New vice – is it too large?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Ross Lloyd 1 on 02/06/2018 23:46:21:

OK its going back. I spoke with Warco, they recommend a 4 inch for the WM18. I am considering a high end 4 inch. What are the brands to look at? I know Kurt and Glacern for the US market, are there alternatives for the UK?

Thanks

Edited By Ross Lloyd 1 on 02/06/2018 23:47:45

I'd be tempted to keep it as well as a smaller one unless you're on a tight budget – useful for the occasional big job.

I use Warco's DH-1 vice on a WM18 : worth a look because it has more holding options than conventional alternatives. If I was rich I'd own a pair – as NDIY suggests a matching pair of vices is a neat solution to certain job holding needs.

I'm not sure there's much advantage in buying a high-end vice. Yes they are nice to own and use plus they are difficult to break. But it won't hold work any more accurately than a Far Eastern vice, unless the Far Eastern vice is a dud.

Buying tools for business use has different rules:

• Labour is usually a businesses biggest single cost; buying tools that minimise down-time saves money. This is why they go for 'quality' but the reason doesn't apply to many hobbyists.
• A business has customers who pay for the tooling. Who pays for yours?
• A business can offset equipment costs against tax. You can't.
• Even with the advantages listed above, most businesses exist to maximise profit and they carefully consider Return on Investment, Value for Money and Fitness for Purpose before buying or hiring a machine. ROI isn't relevant to the hobbyist, but thinking what YOU understand by 'Value for Money' and 'Fit for Purpose' can be very helpful.

I emphasised the "YOU" in capitals because it's important. My advice may not suit you at all because our circumstances differ. In a crude way, you might group the hobby community thus:

• Experimental work, possibly including electronics, scientific, and proof of concept work.
• Developing skills, having an interest, keeping one's hand in, pottering about etc. Making novelties and swarf allowed.
• Car Restoration, Motor bikes etc.
• Clockmaking, Locomotives, Pens, Traction Engines, Steam Punk
• Maintenance of farm machinery, heritage railway work etc.
• Professional and Semi-professional engineering
• The pleasure of owning fine machinery, or, the pleasure of celebrating traditional skills and equipment.

Which group you are in, even though the definitions are very blurred, makes a big difference.   If you've spent 50 years hankering after an Imperial Myford when you retire, and all your mates down the club love 'em, then a Chinese Metric mini-lathe is unlikely to scratch your itch.  Likewise elderly Myford fans may not know much about CNC. Whenever anyone offers advice, try to find out where they're coming from before accepting their priorities.    

Space, time and money squat on most ambitions, and it pays to keep it real. In my case (experimental pottering), I'd snap up a cheap second-hand Kurt in good nick in a flash. But I've no justification for buying a new one, and there are lots of other toys competing for my money. For example, unlike an expensive vice, fitting a DRO  massively improves a milling machine.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 03/06/2018 11:03:44

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 03/06/2018 11:06:05

[Anonymous]

Posted by JasonB on 03/06/2018 10:10:17:

Rather depends on which Kurt you go went for

The cheapest one, which is not the smallest one in the range. Mine will hold 8.8" between the jaws and more, albeit with less holding force, if the jaws are on the outside faces. It's about right for the Bridgeport, although possibly a little large for the CNC mill, but I can put up with that.

I don't know about Glacern, but Kurt have UK distributors; fortunately one of them was about 15 miles from me.

Andrew

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 31/05/2018 18:45:20:

It is a bit on the large size, but remember, you can hold small stuff in a big vice, but big stuff won't go in a small one.

The only 'down side' might be if you need to use in in conditions where the length (or height etc) gets in the way.

Regards, Tim

PS What do I know anyway?

Tim’s right. The height may be a problem but as said just remove the swivel base. Nice looking vice by the way, I have an older Soba and it’s proved to be very good so far.

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 03/06/2018 10:53:30:

I'm not sure there's much advantage in buying a high-end vice. Yes they are nice to own and use plus they are difficult to break. But it won't hold work any more accurately than a Far Eastern vice, unless the Far Eastern vice is a dud.

………….

For example, unlike an expensive vice, fitting a DRO massively improves a milling machine.

SoD: I enjoy reading your well constructed posts; although I don't always agree with some of the content.

I'd be interested to know if you can justify the first statement above? A big advantage of a quality vice is that parameters are guaranteed. For instance the bed height of the Kurt is spec'd as 2.875" ±0.0005". That would make it dead easy to use two vices, bought at random, in parallel; not sure that would be true of some other makes. Kurt also list holding force versus handle torque; important if you're taking heavy cuts. I'm idle and I like things right first time without having to faff around. With a quality vice I know work holding is repeatable and accurate. That certainly wasn't the case with my previous no-name, but probably UK made, industrial vice.

There's one item missing off your list of business buying; quality tools should mean right first time without faffing about so time and labour saving.

I'd agree that adding a DRO greatly improves a mill; it's the best single accessory I've bought. Albeit again industrial quality. If you can't trust the DRO then it's worse than useless. But I'd say a quality vice is also a great addition; I simply don't have to worry about machining parts square and flat.

Andrew

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 03/06/2018 10:53:30:

Posted by Ross Lloyd 1 on 02/06/2018 23:46:21:

OK its going back. I spoke with Warco, they recommend a 4 inch for the WM18. I am considering a high end 4 inch. What are the brands to look at? I know Kurt and Glacern for the US market, are there alternatives for the UK?

Thanks

Edited By Ross Lloyd 1 on 02/06/2018 23:47:45

I'd be tempted to keep it as well as a smaller one unless you're on a tight budget – useful for the occasional big job.

I use Warco's DH-1 vice on a WM18 : worth a look because it has more holding options than conventional alternatives. If I was rich I'd own a pair – as NDIY suggests a matching pair of vices is a neat solution to certain job holding needs.

I'm not sure there's much advantage in buying a high-end vice. Yes they are nice to own and use plus they are difficult to break. But it won't hold work any more accurately than a Far Eastern vice, unless the Far Eastern vice is a dud.

Buying tools for business use has different rules:

• Labour is usually a businesses biggest single cost; buying tools that minimise down-time saves money. This is why they go for 'quality' but the reason doesn't apply to many hobbyists.
• A business has customers who pay for the tooling. Who pays for yours?
• A business can offset equipment costs against tax. You can't.
• Even with the advantages listed above, most businesses exist to maximise profit and they carefully consider Return on Investment, Value for Money and Fitness for Purpose before buying or hiring a machine. ROI isn't relevant to the hobbyist, but thinking what YOU understand by 'Value for Money' and 'Fit for Purpose' can be very helpful.

I emphasised the "YOU" in capitals because it's important. My advice may not suit you at all because our circumstances differ. In a crude way, you might group the hobby community thus:

• Experimental work, possibly including electronics, scientific, and proof of concept work.
• Developing skills, having an interest, keeping one's hand in, pottering about etc. Making novelties and swarf allowed.
• Car Restoration, Motor bikes etc.
• Clockmaking, Locomotives, Pens, Traction Engines, Steam Punk
• Maintenance of farm machinery, heritage railway work etc.
• Professional and Semi-professional engineering
• The pleasure of owning fine machinery, or, the pleasure of celebrating traditional skills and equipment.

Which group you are in, even though the definitions are very blurred, makes a big difference. If you've spent 50 years hankering after an Imperial Myford when you retire, and all your mates down the club love 'em, then a Chinese Metric mini-lathe is unlikely to scratch your itch. Likewise elderly Myford fans may not know much about CNC. Whenever anyone offers advice, try to find out where they're coming from before accepting their priorities.

Space, time and money squat on most ambitions, and it pays to keep it real. In my case (experimental pottering), I'd snap up a cheap second-hand Kurt in good nick in a flash. But I've no justification for buying a new one, and there are lots of other toys competing for my money. For example, unlike an expensive vice, fitting a DRO massively improves a milling machine.

Dave

Agreed Dave. As said before the clue is in the title – Model Engineer. I suspect most of us on here are hobbyists aren’t we?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 03/06/2018 12:18:53:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 03/06/2018 10:53:30:

I'm not sure there's much advantage in buying a high-end vice. Yes they are nice to own and use plus they are difficult to break. But it won't hold work any more accurately than a Far Eastern vice, unless the Far Eastern vice is a dud.

………….Copy

For example, unlike an expensive vice, fitting a DRO massively improves a milling machine.

SoD: I enjoy reading your well constructed posts; although I don't always agree with some of the content.

I'd be interested to know if you can justify the first statement above? A big advantage of a quality vice is that parameters are guaranteed. For instance the bed height of the Kurt is spec'd as 2.875" ±0.0005". …

Andrew

Very kind of you to say my posts are 'well constructed'! Truth is it's rare for me to be 100% on target even if I've got the facts right and managed to understand them. As there's often a gap between what I typed and what I meant I'm always happy to have blunders put right and points clarified.

In this one I'm trying to say that buying tools isn't a 'one size fits all' game. From personal experience I can justify the ' it won't hold work any more accurately than a Far Eastern vice', but then I'm at the 'potter, learn and experiment' end of the game. Although I aspire to accurate, fast efficient working and a good finish, they're not my main drivers. I'm prepared to fiddle with an inexpenive vice, the thing only has to be moderately good. (Avoid very cheap vices.) I think you're in the 'Semi-professional/Professional Group', and are far more likely to make sensible use of of high-end gear than me and my kind. If you own a Kurt, it's with good reason.

Decent tools certainly make it easier to do good work quickly and I'm not knocking them. It's just that excellent results can be got from surprisingly little if you have time and skill. It's amazing what people can do with hammers, cold-chisels and filing. It worries me slightly that some feel they need expensive tool-room quality kit when they'd be better off getting stuck in at the cheapo end. Experience is a better way of learning than throwing money at sexy tools.

Actually I don't have strong opinions about the other bloke's workshop. I know a chap who enjoys restoring classic cars. His tools are a ramshackle collection of old and new, including nasty, and he tends to be untidy. What he does with them is impressive. I know another chap with a newish Harley. His beautiful workshop is full of Snap On and similar, and he spends a lot of time polishing chrome rather than using it. He's perfectly capable of stripping the bike if he wants to and sometimes does. Although they're both excellent hobbies in their way, I prefer knocking metal about to no particular purpose in my pig-pen. Not joking, I'm too ashamed to publish a photo of it.

Dave

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 03/06/2018 12:18:53:

SoD: I enjoy reading your well constructed posts; although I don't always agree with some of the content.

I'd be interested to know if you can justify the first statement above? A big advantage of a quality vice is that parameters are guaranteed. For instance the bed height of the Kurt is spec'd as 2.875" ±0.0005". That would make it dead easy to use two vices, bought at random, in parallel; not sure that would be true of some other makes.

My two no-name 6" vices have beds the same and level to better than half a thou. All the fixed and moving jaw bodies are as well. How? Well, I got this thing called a milling machine and made them so. At the same time I cleaned up the 'holding down tapers' that pull the jaws down when tightening them and turned new hemispheres from 5/8" bearing balls.

Edited By Mark Rand on 04/06/2018 09:26:18

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 03/06/2018 14:02:07:

I think you're in the 'Semi-professional/Professional Group', and are far more likely to make sensible use of of high-end gear than me and my kind. If you own a Kurt, it's with good reason.

Decent tools certainly make it easier to do good work quickly and I'm not knocking them. It's just that excellent results can be got from surprisingly little if you have time and skill. It's amazing what people can do with hammers, cold-chisels and filing. It worries me slightly that some feel they need expensive tool-room quality kit when they'd be better off getting stuck in at the cheapo end. Experience is a better way of learning than throwing money at sexy tools.

Correct, I'm a professional engineer, albeit biased towards electronics and signal processing. Although after a disagreement with someone on this forum regarding the Fast Fourier Transform I try and stay out of the electronics threads; too many "experts"! I'm not a professional machinist, in the sense that I did a apprenticeship, but I aspire to the skills taught. But I suppose I'm semi-professional in that I earn some of my living from machining. A lot of what I machine for work is onsies and twosies mostly on short timescales, so I can't afford to mess up because my equipment isn't up to scratch.

One can gain experience just as well using nice kit as you can from lower quality. It might even be easier, as you're less likely to come up against deficiencies in the kit. Of course they can be overcome, to some extent, by experience; but if you don't have the experience to start with……………

I'm old enough to have acquired tha basic hand skills, and I still use them as needed. I've even been known to bodge with the best of them on occasion. What I don't have is time, so I try and use whatever technique will get the results I want in the shortest time. Possibly that's where I differ from some forum members in that for me machining is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Apart from the CNC mill all my machine tools, and many of the accessories are secondhand, mostly ex-industrial. That's deliberate in that I run my machines pretty hard and I expect them to just keep going, and more importantly I'm building relatively large engines.

Andrew

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 04/06/2018 10:58:34

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by mark costello 1 on 01/06/2018 18:44:04:

Does this mill make My vise look too big?

LOL!

[Author]

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