Jacobs arbor marking

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

No mention right now as my lathe is presently out of action waiting for a couple of new parts….and I bought a second hand Albrecht chuck that requires this arbor….

As I mentioned earlier Jacobs have confirmed that they stopped putting their name on in 2012…so I now have no reason to doubt it’s authenticity…..but as soon as it’s up and running…I’ll be back..

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

That’s the seller I bought it from….He said he’s been trading for 15 years and that Jacobs stopped putting their name some time ago…which they have confirmed….I asked why he didn’t send it in the container shown in the picture…he replied that he bins them as it increases postage costs…🤔

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 26/02/2019 17:40:03:

Going back to the original post, there's no mention of how well the arbor works. Which is what really matters.

You're forgetting how long it can maintain that initial standard and its life span generally. I could make an accurate drill arbor out of aluminium that would be true and accurate but I don't rate it's longevity.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/02/2019 19:16:31:

Note the red text in the description, here: **LINK**

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JACOBS-DRILL-CHUCK-ARBOR-SPINDLE-MT2-x-6JT-NEW-FROM-THE-UK-/251657690467

MichaelG.

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Edit: … so we must assume that the seller is using an old stock-image.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/02/2019 19:21:32

Call me old fashioned but I like to get what I see otherwise I wouldn't necessarily choose that particular item. It's arguably false advertising.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Hall 7 on 26/02/2019 19:30:37:

That’s the seller I bought it from….He said he’s been trading for 15 years and that Jacobs stopped putting their name some time ago…which they have confirmed….I asked why he didn’t send it in the container shown in the picture…he replied that he bins them as it increases postage costs…🤔

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Parcel Size; Parcel Weight; or … ?

MichaelG.

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PostScript: 'Condition = New'

New: A brand-new, unused, unopened and undamaged item in original retail packaging (where packaging is applicable). If the item comes direct from a manufacturer, it may be delivered in non-retail packaging, such as a plain or unprinted box or plastic bag. See the seller's listing for full details. See all condition definitions

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/02/2019 20:21:36

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Chris Trice on 26/02/2019 19:50:28:

Call me old fashioned but I like to get

Will you also be asking for the 1p

Does say in the conditions in Michael's link it may be delivered in plastic bag and not retail packaging.

Edited By JasonB on 26/02/2019 20:23:17

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Chris Trice on 26/02/2019 19:46:21:

Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 26/02/2019 17:40:03:

Going back to the original post, there's no mention of how well the arbor works. Which is what really matters.

You're forgetting how long it can maintain that initial standard and its life span generally. I could make an accurate drill arbor out of aluminium that would be true and accurate but I don't rate it's longevity.

That's a large part of how well it works.

The time spent writing the original post would have covered getting out of the box, inspecting for damage and obvious low quality, then installing it and proving it.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

This whole subject comes back to trust in a brand. One pays the extra specifically to avoid any uncertainties.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 26/02/2019 20:21:23:

Does say in the conditions in Michael's link it may be delivered in plastic bag and not retail packaging.

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Ah but … specifically "If the item comes straight from the manufacturer …"

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%96HM_GmbH#Internationalization_and_extension_of_production

Rohm have a joint venture partnership with Weida in Shangdong.

They produce products available branded as Rohm or Weida:

http://www.weidapeacock.com/plus/view-434.html

Presumably cheaper/simpler products are not marked, and it appears Weida supply a range of generic products.

Quite possibly the arbor in question is supplied both as Rohm and made available to others via the Weida side of the venture.

Neil

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Interesting. Thanks for researching it. The arbor runs true. Difficult to quantify its qualities any more than that without using it for a while. The upshot is, it's already fitted and being pressed into service.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/02/2019 23:33:06:

Quite possibly the arbor in question is supplied both as Rohm and made available to others via the Weida side of the venture.

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Forgive my mild confusion … it's a little early and I have not yet topped-up my caffeine level:

Which is 'the arbor in question' ?

• the 'Rohm' supplied to Chris, or
• the 'Jacobs' supplied to John,
• … or both ?

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

By "available to others" Neil may mean Jacobs in which case both.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 27/02/2019 07:23:43:

By "available to others" Neil may mean Jacobs in which case both.

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I do realise that, Jason …

which is why I asked Neil to clarify what he did mean by the arbor in question, rather than what he may mean.

MichaelG.

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Edit: it may, or may not, also be relevant that this search returned no results:

http://www.weidapeacock.com/plus/search.php?typeid=10&lang=en&keyword=arbor&tj_btn.x=0&tj_btn.y=0

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 27/02/2019 07:36:32

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

If Chris's drill chuck arbor is a ROHM product, it came from the same place where ARC, MSC, and some others buy from, in China. As it is a cheap generic product, the factory plans a production run of a particular quantity. It is then available for ROHM, and the rest of us to draw on, off the self with generic markings without branding, until and unless there is a specific need.

Referring to Neils link, ROHM has agreements with various chuck manufacturers. Chris's drill chuck arbor was made by 'a factory' other than WEIDA.

Although I am aware of JACOBS relations in China, I am not sure about where their arbor comes from.

Ketan at ARC.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks, Ketan

… it's always enlightening to have your perspective on such matters.

MichaelG.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Yes, thanks Ketan. Good to know my Spidey sense hasn't deserted me although a little frustrating to know I could've sourced, in this case, the identical product elsewhere for half the price.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Chris Trice on 26/02/2019 22:33:11:

This whole subject comes back to trust in a brand. One pays the extra specifically to avoid any uncertainties.

Exactly what's wanted, but that trust is often misplaced! Paying extra might get you a better product, or you might just be paying for the name on the packaging. Bling.

Brand-names are bought and sold freely, and it's unwise to take them at face value. A brand-name might indicate a place of manufacture, or a degree of quality. Or not. They most certainly aren't a guarantee, and even good names don't last for ever. The original Jacob's bit the dust in 1991, when they were taken over by Matco. The Jacob's brand was an asset, but how it was used in relation to quality was down to the newcomer. As they too have been taken over, the link back to classic Jacob's is tenuous.

Chaps who get hot under the collar about CE marks sometimes fall hook line and sinker for an old brand-name belonging to a global corporation they've never heard of! In this example, Jacobs happen to be owned by Danaher, or perhaps their spin-off Apex Tool Group, which is a joint venture with Cooper Industries. Apex own many tool brand-names including: Weller, Sata, Cleco, Lufkin, and Jacobs. Danaher have about 50 divisions including Matco, Leica Microsystems and Nobel Biocare. This network of firms are multinational, with factories in many different countries.

I'm afraid if the country of manufacture and quality are important, it's unwise to assume that a brand-name means much. The branded and generic products may be exactly the same item, the branded version might be better, or it might be inferior. Check before buying!

One advantage of buying generic is I don't worry about any of this. Usually buying unbranded from a reputable supplier, not too cheap, works out OK. When it doesn't I try again. So far the warning 'Buy cheap buy often' hasn't bitten me as a hobbyist. I would take more care buying critical tools if I depended on them for a living.

Dave

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

Totally agree..but..if someone is selling a named product….you wouldn’t be happy if you received a fake…

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/02/2019 12:57:00:

I'm afraid if the country of manufacture and quality are important, it's unwise to assume that a brand-name means much. The branded and generic products may be exactly the same item, the branded version might be better, or it might be inferior. Check before buying!

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… We could have a forum; where people post and discuss their findings, for the common good.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 27/02/2019 13:14:02

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

The problem remains that these days that if it’s not direct from the manufacturer, there’s no proof of its authenticity…

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

One would hope that the owner of a brand name associated with quality would ensure that only goods worthy of that quality were being sold under that brand name, otherwise it would be a waste of purchasing the brand name in the first place if its reputation took a nose dive and made it worthless.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/02/2019 13:54:59:

1. Cost of outsourced manufacture is higher that it could be, due to that 'badge engineering'
2. BeanCounter realises that the cost of the bought-in item could be reduced, by just taking the Vanilla version. … No harm done; it's the same product.
3. … until someone takes the next step, and the quality starts to decline.

MichaelG.

Hi Michael,

I am a little unsure about where you are coming from with reference to this topic. However, I will try to clarify with reference to ROHM sourcing for this particular product:

1. Cost of outsourcing for this generic product is cheaper for them, then producing in-house.

2. the quality of the 'vanilla version' from ROHMs source Chinese factory supplier for this product is good. However, the same product is made by many other factories in China and India, available in any packaging you like, and cheaper than this factory.

3. Regarding your point about taking the next step and quality starting to decline….. this has already started for this product, as certain buyers start to move away from this factory. For example, price increases for this product from this factory have increased by 8% ~ 15% (depending on buyers purchasing from this factory). Other 'non-volume' products from this factory have increased in costs between 15% ~ 30%… within a short time. As yet ARC has not moved away from this factory, but this factories future is uncertain, as the seriously big boys decide what their position will be.

Add to this, the main buyers are still American. They have high import duties to pay for Chinese origin goods. In light of this, some American companies have switched supplies to cheaper factories in China, as well as in India. For the buyers who have switched, some of them have switched blindly – especially to India, without any understanding for the quality as well as the consistency of the products they have ordered. So, in this instance, difficult to say what will happen.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Chris Trice on 27/02/2019 12:10:59:

Yes, thanks Ketan. Good to know my Spidey sense hasn't deserted me although a little frustrating to know I could've sourced, in this case, the identical product elsewhere for half the price.

Hi Chris,

For the ROHM product which you purchased, you got a good product. It would be difficult for you (as end user) to know if the half price product you might have purchased came from this specific factory, or a good known source. ROHM knows exactly where their product comes from, just as ARC does, for this product. So, in some ways you should be happy with your purchase rather than feel frustrated.

Ketan at ARC.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Let's put it this way. I paid 3 times what you charge for the same arbor so if it came from the same production line, I might feel some frustration.

[Author]

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