Mini Mill belt drive conversion

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Having unsuccessfully tried to search the forum for help with this subject, I've decided to start a fresh thread.

I have an Amadeal XJ12-300 mill (Sieg X2 clone-ish)and am going to make a belt drive conversion kit. I'm not going to take the easy route and get one from the USA, the postage costs are too prohibitive, so I'm going to make one to my own design, albeit based on the plans which are readily available on the internet. My main problem is sourcing suitable belt. The kits use a Gates Truflex 0130 v-belt. I've got no chance finding a supplier here in France, and, it appears, you're more likely to source rocking horse manure in the UK, too. Has anybody found a supplier in the UK? I know that there are users of the belt drive in the UK – what do they do for spares?

By the way, the plans that I've seen seem to be mostly from the USA and therefore have Imperial dimensions. Anybody know a source of metric ones?

John

P.S. Yes, I have stripped the nylon gears once already and yes, I've replaced them AND I've got a second, spare set!

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

[JESParticipant @jes]

Try asking some of the Seig Mill suppliers in the uk about spares, or try http://www.otelo.fr who supply the seig in France (transmission-par-courroie)

Regards

John Stannard

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I've seen a number of belt drive conversions using round polyurethane belting. You can buy it here http://www.mp-france.com by the metre and weld it with a hot knife. Look for COURROIE DE TOUR in their catalogue.

Russell.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

John and Russell,

Thanks for the links. I'll give them a go, although my preference is for a v-belt for simplicity.

My eldest daughter flies for Virgin Atlantic, so if all else fails, I'll have to get her to get me some! Unfortunately she's in Delhi this weekend!

John

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

John and Russell,

Thanks for the links. I'll give them a go, although my preference is for a v-belt for simplicity.

My eldest daughter flies for Virgin Atlantic, so if all else fails, I'll have to get her to get me some! Unfortunately she's in Delhi this weekend!

John

[Michael Cox 1Participant @michaelcox1]

Hi John,

The agent for Gates belts in the UK is Beeline Engineering (http://www.beelineengineering.com). I have dealt with them and they have been very helpful.

I did a belt drive conversion on my Seig X1 mill and used Gates belts, see:

http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/mill-belt-drive-conversion.html

Mike

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

John,

Are you aware that Arc Euro Trade can supply metal gears which will be suitable for this machine?

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Clive FarrarParticipant @clivefarrar90441]

I have converted mine and yes the belts are very difficult to find.

A friend on another forum got mine for me from a place in Hull.

Unfortunately that is of no use as I can not remeber who.

I'll have a bit of a dig around in my records and If I can think of anything I will post again.

It is very worth doing so good luck.

regards Clive

[Keith Wardill 1Participant @keithwardill1]

John,

I have a Sieg Mill which I converted to belt drive, using the original motor – the main reason was to eliminate the risk of the plastic primary drive gear breaking (I broke two), and to reduce noise from the gear .

I found some information about making this kind of mod on an american website, but it drove directly to the main shaft, rather than the intermediate gear shaft. This also required the direction of rotation of the motor to be changed. The author claimed this gave him more than enough power. I tried this, but found it did not give me sufficent power for some purposes, but it did show that the (internal) gear reduction did not contribute a great deal of noise. The toothed pulleys and belt I used for this came from the German company Conrad, who do a fairly wide range of pulleys and belts. I was concerned about the power transmission capability, but practical experience has shown this was unfounded.

My mod was very simple, and did not require any permanent changes to the machine, which means I can restore the original configuration if necessary. The casting on top of the head which supports the motor was simply removed, and an aluminium plate supported on small spacers used instead. This plate was drilled to accept the motor, and to clear the top of the spindle. The same mounting holes were used as on the original. A small toothed pulley was bored out and fitted to the motor in place of the small primary gear, and a larger pulley fitted on the intermediate drive shaft. I selected pulleys to give me as near as possible the same ratio as the gears but still fit in the space available – there was just sufficient clearance. Some shim washers and counterboring of these pulleys were necessary to get clearances, but nothing difficult – the whole mod took less than one day to make and install. No change of motor direction is required, and the motor is retained in almost the same position as the original, and does not require offsetting to one side to allow a long belt (as I have seen since I did my mod). I also still have the slow/fast gearbox speed selection. The drive ration is not exactly as original, because there was not quite enough space to get a large enough pulley on the spindle, but is slightly higher geared – given that the mill has speed control, I still have more than enough speed range for all I have ever needed.

This has now been in steady use for about five years, and I am still on the same drive belt. (I bought two, because I was worried about it, and still have one in its packing). The machine is quite a lot quieter – I can run it for long periods without annoying myself or anyone else. ITs probably my imagination, but it aslo seems to run much more smoothly, and cuts appear to be smoother – I have't done any real testing for 'improvements' of this kind, as this was not my original concern – I can only say it is at least as good as the original configuration.

I can't remember exact prices, but if I remember correctly, the pulleys and belt cost about 20 Euros at the time (probably more now), The ally mounting plate came from my 'odds and sods' collection, as did half a dozen allen-head bolts to mount it all.

Conrad has a large website, the search facilties are better in German, but the site can be read in English – toothed belts (zahnreimen) and pulleys (zahnschieben) are at:

http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/category/SHOP_AREA_32457/Zahnriemen-Keilriemen

Conrad have an excellent mail – order service (no connection – only a very satisfied customer for more than 30 years).

I am sure these pulleys/belts could be obtained in England – maybe HPC gears in Chesterfield

There is some info on these sites:-

http://warhammer.mcc.virginia.edu/ty/7×10/vault/Mills/G8689-MiniMill/Projects-Mods/DriveBeltMod/MillBeltMod.html

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Reviews/Belt_drv/belt_drv.htm

There are links on these sites to other mill belt mods (and other mods)

 

Edited By wotsit on 01/04/2012 21:16:59

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Thanks for all the replies. I've tried the links, but they all seem to point to toothed belts, which are not what I'm after. Looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet at source in the states.

John

[Michael Cox 1Participant @michaelcox1]

Hi John,

Beeline Engineering can source any Gates belt. Their website lists many non toothed belts.

Mike

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Mike,

I've emailed beeline to see if they can help. Unfortunately, the Truflex line doesn't feature on their web site. I'll wait and see what they say. Luckily, they aren't very far away from relatives in St. Albans, where we visit from time to time, so I might even be able to pick up a couple next time I'm over.

John

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Interesting thread this one. Has anyone tried a similar conversion on a Warco WM14?

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

If you r going to use other than a V belt, or round, a poly V belt would be much better than a toothed belt. There was a number of years ago a series in ME on the convesion of a mill to poly V belt, this allowed extra speeds to be fitted in the same space as the origional V pullies. There is also a mod for Myford lathes, also giving extra speeds. Longer belt life, and quieter, smoother running. Ian S C

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

You can use the round polyurethane belting with V pulleys. There is a simlple conversion shown here.

This belting is available in France from the link I posted above at only 3 to 5 euro per metre depending on diameter. I have found M & P's service to be good.

Russell (also in France)

[PatParticipant @pat]

Hi John

I found a suitable Vee belt as a sewing machine spare in a shop that specialises in the repair of domestic sewing machines. I think it was from a Toshiba sewing machine – it is vee section with polturathane covering. All I did was take a bit of paper with the correct diameter circle drawn on it and a bit of card with the correct angle. The belt is very flexible and designed for small diameter driving pulley of similar diameter as used in the design by Hoss. Not sure about the exact profile as I worked from the belt and a pulley from a dead motor. The advantage of a vee belt is that it acts as a clutch of last resort but a HTD toothed belt should also be as silent.

I have not completed mine yet as I want to get the Z axis drive for CNC sorted first. I have in mind moving the motor to the control box side so that the ball screw can drive down the centerline of the rack.

Hope this helps – Pat

[Keith Wardill 1Participant @keithwardill1]

Hi, John,

As you say, most of the mods use a toothed belt – I am a little surprised at your reason for using a v-belt – why do you think a toothed belt drive would be any more complicated than a V-belt?

As you are seeing in this forum, although V-belts, round belts, etc are available, they are no easier to find than toothed belts. One point I found when I did my mod was that the primary drive pulley (in my case) was fairly small, to achieve the necessary 'gear' ratio – the matching toothed belts easily fitted round this pulley. I'm sure V-belts are available for small pulleys, but I suspect they are not so easily available at low cost, like toothed belts.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

I've had an email today from Beeline. They can't supply the belt themselves, but have quoted (a fairly reasonable) just over £20 for a belt to be sent direct from the USA. Delivery is quoted at 14 to 16 weeks!! I won't be taking them up on the offer, but I think I will try one of the many sewing machine shops in the area. Thanks for the idea, Pat.

John

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

The main problem with toothed belts is making the toothed pullies, other pullies are easily made on the lathe. Some sizes of V belts are available as heat joined belting same as the round stuff, heat joined flat belt is also available. Ian S C

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

I've today ordered a Singer sewing machine belt from a company in the UK. It's slightly longer than the Gates one, but otherwise is identical and, having played around with pulley sizes and spacing in a CAD program, it'll do nicely.

By the way, I chose to use a vee belt over a toothed one so that, in the event of a stall, the belt will tend to act as a clutch and slip, rather than the motor being stalled and risking a burn-out. Originally, of course, the nylon gears act in a sacrificial role in these circumstances.

John

[Keith Wardill 1Participant @keithwardill1]

Ian SC –

I would agree with you that if you have to make the toothed pulleys, then its a lot of work – However, as I noted in an earlier post on this thread, I found the belt and matching toothed pulleys for around 20 pounds sterling when I did my mod (see earlier post) – they are probably around 25 pounds nowadays. (I gave the source in my original post, so you can check if you wish). In contrast, Johns last post says (quote)…I've had an email today from Beeline. They can't supply the belt themselves, but have quoted (a fairly reasonable) just over £20 for a belt to be sent direct from the USA. Reasonable? – outrageous IMO!

My bits came from Germany (I lived there at the time), but I guess postage from Germany to UK will not be considerably greater than from the US of A.

I would also doubt that a sewing machine belt will have a long useful life (my toothed belt has been going five years now, with a hard life) – Modern sewing machine motors are typically around 100 Watts (my wifes Bernina is 90W), whereas the miller has a 450 Watt motor (actually probably a bit less than that), and I know some of these machines have been fitted with a uprated motor.

I have stalled my mill many times, (OK, no-one is perfect ), yet the belt has survived. Stalling the machine is why the original gears broke, and led to the belt drive mod. I wouldn't give you odds on a sewing machine belt lasting for long – unless you are one of these engineers who only use their machines for posed photos, with no swarf in sight .. A point to consider is that a major reason for changing to belt drive is to eliminate a gear which seems to be too weak and eventually breaks -so why use a belt which may be even weaker? and on top of that, as this thread is clearly showing, some of the suggested belts are either hard to source at all, or only available from a single source – yet toothed belts with a known performance are available from multiple sources.

Manufacturers of belts of any kind often quote the power their products are capable of transmitting, but I could not find this data for our sewing machine. I don't think it can be very high – it is made of transparent material, and clearly does not contain any fibre thread or carbon fibre or any other reinforcing medium – I'll stick to my toothed belt, that at least is intended to transmit reasonable power, and my (cheap) toothed pulleys.

[Doug CookParticipant @dougcook19358]

Just for reference

http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/

Can supply any length of any type (almost!) of belt and pulleys, not to mention bearings etc.

(usual no connection except happy customer etc etc)

B.t.w. I've just put the Arc euro trade metal gears in as replacements for the nylon ones( Amadeal xj12 300) I also changed the main bearing for the taper roller bearing (arc) the only mods being a change of spacer in the head, to keep the gears in the same place.( the upper face of the new bearing sits 1 or 2 mm lower) I used the plain section of the larger nylon gear, parted to the right length as a spacer.

The new bearing has reduced the run out from 0.10mm to 0,01 mm

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ian S C on 02/04/2012 12:31:39:

If you r going to use other than a V belt, or round, a poly V belt would be much better than a toothed belt. There was a number of years ago a series in ME on the convesion of a mill to poly V belt, this allowed extra speeds to be fitted in the same space as the origional V pullies. There is also a mod for Myford lathes, also giving extra speeds. Longer belt life, and quieter, smoother running. Ian S C

I've just skimmed through this thread, and agree wholeheartedly with Ian S C

Poly Vee belts are amazingly efficient; being very flexible [in bending] but non-stretch. They are widely used in drives as vatious as Car Alternators and Tumble Driers … a splendid piece of Production Engineering.

Perhaps the best bit is that Pulleys are very easy to make in the home workshop:

Grind the profile for a single Vee on the end of a HSS Parting Tool blank.

Mount the Tool dead square in the Lathe , just as you would for parting-off. Then plunge cut to the correct depth … Retract … Move by the "Pitch" of the Poly … and repeat as many times as you need.

A positive Depth-Stop is a great help, and you need to take care getting the Pitch right, but it really is that easy; and the required cuts are not deep.

Use a hard Aluminium Alloy for the Pulleys and the tool should stay sharp.

MichaelG.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

P.S. Yes, I have stripped the nylon gears once already and yes, I've replaced them AND I've got a second, spare set!

—

If your problem is the gears then make a new set from T6 aluminium which is very easy to machine

I replaced the smashed small cog backgear on my Drummond lathe with T6 and it has done a ton of high torque work with zero issues since being fixed

[Author]

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