Macs -V- Windows PC’s

[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello all! Good day.

I was, for more than thirty years of active life, a professional in information systems and went through almost all the specialities that make up the profession.
I was an early adopter of micro computers. I started with the Sinclair ZX Spectrum and then went through Atari, Amstrad, IBM and later by many other computers with Intel or AMD processors and, for several years in parallel with my work on mainframe and followed since 1992 on mini computers. I knew Windows in all its "incarnations" except some of the last because I'm still happy with windows XP sp2.
Although retired I keep working on developing, pro bono, for two NGOs at home and have 3 computers that run some Linux variants and 4 micro computers which runs windows XP. In none of the computers that runs windows XP I allow the ill-fated updates since they were installed around 2005.

As protection, I have installed an anti virus named Avira and an anti malware called STOPzilla (scareware!) which, when finished the license, will be replaced by MalwareBytes.

Some products on the market that promise protection use scareware (they use fear to market their product). StopZilla is an example more or less blatant and Microsoft, perhaps more subtly, uses this technique. Apart other techniques with the same effect, such as the incompatibility between files of different versions.

I am a very assiduous frequenter of WWW and never had any problem that was not due to my voluntary action.

I use (still) professional criteria to chose software to install or update.

Just out of curiosity I searched, using Google, the criteria of the combined words windows auto updates stability and found 4730000 occurrences . Searching for instability windows auto updates I found 711000000 occurrences. Interesting …

Best regards
Dias Costa

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Thank you everyone who has so far commented in this topic, I've been a bit overwhelmed with the responses to my OP to make many individual replies, apologies for any I miss,

Please folks DO READ MY ORIGINAL POST BEFORE REPLYING (Yes I'm shouting), many of you have either drifted totally away from my original request for information, or have jumped in half way down, and started getting into a Windows V Mac brawl without bothering to check the real purpose of my OP,

I have No interest whatever in XP, it's old, it's outdated, it's unsupported, even Microsoft dubbed it a 'Downgrade' option when buyers of new laptops demanded it as an option to Vista, (and who wouldn't have in hindsight)!

I was using XP when it was a BETA pre release OS, and would break it for fun to learn how it worked and to fix it, thank God I did too, because the basic principles work just as well in Vista and Win7!

I was forced to move from XP in 2006 when I had to buy a laptop for use in France, and which unfortunately had Vista loaded, that was dumped PDQ for Win7 because it was a total PIA to find drivers suitable to run XP on the laptop, I still use XP on a spare machine mainly because it's so old there are no drivers for anything else, but I am Not going to use XP for my day to day online needs, Period!

I love Windows7 and wouldn't use any other OS out of the MS stable by choice, And, as it happens, my laptop also starts as soon as I open the lid, but that isn't my issue,

I have no interest whatever in using Linux in any form for my day to day needs, that's not to say I won't play with it on a dual boot machine at some point, I've used Ubuntu and found it too much of a pain to get to grips with, it also frequently needed downloads, and when it fell over taking out my entire boot loader for windows And Linux, I quit there an then, I'm Not going back, so Please, zealots of XP and Linux of any flavour, do go on enjoying your particular platforms, but it isn't appropriate or useful to me here,

Please refer to my OP, I was asking Specifically about Macs and especially for experiences of Windows users who had migrated to it, Not Linux or XP!

Dianne, thanks for the comments and web url for the Yorkshire Mac user group, unfortunately the website is still under construction and the 'Join us' link is greyed out, but I'll keep an eye on it, got to support the home county!

Martin, you have unwittingly posted the precise reason for my OP and why I'm considering moving to a Mac, why has it taken folks so long to grasp it!

"So the concensus from this thread, seems to be that the overwhelming advantage (for a Mac user), of a Mac over a PC, is its infrequent software updates."

Now (Hopefully) you understand WHY I'm asking about Macs!

"I do still wonder how the original poster will be able to download large files such as music, video or 'apps', with such a slow internet connection – I think it's this kind of content that Apple targets for it's users".

Martin, that is for me to worry about, but actually the only large files I ever download on a regular basis are endless updates for Windows and AV products and I'm sick of it!

Nigel B, Many Many thanks for that response, at last someone who understands data capping and similar restrictions, thanks too for that web url for motorhome wifi, Brilliant, I've spent ages trawling the web for such a service and never found one, the costs will work out similar to fixed line BB, but at least I'll only be paying when I use it and not tied into a fixed term annual contract, the last people you want to give bank RIB info too are French utility companies unless forced, especially their phone networks!

Re their charges €2 per day for 100 meg's, I'm assuming that if you don't use the 100 meg's, you lose it and not carried over to another day? I must confess, the thought of having 100 meg's a day to actually use and not see it vanish into a black hole through windows would be bliss!

John

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Re their charges €2 per day for 100 meg's, I'm assuming that if you don't use the 100 meg's, you lose it and not carried over to another day?

That is my understanding having talked to the proprietor at the recent NEC Motorhome Show. Intenet access on my PAYG Virgin mobile is similar (though at £1 a day – UK only) – the charge is levied when you log on & covers data usage up to the cap up to midnight of the day you log on. I was warned that the charges for going over the cap are heavy, but the motohomewifi dongle includes a download monitor to keep track of where you are. The service is provided by an Italian company – the 100Mb daily limit is increased to 500Mb while you are in Italy. There is an option to increase the cap to 150Mb, but this costs 6 Euros a day. Top-up of credit is done over the internet, with a "transaction charge" of about 4 Euros per top-up regardless of amount. This is all spelled out on the website in the "Products – 3G & Roaming" section on the site.

I was looking for an affordable pan-European internet access solution for when we are touring abroad in the van – the only other "solutions" being proposed were to get a data Sim for every country we visit. This would be an ongoing expense, as the Sims would expire due to lack of use (usually you have to log on every 3-6 months or they die, taking any remaining credit with them). The motorhomewife arrangement requires a log-on at least once a year, which is do-able (particularly as it is useable in the UK) . I would stress that I have not yet signed up to the service, so cannot verify the quality !

HTH

Nigel B.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I was looking for an affordable pan-European internet access solution for when we are touring abroad in the van – the only other "solutions" being proposed were to get a data Sim for every country we visit. This would be an ongoing expense, as the Sims would expire due to lack of use (usually you have to log on every 3-6 months or they die, taking any remaining credit with them). The motorhomewife arrangement requires a log-on at least once a year, which is do-able (particularly as it is useable in the UK) . I would stress that I have not yet signed up to the service,

.

Nigel,

If you have a fixed internet conection with BT you can join the FON network and get free wifi access in all European countries. I regularly use it in both the UK and France.

Russell.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

On M$ updates – I am using a broadband connected PC right now, but my laptop (which I use for all the intensive stuff, photos, software writing,CAD etc.) has never been online…

May seem a bit wierd, but my Vista laptop outperforms my wife's W7 higher spec machine and was VASTLY faster than her old laptop which was the 'same' as mine. the difference was all the bloatware and auto update and virus protection and antispam…

If I need files off the net on teh laptop, I use a USB key.

I think it is worth considering having two machines, one that is locked down like this one, for the net, and one that is light and fast.

Neil

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Thanks Nigel, pretty much as I thought, but it's a better option than French 3G networks, they all have an on-going monthly charge whether PAYG or full contract, top ups are additonal, and any remaining airtime is lost completely if you don't use it regularly, Ex-Pats locally to us have had a bad time losing airtime credits on PAYG mobiles! I'll give it a whirl anyway and let you know how I get on with it!

Talking of updates again, I've just had windows flag up yet more updates to install, when I went to check the log, the total size is 127,9MB, we've only been back from France a week, and I downloaded over 100 Meg's of updates the week before we left and nearly half of that was Windows, it's beyond a joke! Try downloading that lot via dial-up on a fast becoming regular basis! If you add in antivirus and anti-malware signature updates, I'd be looking at losing 2 days data allowance using motorhome WiFi and €4 just on system security maintainance before I even went online to do what I want to actually use a computer for! it's Ludicrous!

OK, back to Macs again, I've been offered a 2011 iMac, 21.5" screen, wireless Keyboard and trackpad, Intel Core i5, 500GB HD, 4 GB Ram and poss OSX10 Lion, it's in mint condition and appears to have the remainder of a service warranty on hardware to Nov 2014, £700, it seems a good deal looking at what's on offer on eBay, but I may also get a trade-in allowance on my old Toshiba laptop, any Mac user views? Good value or average?

I've been looking closely at Macbook Pro 17" laptops too, which seem to go for £200 to £500 depending on condition, year and spec's, I'm working through which to avoid, and it appears anything around 2007/8 with an NVidia graphics chip is best avoided because of a dud batch, but some affected machines are still being given gratis repairs by Apple! anyone experienced their Macbook graphics boards going belly up?

John

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

"…anyone experienced their Macbook graphics boards going belly up?"

With thirteen Macs over 20 plus years, no!

Did have a mother board problem with the serial ports on a LC520 in 1992, the Mac dealer fixed it under warranty in two days.

With the public gallery where I was a director, we ran Macs and the dealer went out of his way to help us to forestall any problems. Getting anything out of Windows dealers for the two machines we had was like hitting one's head against the wall. Our present Mac dealer here in Totnes is extremely helpful in every way.

The only real problem we've had with Macs has been the laptop chargers, but then they do get a beating.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

If you have a fixed internet conection with BT

I'm a Virgin cable user, Russell. as my choice for broadband is either Virgin for cable (60Mb currently) or ADSL via a BT copper line (8Mb at best due to distance from the BT exchange). As Virgin are already in the area, I doubt BT will be installing their fibre optic system around here in the near future. The Virgin package is cheaper than BT,has no overt download limit (though I understand that they reserve the right to "throttle down" very heavy users), meets or exceeds the promised download speed & has been very reliable to date, so I'm not inclined to change.

Thanks for the heads-up, though. I will look further into the Fon system & see if there are alternative ways to use it.

I got around to doing a bit of "housekeeping" on the Ubuntu installation this evening – 115 days since I last did an update – downloaded 470Mb & took nearly an hour to sort itself out !

Regards,

Nigel B.

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

I run WIn7 on a Dell XPS15 (L502x) laptop. It just works. I've never had a virus problem and I've had an internet connection since 1996. I remember a download issue with Win 3.1 WfWG. Win95 had real bad installation problem. Win98SE was good, WIn XP was better. I dumped Vista. Win7 just works.

MS Downloads usually run in the background – the massive iTunes and Adobe updates are more disruptive. Java can be a bit of a nuisance. I assume the same applies to Mac?

I ill treat my machines / OS more than most.

If I had a load of money I'd buy a MAC, probably a Mac Air. Never really seen the need to part with the extra money. They are very nice machines.

[ZiggarParticipant @ziggar]

Posted by RJW on 14/11/2012 20:15:10:

OK, back to Macs again, I've been offered a 2011 iMac, 21.5" screen, wireless Keyboard and trackpad, Intel Core i5, 500GB HD, 4 GB Ram and poss OSX10 Lion, it's in mint condition and appears to have the remainder of a service warranty on hardware to Nov 2014, £700, it seems a good deal looking at what's on offer on eBay, but I may also get a trade-in allowance on my old Toshiba laptop, any Mac user views? Good value or average?

John

i would say that that is a pretty good deal there. A year old machine with 2 years of Applecare still left to run. if anything happens to it you just call the Apple helpline and they will sort it out. Even down to getting someone to pick up your machine and deliver it to the repairers and then deliver it back if need be. Or collect and replace with a new one if needed.
My 24inch iMac 2009 version developed a screen fault and was shipped off for repair then replaced with a 27inch version cos the 24inch version was no longer available. All toook place very quickly and easily. All english call centres and absolutely no hassle to me.

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Hi

That sounds a good deal, go for it if you are looking to buy.

I have a 21.5 imac 2009, just the size for a desk top, any bigger would be too big in my opinion

Reading the above posts it makes me wonder what all these MS downloads are about, I do not have them with my Mac's, just turn them on and use them.

Ian

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Ian,

Interesting that Mac updates appear to be so infrequent. The iPad and iPhone addicts around here live in constant fear of system updates to either the device or iTunes, particularly as they appear to be able to 'brick' the device if they are interrupted, unlike windows updates which can, and do, recover.

Dias,

Started on a ZX Spectrum? An amateur then – I first started on a ZX80 although teh first one I owned was a BBC A with a 32K ram upgrade.

Neil

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Hi Neil

The updates on my Mac running the latest OS are infrequent, never take more than a few mins when the are sent.

I run an ipad, iphone and macbook, never had a problem loading a download, or "bricking the device"

Could be that I am lucky, but I have to tell it as I find it in the 20 years that I have run Mac's.

Just wonder if you have used a Mac? I have used both and know which I prefer.

Sufficient to say that if you like Windows, then thats fine by me, it would be a poor world if we all liked the same things.

Regards

Ian

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Thanks Ziggar and Ian, it seemed a reasonable deal to me too, especially having since checked the cost of Applecare, I need to find out which OS it's got on it though, it may not be Lion, so maybe some room to chip the price down a bit!

I've been checking values on eBay, and there are plenty of iMacs with 20" & 21" screens for under £500 but with Intel core duo CPU's, the later iMac's (2010 onwards) with core i3 & i5 CPU's with 21", 24" & 27" seem to be anything from £500 to over £1K, a couple also have long periods of Applecare left and offering a courier service, so I'm keeping an eye on where they go!

Just found too that the later models dual boot ok into Lion and Win7, so a handy dual boot option with all the Windows stuff I've got here!

I'm a bit torn whether to go for the end of breed of 17" Macbooks though or an iMac, I don't really need the same portability if updates can be done away with, or can use a reasonable 3G connection, or even stcik with dial-up, I only bought a laptop because lugging around a hulking windows desktop, monitor and keyboard rig (note- on Win XP), was too much of a pain, and with a 6 month gap over winter, I didn't want the hassle of leaving a pc out in France with all the pain of installing gigabytes of updates on it from an external drive as soon as we arrived!

These iMacs though are a different ballgame, I recon I could shove one in a box and lug it out there just as easy as a laptop, which only sits on my desk anyway at either end unless in France and searching for WiFi in a car park!

Neil, I wish I shared your experiences with updates recovering, they've bricked my pc's a few times over the years, but thankfully they always create a restore point before installing, although on more than a few occasions I've had to run those from a rescue disk!

A sizeable percentage of windows updates are to stitch up security holes that the Black Hats have found and exploited, others are described as 'improving functionality' or 'Issues', it's great that Microsoft go to the trouble of putting these updates out on a frequent basis to keep our pc's trundling along, but how much of it is because they rush out OS's before they're fully sorted and then let the end user be the test pilots and find all the glitches, I've often felt that my pc's are Microsoft test beds because they're always calling home and sending data to Microsoft websites (check your firewall data logs), but it's at my expense, which in France on dial-up gets damned irritating And expensive, but they never offer me big discounts on software, eBay is Always cheaper!

Yesterday (14th Nov) there were 18 updates installed which took an hour, plus the following others: 1x 13th, 1x 5th, 1x 2nd, 1x 31st Oct, 1x 26th Oct, 4x 25th, 2x 20th, 1x 17th, 38x 16th, 1x 15th, 14x 14th, & 19x on the 11th!

I'm not going back further than that, but you get the idea, I think most windows users never look at their update logs to check just what has been installed or failed to realise how much of their bandwidth is being hogged by them!

BTW of the 38 updates on the 16th, 14 on the 14th and 19x on the 11th October, no less than 52 of those 71 update downloads were Failed updates and had to be re-downloaded, most of the failures were due to it choking my dial-up connection causing it to trip out, and despite me killing updates in windows services, and even though Windows updates were showing stopped in services, I found half a dozen web url connections to Microsoft updates in my firewall activity monitor, and each were showing downloads in megabytes of data, work that one out!!

All the time I was on-line, I was paying €1.35 an hour, and I got bugger all done of what I needed to do such as Emails, because I couldn't even get into my webmail half an hour after I'd logged into my ISP's servers!

Even with a sensibly priced 3G connection and data allowance, I'm damned if I'm going to stump up my hard earned cash to see most of it being sucked out by windows updates, we came back from France a week early, and if we'd still been out there, yesterday's 120+ meg's would have seen me bolting yet again for another freezing car park sortie to get them out of the way, a 20 mile round trip at €1.55 a litre for unleaded for which I'd use around 4 litres of fuel, €6 just to be able to get online, it's beyond a joke!

If a Mac can do away with all that crap, it'll pay for itself inside a couple of years just in savings on dial-up and WiFi hunts!

John

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Neil, in an Email dialogue I had with a Mabook seller, he told me the following:

iMac and MacBook use OSX operating systems, iPad and iPhone use iOS. While they are progressively moving togather (like OSX now using Apps like iPhone and iPad do) they are currently different systems.

I think I'm safe there if those devices are prone to being 'bricked' because I neither want or need an iPad or iPhone, I make a £20 top up last over a year on my 5 year old Virgin flip phone, which although was state of the art in it's day, now causes my nieces to cring with emarrassment whenever they clock it, (Blackberry and iPhone fans) fortunately I've never been susceptible to peer pressure!

John

[MACParticipant @mac53652]

Jeez – this will come across as rude no doubt, it's not – it's just pure exasperation!

Please just buy a Mac……some people seem incapable of making the simplest of decisions! They hold their value well, so why on earth all this buggering about? If you get a decent deal, you could get your money back in 3 months if you didn't like it. I've been in sales (cars) all my life, as has my Dad, and my Grandad – I know the average punter (very well!!) and am aware he messes about like he has 1000 years to live!

"Keeping an eye on where Macs sold on eBay go"!? Why for heaven's sake!? Good God…..have you honestly nothing better to do? You are missing out on pleasurable ownership.

I hope this guy offering you a Mac that you're about to screw to the floorboards isn't a family friend (for his sake).

Now then I've had a really boring day, so let's juice it up a little by checking my update log! Jesus. Oh, my iPhone has just informed me I have 3 app updates…….shame about the maps!

PS: I read your replies and it seems to me you just want people to tell you what you want to hear.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

The updates for my Windows 7 don't come too often, they say on them "this will only take a few seconds", that might be OK on broadband, but on dialup, maybe an hour or two, there are some little ones that only take a miniute or so. Ian S C

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I must say, I really am enjoying Windows 8 here

Martin.

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