Lathe advice… I guess I will need one soon

[Jamie JonesParticipant @jamiejones42723]

As some of you know I am new to milling and engineering. And thanks to everyone for their advice so far.

I have a VM32 Variable Speed Milling Machine (with DRO) from Toolco and while I get to grips with it I know that I will at some stage soon need Laithe to complement the VM32 Mill.

I had planned on getting both a mill and Laithe with the budget I had. But I seem to have blown the whole budget on the mill and the accessories. Lol

I plan on making bits and bracket ect for Motorcycle restoration and customisation..

So what would people recommend as a suitable Laithe that would complement the mill I have and be suitable for my needs? At this stage I don't know what is the minimum spec is needed.

And what accessories and laithe tools would you suggest that will I need?

This way I can start budgeting and saving…

[Jamie JonesParticipant @jamiejones42723]

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

I simply worked out the biggest lathe that would fit in the available space, which happened to be a 5 x 22 bench lathe. Then I looked for the heaviest lathe in that class. The Sieg C6 / Chester Comet weighed in at 145Kg the heaviest I could find. Why? Most meat in the bed = equals most rigidity. Very simplistic I know, but it did work out well. Variable speed is great, but either plan to add a low speed ratio yourself or make sure the lathe comes shipped with one. My lathe will just about swallow 3/4 inch bar down the spindle hole, one inch would be a worthwhile advantage. To my lathe I've added locking to both cross slide and compound, very simple mods and I think necessary. I've also added a DRO to the tailstock quill. I've also improved the tailstock lock from a nut to a lever.

What accessories have I used? Other than face plate, 3 & 4 Jaw chucks, I bought a collet chuck for good accuracy on small diameter parts (ER32) which matched the collet chuck size for my mill. Fixed steady has had some use. tailstock chuck (=> 1 inch) regularly used. I'm not yet convinced of the value of a quick change tool post. I keep reverting to my 4-way toolpost. Tachometers are unnecessary, you very quickly get a feel for the right spindle speed / feedrate. I think an offhand grinder is indispensible as a support tool for lathe use. Most of my tools are home made.

What's my mileage? No workshop experience at all, no metalwork experience since school. I have produced a Nemett Lynx, A Stuart Victoria, the crankshaft for a Whittle V8 and am currently building a James Coombes Table Engine. I have also made a Stuart water pump. So my advice is based on that.

Steve

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

Jaimie,

Most likely it would be better and much more kind to lie to you. But your should resign yourself to the facts that you will never ever be finished buying tooling for a mill. A lathe is slightly better though. How much is your budget, and how much electrical power and room do you have?

Your mill is a fairly decent machine to start out with, and far larger than my first mill was. Motorcycle work? Leaving aside anything like engine work and cylinder reboreing etc. Then your wanting to do mostly parts replacement and that customisation, and then maybe building up to parts such as disc brakes for diameter. Single phase motors on machine tools are ok, but a real upgrade later on is using proper 3 phase equipment.. VFD's today make this more than within reach and very much worthwhile.

FWIW, your current mill probably won't be something you stick with, but it's a great learning tool, with some luck it's also a common taper like a R8 so the tooling can be transfered to a larger mill when you do upgrade. Your lathe will be exactly the same idea. You will if you stick with this upgrade to larger equipment in the future. Everyone does. So for right now if you want to buy new? I'd suggest something like a 280 V-F. It's rebadged by numerous dealers and is possibly built by Weiss In Nanjing China. There's obviously far better and larger, but this would be a good learning tool. Given some experience and knowledge, then you might then start looking at the better quality used industrial machines. That does require that experience and knowledge before you can even judge exactly what you need or want. But most tooling you'd tend to buy for something like that 280 would be useable on another machine. Tailstock tooling and the smaller MT tapers wouldn't transfer though.

But the very best advise I can offer is if you think you'll stick with machining as a hobby for even the next 10 years? Then please save your money and buy the very best industrial grade cutting tools and measuring equipment you can afford. In the long run it's the cheapest bang for the buck. There is no such thing as good cheap durable cutting tools. The much more expensive industrial tooling cut's, performs and last's far beyond the extra expense involved. And if you were to add the word accuracy, then the same can be said about metrology equipment.Think about it,if you can't measure it dependably and repeatably, then you can't build it to the required accuracy. I tried the cheap cutting tools and measuring equipment, I can't afford to buy it anymore.

Pete

[Jamie JonesParticipant @jamiejones42723]

I would agree and it would be nice to just order in the very best industrial equipment… But the reality is I can't afford that and it will never be my income provider.

any main engine boring or pro skimming will always be done by a specialist… I am looking at dealing with other less specialist tasks

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

For what your wanting to do Jamie, then right now there's no real need for industrial type machine tools. But as I said, if you stick with this it's natural and all too likely you'll end up going towards the larger more industrial equipment. It's almost impossible not to do so. I started out with a little 65 lb Emco compact 5 lathe with the rear mounted milling head. I still have that equipment, but my larger lathe is now one of those 450 lb 280 VF's, and my mill is a 3/4 sized 1100 lb Taiwan built baby Bridgeport clone. I think I could have saved a huge amount of money if I knew then what I think I know now. And my equipment choices today still would have been larger if I could support more weight in my shop. Funny enough, I just mentally added up the costs for the first time, and what that little Emco lathe and mill cost me along with just about every accessory Emco built for them amount's to just about what my larger lathe and mill cost me. I'm well within a $1,000.00 of that figure at least.

Most entry level people don't know that the actual machine tool cost is almost incidental. And the tooling unless you get into some more than larger industrial sized equipment stay's pretty much the same cost. Milling machines are a good example of this. The tooling that fit's and is used on say something like a Seig X2 type mill will also fit and can be used on a Bridgeport sized machine.Lathes are the same, so if you can possibly do it, then saving and buying the largest equipment you can will with some luck delay replacing it for larger a little longer. You need to figure out your largest diameters and lengths, maybe add 25%- 50% to that number, and that's the size of equipment you need. I can say that most new machine tools we can afford does not have a built in low enough speed. It's a bit frustrating when your trying to do larger diameter work and even carbide is burning up because you can't get a low enough rpm.That's when the larger 3 ph equipment starts to make some sense.I've never once regretted buying my 3 hp 3 ph mill. Adding a VFD just makes it really nice to use.

Pete

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Jamie,

I agree with Pete, you should be able to get along just fine with a 280 or 290 lathe. I have a 290 myself with a 3-phase motor and a VFD/inverter. It works fairly well. I have done much the same as you Pete, started with a Emco Compact 8 and ended up with a 290 lathe, the biggest I could get into my basement workshop.

Thor

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

One thing to watch with some of the lathe suppliers and the one you got the mill from is a good example is that the basic lathe may seem a bit cheaper from them but unlike the same lathe in green/yellow or cream/yellow they don't include 4-jaw, faceplate, fixed and traveling steadies in the price so you need to figure that into the equasion. Another Vote for the 280VF big bore if you can stretch that far and the latest ones have the 3-phase/VFD for better torque.

J

[Jamie JonesParticipant @jamiejones42723]

Hi thanks for the advice.. Not sure if 3phase electricity is available to me. Middle of a housing estate in rural area.

I have single phase 32 amp in the garage for the welder which might be as much as I can get. Will check with the sparky who installed that.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I would buy a 4.5 in or 5 inch centre height Boxford ,nice machine and English, I have restored a couple of 1950s/60s bikes and you do not really need a large lathe ,most restoration is new spindles ,brake hub skims,should be able to do a 6 or 7 inch brake in the Boxford(after the spokes are removed!!) make hex nuts ,bore a sprocket,long bolts for stands and footrests,bronze bushes etc etc, and get your money back if you get a bigger lathe.Though I found motorcycle restoration can get very expensive compared to restoring stationary engines or model making .

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

There is always the second hand option which could get you a better lathe than buying new, Myford, Colchester, Boxford, Harrison etc and the chances are if you look around you will get more bang for you buck.

I would not recommend a bench mounted lathe as the bench needs to be strong enough to take the weight of the machine, I found that out with my Dore Westbury milling m/c as the metal bench was bending slightly under the weight so had add support in the area of the m/c.

Single phase to three phase is not a problem as long as the motor is suitable and not too big 32amp should happily run 5Kw motor. My bigger milling machine is 3 phase with a Siemens micromaster inverter and runs fine from single phase supply.

Bob

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

Hi Jamie, don't know where about in the land you live, but if you can make it to Chester between 23rd-27th June Chester UK have got a clearance sale with up to 50% off ex demo items. I have had a DB10V for about 3 years and (touch wood) no problems so far. No connection with them, just a happy customer.

Cheers Derek.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Jamie these lathes with the built in VFD will run off a 13amp plugtop from your normal 240V supply. The vfd converts it to what the 3-phase motor needs. At the moment I think its only Warco who do these the other similar looking machines have the DC motors

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I often wonder just how some of these low cost imported machines will stand the test of time but only time will tell.

Interestingly Chinese companies still use the UK for high precision parts.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Jamie,

Few voices have spoken up for imported lathes, but don't write them off as an option – probably 50% of forum users and MEW readers have imported lathes. My mini lathe is 15 years old, greatly modified and capable of everything I need it to do.

I won't rehearse the arguments each way, but if you get the opportunity to 'try before you buy', I suggest you do so.

Neil

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 08/06/2014 11:31:00:

Interestingly Chinese companies still use the UK for high precision parts.

Yes, and vice versa

Russell.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/06/2014 17:45:14:

Jamie,

Few voices have spoken up for imported lathes,

Neil

How did you arrive at that conclusion Neil?. of the 7 suggestions before your post 5 went for the imported option. Yours brings it upto 75% in favour of Imported

J

[GaryMParticipant @garym]

I was already considering buying the Warco 250 VF later this year when I found out at Harrogate that they were now fitted with an AC motor and VFD. Makes it an even better purchase I think.

Gary

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Apologies folks, for some reason I thought only Jason was championing imported. I think I only read the tail end of the thread when catching up.

For balance I should point out that a lot of folk get on very well with British lathes too, and if I had the space (and the need for it) my lathe of choice would be a Boxford AUD

Neil

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Neil,

Funny that I have a Boxford Mk3 AUD metric and my choice would have been Colchester/Harrison gap bed may be bantam but there was the cost consideration as the Boxford only cost £750.00 so it was something silly not too.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

No body has mentioned them, but ME advertises the "Ceriani" machine tools from Italy (I think), are they any good, any use? Ian S C

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

called David?

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

One thing you might consider is to go for a lathe which has the same spindle size (taper, etc) as your mill. Then you won't need to double-up with collets, boring head, etc. This will keep the cost down, and the storage space.

Cheers, Tim

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I would tend to agree so MT3 or bigger if you want to use the tool holders from the mill.

A lathe with taper bigger than the mill can easily be bushed to suit but tends to rule out a Myford ML7 as that has a MT2 headstock if I am not mistaken.

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

If you are only making brackets, spacers and non critical bits for motorcycle restoration you do not have to spend hundreds of pounds on a lathe if money has to be considered.

When younger as self taught I made motor bike sprint frames, all the bits required plus outrigger bearings for the engines, fuel injectors and many other parts too numerious to mention with a well used £20 Pool Special lathe that needed some TLC plus some welding bottles.

There are many old hobby type lathes about 4 inch centre selling very cheap sometimes with tools etc. that are suitable for basic turning.

When finances allow you can buy a better class of lathe if required.

Paul

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