Jacobs arbor marking

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

JacobsHi, I’ve just bought a Jacobs arbor, MT2..JT1…It was sold by a reputable dealer on EBay as a genuine Jacobs…It showed a Jacobs container tube and an arbor with some writing on it…

It arrived today….but all that was stamped on it was …MT2 JT1…. No Jacobs name, and No Jacobs container, just a plastic bag with Jacobs written on it in permanent marker…

I have various other Jacobs arbors all having their name stamped or written on them..

i contacted the seller who assured me it was a genuine Jacobs and that that Jacobs hadn’t put their name on them for some years…and that he’d been trading for 15 years….he said he put the containers in the bin because they caused extra postage charges..

How can I tell if it’s genuine or a cheap copy?…It’s a small thing but with so many fake items in circulation I thought I’d investigate…thinking of contacting Jacobs..

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

You could ask where he sourced the arbor….( my guess he wont reveal)

Ask Jacobs, worth their while if there are fakes…

I just found out my MPPT controller for my solar panels is a fake…( inasmuch its not mppt but pwm…)

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

I couldn’t find Jacobs’s details… but after more searching I’ve now sent them an email…I will update when/ if I get a reply…..

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Any Jacobs arbors I have were all supplied in green boxes with full details, same Jacobs name and type eroded/printed onto the tool.
I should add I haven't bought any for some years.

Emgee

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

Exactly…maybe they’ve contracted out their production ….let’s see if I get a reply

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

It's funny this should come up now. I paid the extra on eBay from a UK dealer to buy a genuine (and advertised as) "Rohm" MT2 J2 drill arbor that arrived this morning (after a six day wait) with no markings on the plastic box or the arbor itself but the Inspector Number label that fell out is identical to the ones you find in the budget arbors from overseas. Spinning it between centres it appears well ground and concentric but I object to paying for the genuine product but getting what I suspect is what I was specifically trying to avoid that I could buy elsewhere for half the price. I'm of two minds to contact Rohm and ask if it's genuine.

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

I have one in its green box and it is stamped in a relief ring on the Morse taper "Jacobs chuck Arbour England 1MT 2JT"

David

Edited By David George 1 on 25/02/2019 19:38:52

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

Funny you should reply with that information…I also looked at the Rhom equivalent before buying the Jacobs..

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

David…is yours a recent new purchase ?

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

No it is at least 5 years old but if you look at the official Jacobs web site accessories the one I have looks like the picture on there with engraving stamping in black area on Morse taper middle. You can see the marking on the image on there. The one I have is unused.

David

Edited By David George 1 on 25/02/2019 19:46:37

Edited By David George 1 on 25/02/2019 19:47:39

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

Just received a reply from Jacobs…that was quick!…..They stopped putting their name on in 2012…

seems really silly …how can you tell if it’s one of theirs? But I guess their name is just as easy to fake as anything else..

Maybe Rohm have done the same…anything to reduce cost probably..

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Or they've outsourced manufacturing overseas. Hopefully they get the best ones.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Jacobs always seem to be harder than other makes and seem better made, if it has a quality feel to it and is accurately made and properly hardened then it could well be genuine.

Mike

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Chris Trice on 25/02/2019 20:47:52:

Or they've outsourced manufacturing overseas. Hopefully they get the best ones.

That does not stop them having their name on the product, the factories will add your logo just like UK factories add different logos to the products they make.

As you paid a premium for it I would hope they have them made to a higher spec and pass the cost on.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Hall 7 on 25/02/2019 19:47:02:

Just received a reply from Jacobs…that was quick!…..They stopped putting their name on in 2012…

.

… which is probably just after one of the 'bean counters' sold his soul to the devil.

MichaelG.

.

This old thread is worth a look:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/where-jacobs-drill-chucks-manufactured-now-209522/

Post #7 is concise.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/02/2019 07:40:29

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Posted by John Rudd on 25/02/2019 18:49:12:

………………..

I just found out my MPPT controller for my solar panels is a fake…( inasmuch its not mppt but pwm…)

Small point – the two are not mutually exclusive, MPPT controllers I think use PWM to adapt the load seen by the panels to the max power point.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by JasonB on 26/02/2019 06:52:12:

Posted by Chris Trice on 25/02/2019 20:47:52:

Or they've outsourced manufacturing overseas. Hopefully they get the best ones.

That does not stop them having their name on the product, the factories will add your logo just like UK factories add different logos to the products they make.

As you paid a premium for it I would hope they have them made to a higher spec and pass the cost on.

This one has no markings at all except the size of the two tapers with a blackened tang and a narrow black band between the two tapers. Not proof in itself but it's actually the inspector label which makes me suspect its origin because that is identical in style and typeface (light blue, fading top to bottom, black " CERTIFICATE Inspector" and a black pinstripe border, and with a red stamped number) to ones that come with equipment sold by the big suppliers. I have a set of very cheap mediocre collets with an identical label which is where my suspicion comes from.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/02/2019 07:38:11:

Posted by John Hall 7 on 25/02/2019 19:47:02:

…

.

… which is probably just after one of the 'bean counters' sold his soul to the devil.

…

In the interest of balance, the dreaded 'bean counters' have a far better understanding of a company's state of health than most. Chaps on the shop floor, techies, customers, politicians, and the man on the Clapham Omnibus rarely get to see the accounts, let alone study and understand them. Everyone has a limited view of the world that's more-or-less wrong compared with reality.

A good way of making a living from manufacturing is to produce "quality" products – items that sell profitably despite high prices because they perform better, last longer, or have bling value. In the past, "quality" has been associated with a skilled workforce operating in a developed country, when brand-names meant something for a few decades.

Much of this is folk memory: the history of the industrial revolution is one of continual downsizing of the workforce because people are expensive in every sense. They spend years being trained, then like to be paid more money than they're worth, take holidays, have big pensions and to have power. They also go sick, bunk off, take drugs, start fights, resist change and have distracting home problems. On top these disadvantages, people costs are usually the single most expensive item in the accounts. Therefore, replacing people with machines or cheaper people is always desirable. And a positive for society is that downsizing releases people for other work and this grows the economy.

Manufacturing is also highly competitive. It is a bad mistake to believe that Johnny Foreigner only makes cheap crap that no-one wants. Whatever we might believe or hope, the accounts say different. When it comes to money, evidence is more useful than opinion, especially ignorant opinion. Fondly imagining that foreign competition cheats, or their people, machines and methods are automatically inferior does no good whatever. Ignoring the financial results leads to bankruptcy. I'm afraid it's essential to play the game if you want to make a living from manufacturing. When a bean-counter says it's headed for the rocks, the business has to change! Typically, change is painful, including transferring machines and techniques to wherever labour and/or materials are cheaper. It's a global phenomenon – like it or not, manufacturing has become multi-national.

For obvious reasons people don't care for this much! Although we enrich our lives with consumer goods and luxuries, there's a strong sense something is missing. Far worse when it's your job that's outsourced, your loyalty that's rejected, and your skills and desire to work that are unwanted. While the past was far from perfect, it was more straightforward and settled than today. Sadly it is impossible to turn the clock back.

I don't think there is anything permanent about China's current success. As their economy matures, they will encounter exactly the same problems as the other industrial nations. Sooner or later, it will be advantageous to move manufacturing from China to wherever it's cheaper in future. One example: at the moment, China benefits from low cost container shipping which depends on cheap oil. When the price of oil rises, as it must, the bean counters will identify when it's cheaper to manufacture close to market, and the world will change again.

It's wrong to blame 'bean-counters' for bad news; they're just a tool for showing which way the wind is blowing.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 26/02/2019 11:04:30

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 26/02/2019 11:01:56:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/02/2019 07:38:11:

Posted by John Hall 7 on 25/02/2019 19:47:02:

…

.

… which is probably just after one of the 'bean counters' sold his soul to the devil.

…

In the interest of balance, the dreaded 'bean counters' have a far better understanding of a company's state of health than most.

[ … ]

It's wrong to blame 'bean-counters' for bad news; they're just a tool for showing which way the wind is blowing.

.

I am duly chastised, Dave … but I will just explain the thinking behind my somewhat flippant remark:

1. Proud British manufacturer makes top class product, and takes the trouble to mark it as such.
2. Manufacturer starts to struggle and closes factory.
3. Product manufacture is outsourced and company becomes little more than a distributor, but the product is of appropriate quality, and still bears his name.
4. Cost of outsourced manufacture is higher that it could be, due to that 'badge engineering'
5. BeanCounter realises that the cost of the bought-in item could be reduced, by just taking the Vanilla version. … No harm done; it's the same product.
6. … until someone takes the next step, and the quality starts to decline.

It need not be that way; but anonymising the physical component is perhaps the thin end of the wedge.

MichaelG.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

It does seem to be true that a quality product will have a manufacturers name on it, I would hesitate to believe a micrometer without a name or a name I recognise. I have on occasion bought unbranded tools and they don’t usually disappoint as my expectation is low and the price was right. Up to a point some of the cheap tool brands do offer a surprisingly good performance and could even be good value for money for a rarely used tool.

Mike

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

In product Cost, I was told that Material, Labour and Overheads make up the COST, in roughly equal proportions

However, this was for a product that is expected and has to be reliable, durable but with a reasonable initial cost.

There is no point in building in quality or features that the customer neither needs, nor wants.

If you don't control costs, you will go bankrupt. (Busy Fools Ltd)

If someone is prepared to sacrifice quality, durability or reliability, those proportions can be changed.

Remember the US Naval expert on guns who rejected the proposed method of bringing together the just sub critical components of the atom bomb, because the muzzle velocity would ruin the barrel after two firings! He forgot that after the first firing, the barrel would have been vaporised!

One instance of a "bean counter" doing the wrong thing was the one who rejected a change of method giving a saving of £1.6 Million per annum. Why? 'Cos it would take 13 months to pay back!

There are many shades of grey.

Howard

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

At least 50, if you believe Hollywood.

To my knowledge though, no one in those movies used a Jacobs chuck (or wore proper PPE either, so might be best they weren't using workshop equipment)

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Going back to the original post, there's no mention of how well the arbor works. Which is what really matters.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Note the red text in the description, here: **LINK**

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JACOBS-DRILL-CHUCK-ARBOR-SPINDLE-MT2-x-6JT-NEW-FROM-THE-UK-/251657690467

MichaelG.

.

Edit: … so we must assume that the seller is using an old stock-image.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/02/2019 19:21:32

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