Lister Drawings

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I must admit, I tried to understand the drawings today, while enjoying a warm bath.

I won't list what I couldn't follow or managed to figure out but I think that this should have been prepared as a single master drawing and then the details dealt with in turn from that master. Instead it looks like the drawing has evolved as each set of details is added separately – one example is that some drawings show the bevel for the valve seats, but not the drawing that says to bevel them!

It is a shame this series doesn't ahve an explanation, as noty fully understanding what is happening makes interpreting the drawings so hard, even excepting any errors.

Neil

[HobbyNutParticipant @hobbynut]

I have started making the head. I cut it from a piece of 4140 HTSR material I had. I cut it to the 50 x 55 dims. I have drilled it for valve guide assemblies, and the head studs. I machined the recess unfortunately before I drilled the head stud holes, so I have a little welding to do. I will take pics in the next day or so, as sprintcar racing is taking a lot of time right now.

I am thinking of making the valves as units, and pressing/locktiteing them in. The seats and guides could all be machined in the lathe, then assembled and tested before fitting to the head. I have some titanium 1/4" dia bolts that I am going to use as the valve material. should be interesting.

[HobbyNutParticipant @hobbynut]

Re the drawing issues.

I am "lucky" to be one who spends a lot of his days on AutoCad. I can draw and redraw to my hearts content. This is how I am progressing. I take what is printed and then draw it to see where and how it fits. I didn't for the head, as it "looked like it would work"!!

[HobbyNutParticipant @hobbynut]

Just wait till you get to the fuel pump, oil pump and injector drawings…….I dare anyone to make the parts as drawn….and get them to work, and or fit together.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It does not get any better.

Contra piston in 4462 really needs another four dimensions to be able to make the part without resorting to guess work.

Decompression bracket has a rather coarse 4x7mm pitch thread!!

And another two drawings of the head and still they don't show the holes for the above bracket

Parts being refered to by different names

[HobbyNutParticipant @hobbynut]

I saw that….and how does the handwheel and screw connect ? and has it been detailed? maybe I missed that issue. I will draw all the pieces, as I see them, and figure it out from there.I have dozens of drawings that I have done of all the parts as I have gone along. All in AutoCad 2007. I used have access to Solidworks but that job run its course.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

"Detailed" may not be the right word but we have not had a drawing for it yet. The cross hatching would suggest its solid but I suspect its in two parts – threaded rod & handwheel.

I also started to redraw it at the start of the series but gave up when it looked like every part would need additional information or an educated guess. Maybe its a quirk of vertical engines, I made one a couple of years ago and threw away all the small castings and ignored the drawings and just went by photos of the original engine to get things like the water & fuel pumps so they would work and look right.

J

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

This is the exploded view of the Original Lister Cylinder Head

[HobbyNutParticipant @hobbynut]

Thanks Ennech, that will help a lot…

Do you have an injector same way?

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

I will check

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

My Lister CS parts book does not give detail about the inside of the injector, however I round this drawing on the net, I hope that it helps.

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

This is a Gardner Injector, similar principle

[HobbyNutParticipant @hobbynut]

I am trying to figure out how the excess fuel gets to the top outlet "to overflow". This is almost exactly as George has drawn it, except that the inlet is at -90d from where this one is.

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

The fuel leaks past the piston as the injection pressure is high and there is always a clearance there.

[HobbyNutParticipant @hobbynut]

My injector. Will it work?

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

I can't quite see all the detail of your injector HobbyNut. Essentially the effective area of the injector plunger is the area of the piston minus the area of the needle where it sits on it's seating.

The top of the plunger should be at atmospheric pressure which it will be if it is connected to the leak off pipe connected to the tank.

The injection pressure (I do not know George's intended pressure) for the full size engine is 90 bars (1450psi), a relatively low figure by today's standards. The fitted load for the spring is given by multiplying the injection pressure by the effective area of the plunger.

Eric

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

Whoops! 90 bars is 1305 psi

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

How do these injectors work? I can't see what lifts the valve? Or is it activated by cylinder pressure somehow?

Neil

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Neil,

At the top of the body is a threaded cap and a lock nut inside which is a strong spring, the spring applies pressure to the needle which has been lapped into its seat sealing off the nozzle end, when the pump applies pressure to the oil this lifts the needle which over comes the spring and lifts it to allow the fuel to leak past and out of the holes in the nozzle body as a spray. depending what the engine builder requires determines the type of nozzle and how many holes that are in it to produce the spray to help run the engine.

Martin P

Edited By martin perman on 22/08/2013 21:55:58

[HobbyNutParticipant @hobbynut]

Looks like it is easier to get working than the ME one

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Thanks, so presumably it is the pump itself that determines the timing?

Neil

Oddly enough I managed to run out of diesel ina van yesterday (however the fuel pickup is arranged it didn't like a long, steep downhill). Fortunately I was only a few miles from the garage and my wife was following in the car. Equally fortunately, I had already found the priming pump on the fuel filter!

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

Yes Neil it is the pump that determines the timimg and the amount of fuel.

The spring in the injector decides the injection pressure.

Eric

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Gentlemen,

The Lister engines I have played with and working for Lucas CAV I was always led to believe that the pump has to be timed to the engine, the pump determines the amount of fuel, I know from volunteering at an engine museum in Wales that they were given an Allen diesel in kit form and when they built it they found they were missing the timing disc and had a lot of trouble trying to find the optimum timing point, bit like to advanced or retarded.

Martin P

[HobbyNutParticipant @hobbynut]

The pump is what is giving me headaches. It does not seem capable of developing any "real" pressure. With a bore of .188" and a stroke of .2" I cannot seem to get any real output of fuel.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Fuel injector pipe full size tends to be small bore thick walled, I think about 3 mm, what size of tube are you using, do you have any leakages that are stopping the pressure build up and is there air in the system.

Martin P

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