MOT – am I being taken for a ride?

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Thanks for replies which, on balance, seem to support my suspicion that they mucked something up and aren't giving me the full story. The garage (the only 'serious' garage in my small town) has served me well over the last 20 years or so, but when I asked the receptionist when they could look at it again she said they had only two mechanics working due to hols &c so the best she could offer was 10 days hence. I suspect that these two guys have been under some pressure to get jobs done quickly and I didn't recognise either – quite youthful so not long-timers.

I'll just bite the bullet and pay up to get it fixed I suppose. With luck the boss (who is a reasonable chap) will be back by then. Could threaten to tell the tale on local Facebook, but I don't like confrontation (or social media).

The car is a 2010 Vauxhall Astra which I bought in 2013. It's basic but has been extremely reliable – apart from tyres, wiper blades, brake pads and the odd bulb or two it has sailed through MOT's hitherto. Maybe it's getting to the age when it should be replaced though.

Dave (SoD) – if you have managed to keep a BX alive for this long I can only gasp in wonder. I had three (in succession, not at the same time!) and loved them but was defeated by the cost of keeping the microbore hydraulics going. Went on to C5s, again lovely but ruinously expensive to run/maintain. Hence the Astra after I retired – basic but cheap to run.

Robin.

 

Edited By Robin Graham on 14/09/2022 23:00:16

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

The trouble with mot testers in garages is they feel pressurised by by the management to provide added income

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/09/2022 22:23:01:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/09/2022 18:56:36:

To find out it will be necessary to have the car fixed:

But if Robin wants to submit the form that I linked earlier … that’s one thing he must not do. MichaelG.

My opinion – Robin should get it fixed by someone else and get on with his life.
Forget about admin tripe like filling in forms for other admin geeks to paw over forever and make a big issue about how complicated it all is.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

You could try Citizen’s Advice for a bit of info, I think they are able to refer you to Trading Standards if appropriate.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Clive India on 15/09/2022 08:45:03:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/09/2022 22:23:01:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/09/2022 18:56:36:

To find out it will be necessary to have the car fixed:

But if Robin wants to submit the form that I linked earlier … that’s one thing he must not do. MichaelG.

My opinion – Robin should get it fixed by someone else and get on with his life.
Forget about admin tripe like filling in forms for other admin geeks to paw over forever and make a big issue about how complicated it all is.

.

I support your right to express that opinion, Clive

But if the Test Centre is ‘a bad-un’ it might do more for the common good to have them investigated.

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Clive India on 15/09/2022 08:45:03:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/09/2022 22:23:01:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/09/2022 18:56:36:

To find out it will be necessary to have the car fixed:

But if Robin wants to submit the form that I linked earlier … that’s one thing he must not do. MichaelG.

My opinion – Robin should get it fixed by someone else and get on with his life.
Forget about admin tripe like filling in forms for other admin geeks to paw over forever and make a big issue about how complicated it all is.

One of my few pleasures is telling my children "welcome to being a proper grown-up"! Having passed the fun stage of young adulthood they're having to deal with responsibilities clouded by wobbly health, earning a living, family issues, other people underperforming, mortgages, repairs, rapidly rising inflation and bills, bills, bills!

Michael pointing out this problem has a Catch-22 dimension is just another pin-prick in the miserable world of motoring hassle!

So I rather agree with with Clive, because in Duffer-land:

1. If the cause is clearly wrongdoing, I usually pursue the wrong doer on principle. All that is necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing. But!!!
2. I don't start fights unless the evidence is solid, the cost to me is proportionate, and I have a good chance of winning. I avoid conflict where the risk and cost of losing is high, emotionally or in money. At the end of the day, it's business.

Robin's evidence against the garage is suggestive but not conclusive. Nor have they attempted to profit from the situation, which is the usual con-trick – making money from unnecessary repair work. Further, it's necessary to understand the garage's terms and conditions, and I quoted an example which says: Your use of the Service is at your sole risk. The complaint may be built on sand when it comes to liability.

My analysis:

1. The cause is not clearly wrongdoing
2. The evidence isn't solid
3. Depending on the contract agreed between Robin and the garage there may be no case in law. (What are the garage's Terms and Conditions)
4. If the garage reject the claim, the cost and hassle of pursuing them could easily exceed the cost of the repair, and the chance of winning is moderate at best.

This list of negatives suggests to me that a subtle approach is required, if at all.

If I were Robin, I wouldn't invest emotionally in this. If I proceeded at all, I'd lean on the garage's desire to keep customers happy rather than attack with all guns blazing. Probably send a letter asking for a personal interview with the manager, explaining why I'm unhappy and asking them to rectify the situation. Writing and eyeballs are complementary ways of applying pressure and more powerful in combination!

Before the interview, I'd think carefully about what I was going to say, probably taking the line that I'm Mr Reasonable, but all my friends agree I've been hard done by, that a dispute might damage their reputation, and will certainly cause them cost and hassle!

I'd also think carefully about how to handle all their likely responses, which could be anything between abject surrender and thrown out by a gorilla with a big spanner. A compromise offer is quite likely, such as you pay for the parts, we pay for the labour. A compromise would appeal strongly to me.

So I'd schmooze rather than explode and retreat in the event of stiff resistance. Retreat because I don't think this one is worth starting a war over! Dunno about Robin, but I've got better things to do with my time than get emotionally entangled in a row over a defective car, especially if the garage are determined to put up a fight. If they decide to resist, remember a bigger business will have considerable experience of dealing with disgruntled customers and know the ropes whilst a small garage might be difficult to deal with because it's run by a bad-tempered idiot!

Tactically in these situations, it's usually best to start soft but firm with a clear case and negotiate. Have all the facts to hand, and be prepared for rebuttals. Shouty-shouty personalities often think aggression from the outset works best, but they're naive because an unfriendly approach often scuppers any chance of compromise. However, a great deal depends on the opposition – part of the skill behind negotiation is assessing their strengths and weaknesses so that carrot and stick are applied appropriately.

Dave

[LADmachiningParticipant @ladmachining]

Robin,

Where abouts in the UK are you? If you are in Hampshire I have dealer level diagnostic equipment for Vauxhalls which can read out the ABS unit and determine the fault that is causing the light to come on. I worked for a main dealer in the late 90's / early 2000s so I am familiar with the common faults.

Which model of Astra do you have – you say 2010 but that could be either the Astra-H (Mk5, 2005-2010) or Astra-J (Mk6, 2010-2015). If your instrument panel doesn't have a temperature gauge, then it is likely an Astra-H.

From the sound of it, I would think that the intermittent ABS light coming on was due to a problem with a connection to a wheel speed sensor. During the MOT the weight of the car would have been removed on the ramp to check wheel bearings / suspension etc. This would have fully extended the suspension and may have finally broken a connection on the ABS wiring or slightly parted the connector, hence how the light is now on permanently. I cannot explain how this has affected the display in the instrument panel as this has separate fuses and is connected to a different CAN bus to receive information.

Anthony

[martin haysomParticipant @martinhaysom48469]

i am going to side with the garage with this one . they reported the an interment ABS fault most likely a fatigued wire on one of the sensors its only a mater of time before this fails completely and most likely the cause of the speedo failing. secondly at 12 years old this car would be considered as an old banger [newer than any of mine] that lacking in maintenance. ie it failed on 2 tyres and you say you know nothing about car maintenance. forget it and move on it ain't worth the stress.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

"I had a similar issue with a trusted local garage. They changed the front spring on SWMBOs Focus"

Trust the singular was a miss spelling Robert? Few years ago a main agent tried the same with me. Had strong words with the service manager about this. Spring only changed in pairs.

Regards Ian.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

O.K. ___ I merely informed Robin that an appeals process is available, and might be of interest to him.

MichaelG.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Circlip on 15/09/2022 12:27:32:

"I had a similar issue with a trusted local garage. They changed the front spring on SWMBOs Focus"

Trust the singular was a miss spelling Robert? Few years ago a main agent tried the same with me. Had strong words with the service manager about this. Springs only changed in pairs.

That's all well and good, and I would only ever change springs in pairs on my own car. But many customers will not pay for the other side unless it has broken too – it can be hard enough convincing them that driving to the garage was what wrecked the tyre as well. Even on the cars where broken springs are a fact of ownership(Fiestas, C3s, Lagunas etc), the other side isn't guaranteed to fail.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Apparently.a lot of springs break because the end coils have been left "as sheared" rather than ground to a taper, or seated on an angled face.

This arrangement places a lot of stress on the end coils and encourages failure.

When we had Renault 5s, the seats were angled and in 17 years never had a failure.

Apparently Japanese manufacturers either taper the end coils or , similarly, use angled seats. Both our Yaris did not break springs in the 12 years that we had them, unlike some of the European cars owned by friends.

"If only they were as reliable!"

Howard

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

If the boss is reasonable, have a reasonable chat with him when he gets back. It is very, very possible that there might be something loose after blower repair – should be an easy fix and he shouldn't charge. It is possible it is coincidence and parts need replacing – in which case he should charge. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt one more time and trust him to continue to be reasonable. Otherwise, you don't have a handy garage. Take this opportunity to build a relationship rather than wreck one.

And, things on old cars can break just by looking at em. Every time I fix something on my van, something else breaks. If something is 99% of the way to failure, then the mechanic tips it over that 1%, it doesn't seem fair to hold him totally responsible. 

Edited By jaCK Hobson on 15/09/2022 16:42:55

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, car electrics can be frustrating at times, but more so these days. Last year my 2010 Astra's battery gave up, one morning I went out to it, only to find that the battery was so flat that not even one dashboard light came on, let alone the courtesy light, although I had used the car the day before. So, though I was not in a red-hot hurry, I did need to use it and so I attached my charger and went and had a cup of tea and after about an hour I managed to start the car but, the radio didn't come on automatically as normal and the head-up display was completely blank, but the radio did switch on manually but still no display and none of the controls on the steering wheel worked. My first thoughts were using the battery charger without removing the cables to the car must have cooked the informant system. but the radio worked, and all the car's systems work as normal, and no fuses has blown. Having looked at the battery's magic eye, which indicated that a replacement was needed, so I got a new one, but my dilemma was that maybe if I took the old battery off and then put the new one on, the radio code might be lost, and I wouldn't be able to put the code in as those controls didn't seem to function, therefore I hooked up another old battery that would keep a voltage on the radio while changing battery's and I didn't lose the use of the radio.

I had to take it for a MOT a week or so later and I asked them their views and they suggested that there may be an internal fuse in the head-up display, but finding out how to get to it seemed an awful lot of bother, so I didn't bother about it, until about three months ago when I had nothing better to do, and so I took out the radio with a lot of caution as I still didn't want to disconnect the battery. I eventually got the head-up display out and looked inside, no internal fuse no blown components or burn PCB tracks. I then had the thought of connecting it up with the display outside its box and was going to get my multi meter to check if there was any voltage getting to the board, but just as I was about to open the door, the door light was on, and so I disconnected the display, and the door light went out, then reconnecting the display the door light was on again, and just when I was about to go and get my meter again, I noticed the display was on and switching the radio on, the radio station name was also displayed. So, everything was refitted back into place, opened the door and the display lite up as it always used too, and then switching on the ignition, the radio dually switched on and all the steering wheel controls for the radio also worked again. I replaced nothing new, repaired nothing at all, and there were no signs of any dirty connection's where the wires from the display plugged in as that is very well shrouded. My only conclusion was that because the battery was flat and there wasn't enough power to lite the display, the informant system may have remembered not to display even when full power was restored, and it reminded me of the saying "have you tried switching it off, waiting a moment and switching it back on" which most of have probably done with computers in past times. Needless to say, it is all still working just as it should.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 15/09/2022 20:29:48

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

The OP needs to talk nicely to the boss at the garage when he gets back.
As I said previously the cost of fixing a speedometer on a 12 year old Astra could be more than the car is worth.

On SWMBOs Focus only one spring was replaced. This is not an issue with modern coil springs as long as the springs were standard type and ride height is the same both sides after replacment of the broken one. Dampers (shock absorbers) are another matter. I would only ever replace those in pairs.

Robert G8RPI.

[LADmachiningParticipant @ladmachining]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 15/09/2022 20:26:34:

Hi, car electrics can be frustrating at times,

<snip>

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 15/09/2022 20:29:48

Very true. But the thing to appreciate is that newer car electrics are nothing like those of old, and there are often complicated and unseen interactions between seemingly unconnected devices that are linked together by CAN buses or other networks. Once communication errors occur on a bus due to a module being disconnected or entering a fault state, other modules which rely on information from the first one enter default states to ensure safety or a minimum level of functionality.

I expect in your case the display shut down or entered a indeterminate state due to low supply voltage. Disconnecting and refitting the multi-plug was enough to reset it. You could have safely changed the battery over without the hassle of maintaining the supply voltage with another source – many newer vehicles do not have a radio code as such any more. The modules are 'coded' or 'married' to each other by VIN number or other security code which is automatically checked when battery power is restored. If modules from a stolen vehicle are fitted without recoding then the codes do not match and they will not work. It needs dealer level diagnostic tools or equivalent to divorce or marry units together.

Anthony

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Anthony, those CAN bus diagrams in the Hynes manual don't help much trying to find any faults anyway, and while the one I have, says it covers to 2013 the fuse box on mine is different and there isn't one in the glove box as it says there should be, and there are a few mechanical things that are also different, their manuals are nowhere near as good as they used to be years ago.

My Vauxhall user book does say that the radio will only work in the car that it is fitted too, but on the Car Pass, it has a radio code also. I did ask at my local garage as well as other sources whether it would lose the code, but couldn't get a definite yes or no answer, so I didn't take the chance. I think you are right about disconnecting the plug resetting the system and maybe if I'd thought to plug it back in and tried it, perhaps it would have saved me from taking the display out, every day is a school day though.

Regards Nick.

[Michael CallaghanParticipant @michaelcallaghan68621]

The biggest problem with modern cars is the electrical system. Due to car manufacturers using the cambus system which links many of the cars electrical systems together a single fault in a cars radio can lead to all sorts of problems. Add on to the fact that car manufacturers no longer use good quality copper wire and one can see that a car with all todays bells and whistles is a big repair bill in the waiting. My new BMW had so many electrical faults I ended up getting my money back from the dealer. I know that this is no help too the OP. But the only path open to him is to get someone to check for any fault codes that the car my be showing.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Michael, they were kind enough to put their diagnostic fault finder on at my MOT, but the code just gave a result as no voltage to the informant system, which is probably why they thought there may have been an internal fuse somewhere in that system.

Regards Nick.

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Thanks for further discussion.

In the light of what's been said I have to retreat somewhat from my original position which was that they had obviously mucked something up and were hoping to charge me for their mistakes. It's an aged car for sure, and it's quite possible that it has what the doctors call multiple morbidities. I've always bought cars second hand and run them into the ground – invariably they have gone along fine, then the trickle of faults becomes a cataract and they go to the knacker's yard when maintaining becomes more costly than replacing. Maybe that's where I am with this one. It's been so good that I suppose some part of me hoped it would outlive me!

I'll ask the boss to explain when he gets back – he's a reasonable chap.

MichaelG – thanks for the link to the DVSA complaints procedure. I wonder how many people complain that they have been given a pass when the car should have failed! About the same as the number of A level students who write indignantly to OFSTED complaining that they have been awarded an A* I suspect.

Robin.

 

Edited By Robin Graham on 16/09/2022 00:31:19

Edited By Robin Graham on 16/09/2022 00:56:15

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Robin Graham on 16/09/2022 00:27:30:

MichaelG – thanks for the link to the DVSA complaints procedure. I wonder how many people complain that they have been given a pass when the car should have failed! About the same as the number of A level students who write indignantly to OFSTED complaining that they have been awarded an A* I suspect.

Robin.

.

Funnily enough, Robin … i was one who did [which is why I remembered the procedure and my fall at the hurdle]

A few years back, I bought an old Suzuki Vitara from a dealer in Buxton … who had issued an MOT certificate for it.

When my mechanic had a look at the vehicle, he found areas of rusted chassis that had been conveniently ‘checked and passed’ in the MOT test … I had an almighty row with the dealer, but got nowhere with DVSA, because repairs had been done on the vehicle before I submitted the form.

MichaelG.

.

Note: The dealer vigorously asserted that the then-current MOT inspection process for a chassis could only involve relatively light taps with a non-metallic hammer … none of the poking-about that might actually reveal some rust damage.

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/09/2022 06:02:40:

Posted by Robin Graham on 16/09/2022 00:27:30:

MichaelG – thanks for the link to the DVSA complaints procedure. I wonder how many people complain that they have been given a pass when the car should have failed! About the same as the number of A level students who write indignantly to OFSTED complaining that they have been awarded an A* I suspect. Robin.

Funnily enough, Robin … I was one who did [which is why I remembered the procedure and my fall at the hurdle] A few years back, I bought an old Suzuki Vitara from a dealer in Buxton … who had issued an MOT certificate for it.
When my mechanic had a look at the vehicle, he found areas of rusted chassis that had been conveniently ‘checked and passed’ in the MOT test … I had an almighty row with the dealer, but got nowhere with DVSA, because repairs had been done on the vehicle before I submitted the form. MichaelG. Note: The dealer vigorously asserted that the then-current MOT inspection process for a chassis could only involve relatively light taps with a non-metallic hammer … none of the poking-about that might actually reveal some rust damage.

My opinion again Michael – you fell at the hurdle before that – and could have taken it back immediately and demanded a refund and fought hard at that point with a greater chance of success. Accepted, we can all be wise after the event and we all may have fallen into the same hole – but it is good to hear of problems so we can react better when it happens to us.

I agree with your wider point – don't fix it and then try to get justice.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/09/2022 06:02:40:Note: The dealer vigorously asserted that the then-current MOT inspection process for a chassis could only involve relatively light taps with a non-metallic hammer … none of the poking-about that might actually reveal some rust damage.

The dealer was, and is correct, and there is a specified tool to tap/scrape with LINK

Most of the MOT is a visual inspection, and no dismantling is allowed to do it. That's why you often see comments like sill covers fitted, which actually means we've welded enough of these to know they're rotten but I can't see them to fail the car. Although that doesn't really excuse serious chassis rot passing a 'favourable' test.

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

Just seen this thread and as the owner of a 2007 Astra H for just over 5 years, means I've had the same faults as the OP over the years.

Fortunately I do all my own repairs and have a multi system Scan Tool to read and reset the various system fault codes.

Going through the faults in order:-

1) Heater Blower not working

This is usually caused by :-

a) Failed (Or Partially failed) Resistor Pack , This was the fault with my blower.

b) Failed Selector Switch

c) Failed Blower Motor

Both a) and c) are accessed by removing the Glove Box, b) is accessed by removing the switch panel, so no need to interfere with the instrument cluster.

2) ABS Fault and Non functioning Speedometer (As mentioned early on in this thread, these ARE linked)

The ABS sensor is in a ring attached the wheel hub and senses something in the Wheel Bearing.The wiring connectors all have Mechanical interlocks so unlikely to work loose (actually a pain to get undone). Corrosion of the Driveshaft CV joint outer, or of the Wheel Hub housing are the usual cause of failure. As the sensor wiring passes very close to the CV joint, the rust flakes can damage the wiring or sensor.

Although the sensor ring can be sourced online, the wheel hub and bearing has to be removed to fit, so although more expensive and as most motor factors don't carry the sensor in stock, the whole hub is replaced.

The Speedometer uses the Nearside ABS Sensor for it's speed information, so in all probability this is the one that has finally failed.

Hope this helps.

Nick

P.s. Just finished changing BOTH front springs after one was found broken on Mondays MOT.

Edited By Nick Hughes on 16/09/2022 10:34:05

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for sharing that, Nicholas

… it’s water under the bridge, but do you happen to know if there is a specified procedure for using that radiused scraper at the end of the handle ?

MichaelG.

[Author]

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