sure i am not alone in thinking this , will.

[Roger Provins 2Participant @rogerprovins2]

Will,

Unix, from which Linux is derived has been around since the late 1970's when you were still a young man. So it's not so much something new as that something passed by you unnoticed

Rog

[Bob Unitt 1Participant @bobunitt1]

Posted by duncan webster on 07/02/2016 23:10:33: I also want to listen to the wireless (catch up), looks like I download something alled RythmBox.

You can just use an ordinary browser for this – I have a last-century* laptop in the workshop on which I listen to both live internet radio and catch-up, running firefox under Mint 17.

* last millenium, come to think of it

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Have a look ar LibreCAD if Draftsight has too many problems. It will open and save several type of drawing files. For 3D FreeCAD is looking to be the best bet. I am playing around with SketchUp under wine. Not working fully so far so I am awaiting a bug fix on PlayWithLinux as it allows a number of wine settings to be changed easily. To be honest though as I find out how various things are done with SketchUp I feel it's cranky and bugged. The other problem is that it comes as a trial of the £300+ version and stays like that for 3 months. No idea what remains after that.

If I listen to the radio I use VLC. It's a media player and plays media and video too. Radio is a text file with the url's in it or typed in directly. It will remember those via open recent media. Video is on odd ball on Linux as many of the codecs are proprietary. How disto's support them varies. VLC comes able to support the lot. It can do all sorts of things. I keep meaning to see if it can be used to play flash in web browsers.

PDF's can be read using Adobe as they maintain a Linux version. The Linux one that comes with KDE is very slow when scanned books are flicked through so I generally use a reader called Foxit reader. It's free, fast and small. They do a windows version too.

I switched to laser printers a long time ago as we didn't print that often and I was fed up with them blocking up. Colour lasers. They do work out cheaper per print even given the cost of the toners. I always buy one that supports Linux directly so that there is no problems obtaining drivers. I'm not sure how many printers are supported now but in the distant past this could be a problem for some especially if they wanted the latest greatest. I understand this has improved a lot of late – people at HP for instance writing drivers in their spare time for instance. My opensuse seems to have HP's device manager in it some where. Probably because HP always validate Suse on their servers.

Flash has had a bit of a problem of late as Adobe haven't updated the Linux version. Google seem to have done something about this. Looks like Chrome/Chromium needs what ever they have done. Firefox queries using the older player at times but does and Opera doesn't care and just uses it. The update was down to security concerns that I suspect don't apply to Linux. Adobe have done this sort of thing in the past on their reader. Big bloated thing so I use Foxit anyway.

For photography I mainly use 2 programs. Fotoxx and RawTherapee. Both are happy working on jpg's. There are a number of others I use for panoramas/extreme perspective correct, Hugin and yet others for HDR. Also the GIMP at times. There are a series of video tutorials on Fotoxx. Others too.

Fotoxx is Linux only. It's aim is to be able to do what 95% of even pro's might want to do to shots. No single application will replace PhotoShop but a mix will.

There are all sorts kicking about including PDF editors and pdf are an option on printing to file. LibreOffice might even export them. Sometimes the easiest way to find things is google Linux what ever it does.

John

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[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

John,

See my posting on page 1 of this thread re programs I use. And below.

Why do I use them?

PaintShop Pro – because I do very little actual work of this nature, mainly "improving" slides being converted to digital, converting eg, tiff files to jpg & resizing jpg's for transmission to relatives. Hence I can't be bothered learning something new when PSP via Wine does what I want. Furthermore, a quick look at Gimp, the Linux equivalent, and it seemed so alien that I decided against it.

However, recently I discovered that later versions of PSP gave an additional facility which will be very useful to me when converting my slides to digital, and on checking with Gimp, I find that Gimp has the same, and arguably better facility so now I'm trying find my way around Gimp.

DesignCad 2000/DesignCad Pro 3D v. 17. Earlier & later CAD programs. When I first started with CAD, I used Draft Choice which worked very well for me, especially as it had a very good introduction to CAD. Unfortunately as time went on, computers & software were upgraded, and Draft Choice became more and more unreliable hence eventually I had to find an alternative. I could not get on with the then offerings from TurboCad and other CAD's were somewhat expensive. Eventually I found DesignCad 2000 going for the tremendous sum of £12.99 including P&P so I thought it worth a punt. I found it similar to Draft Choice and very easy to understand and use. It does all that I want and works well via Wine in Linux so as yet, I have no reason to change.

Masterfile Professional (Mpro). This is a DOS based database program which is very, if not extremely, reliable. I got it working under Windows XP using a 50 line x 80 column display so in display terms it was almost as good as genuine Windows based programs. With help form a separate (non-Linux) forum, I have got it working, not perfectly, but satisfactorily, using DOSemu under Linux. Again, I have no reason to change – the program does all that I want.

I have had the above programs working in Linux via Oracle's Virtual Box hosting Windows XP, but in reality, I have slowly moved away from that working method. The problem with Virtual Box is that it is a long winded method of getting things going when starting up. Also, there is a definite performance hit when using Mpro this way. There are no problems with data sharing between Linux and the individual programs – it just means setting things up to suit: in my case I used a DOS batch file.

I would just make one further point. People, especially the Linux fanboys, will suggest using dual boot, Virtual Box, or even not using Linux, indeed anything rather than sully Linux with Windows type software. Virtual Box I have mentioned above; dual booting immediately prevents one using multi-tasking and task swopping which to my mind are the two big advantages of modern computing. Not using Linux does not even warrant a reply.

Unlike some people who seem to think the computer is a toy, it is my belief that the computer is a tool to make our lives easier and therefore there should be no restrictions on how it is set up to achieve that task, hence my present set up.

Final comment to Will.

I'm the same age as you, and yes, in some respects I agree with what you are saying. But, and it's a big but, it all depends on what you want. In my case, over the last 25-30 years I've come to realise that althogh Microsoft has had some good ideas, and they have been badly treated in respect of software theft, some of their antics have left a sour taste and hence the removal of support for XP was the last straw for me. They thus pushed me into transferring to Linux and learning the new jargon. I think it's worth remembering that all that Windows is, is the engine of the computer, and that is all that Linux is, an engine, albeit a different engine, but nevertheless an engine for the computer. Think of it this way, how many cars have had different engines installed to that originally installed by the manufacturer. The programs that run on the computer are dependant on the engine, for example, you couldn't run a petrol engine on diesel (or is the other way round?), so PaintShop Pro being a Windows program will not run on Linux. Yet, just like a petrol engine can be modified to run on either LPG or petrol by using additional equipment, so PaintShop Pro can be made to run on Linux by means of a program known as Wine. If you are happy using Windows, then simply ignore Linux.

Finally, there is the not inconsiderable fact that Linux and Linux based programs are for all intents and purposes free, something which Microsoft hates.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

GIMP is one hell of a package to get into Peter. One of the problems is all of the plugins that are available for it, which ones to use and in some cases the results they produce as they will be what the person who wrote it wanted. Making use of the underlying features in GIMP is also unlikely to come easily. Much like Photoshop actually but there are some good video tutorial about. You might like to watch the Fotoxx videos. It will do more than you need but is very simple to use. Coral After Shot Pro is available for Linux. Not OS but cheap and pretty capable. Very very little tuition about on fully using it though. A couple of video's of one person.

You could try freedos for dos programs. I have used that on some very old msdos applications at times. Dosemu is another.

I haven't used virtualbox often for a long time but when it was maintained by sun and not 64bit it ran things at a native speed, hardly any difference at all.

I had to compile LibreCAD due to my version of OpenSuse being past it's support date. Given that the compiler and bits and pieces are installed it's easy. Some distro's will probably install this as a job lot. Best ask on it's forum if in doubt. Maybe sucking eggs etc on this subject but just in case as it can be handy.

First download the compressed file somewhere sensible. Right click and extract here. That will unpack the file into a directory named according to it's version number. Get in that directory and look at any readme or install text file. Often they will tell you what to type in the terminal.Then right click on that folder and select actions open terminal here. This is KDE, others are likely to be similar.

There are 2 basic ways things are compiled. If there is a .pro file in the directory that was opened it will use cmake. This is being used more and more so to compile

cmake ./whatever.pro

make

su or sudo

make install.

Or the older way

./configure

make

su or sudo

make install

Both can be followed by a make clean. It removes some files that were used to produce the final program.

The first command checks how the machine is organised and if all of the needed bits of software are there. Errors if any will be can't find so and so. So find it and install it. It really is best to restrict sources to the distro that is being used. They can be compiled from source too and if that goes without a hitch all should be ok. Another error might be that a certain part can be found but it's the wrong version – best forget installing what ever it was as fixing that may mess all sorts up. I have messed things up this way and had to go to the distro forum to get help sorting it out. It might have killed the machine all together. Really this is what distro's are for – they will provide software that will all work on the machine without upsetting each other – but if they don't provide a particular piece of software compiling your own is the only way.

Sometime the configuration part suggests a piece of software that is needed and then when it's all done suggests another. Just keep doing it but after 2 or 3 it might be best to give up.

I used microsoft software even dos to write software for the machine itself and for the systems I was working on. Going back to the early days when I found that printing tied up the machine up fully and that dos wasn't re enterant I came to the conclusion that Gates was some sort of idiot that didn't really know what he was doing. As IBM wanted him to arrange for it to do that from day one that might be the case. Lots of extremely bad practice. Things like compilers and assemblers were a bit jocular as well compared with others I have used. Later on as some aspect of the tools they provide are still lacking I do wonder if this is all down to a rather clever but savage business model. I've also watched while they have slowly but surely wrecked other software businesses who produced much better offerings. So cheesed off with this sort of thing and not wanting to use what I used at work I switched to Linux at home. Apart from BASH which I hate it's ok and hasn't caused me much in the line of difficulty for rather a long time now and I still know very few BASH commands. I've mentioned most of them, but not ls and cd and the . / 's etc.

I really should sit a type these in one go – less typo's but too many to fix on this one – probably.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 08/02/2016 17:49:16

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