Indoor Lathe

[dizzibitsParticipant @dizzibits]

I would like to know an ideal indoor lathe for a beginner

[dizzibitsParticipant @dizzibits]

Hello all,

I would like some suggestions for an indoor lathe if possible?

Size wise I am looking for something no wider than 850mm for the spot I have it destined for.

Also, if anyone has a link to any general tips for a miniature indoor workshop? I have a space of 190 x 90 (cm) to play with, with the lathe taking pride of place at the end against the wall! I live in a 3rd floor flat, so weight and bulk is also a factor.

I am a total beginner to engineering of any kind, although I have started having classes from a local engineer. I hope one day to have a proper workshop and to build a locomotive or two, but this is what I have to play with for now!

Many thanks for any assistance,

Dominic

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Dominic,

What lathe to buy depends on what you want to make. The Taig is a small (US made) lathe, the Asian 7 x14 Mini Lathe is larger but still within the 850mm you have available. The Sieg C4 is a bit larger than the mini-lathe and is equipped with power cross feed, it is probably just to long to fit into your space restriction.

Thor

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I would think any small lathe would do Dominic – either one of the new Chinese mini's or something a little older – Unimat, Cowells or similar. As always it somewhat depends on what you want to make with it.

I have a small EW lathe (2.5in) that is gradually evolving over time and it is very useful for smaller inside work during the Winter, although I have the benefit of a Super 7 and Lorch in the Shed. With a little bit of ingenuity you can do a lot of work on a small lathe – just don't expect it to remove metal fast….

Mine is mounted on an old printer table and has recently grown some shelving and a small milling attachment.

IanT

Edited By IanT on 23/09/2014 17:54:48

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Dominic,

First … Welcome Aboard !!!

I'm sure you will get many alternative suggestions, but I must just put in a word for the Jason lathe, by Perris [mid 1970s vintage]

I bought one recently; and it is a delightful little machine, sufficiently robust to do useful work.

Brian Perris was the designer of what has now become the Cowells lathe; which ha an excellent reputation.

MichaelG.

[dizzibitsParticipant @dizzibits]

Thank you for the responses.

Thor initially I plan to start making very basic models, the sort of thing you see here

Once I am more confident I would very much like to start building a 5 inch steam locomotive, again a simple one initially. My long-term wish is to build a 5" standard class loco however I am restricted currently with space and lack of expertise/ equipment. I am a real novice so I assume my first forays into model engineering and metal work be kept as simple as possible.

IanT thanks for the pics. Food for thought! I have been looking at the Chester conquest, as it would fit in the space I have. Although an automatic/powered feed would great for better finishes. I shall look at those you mention.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Make sure you allow enough room at the head end to take the cover off if you want to access the change gears and a bit at the tailstock end so you can slide it right back where the handwheel will overhang the bed.

J

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Dominic,

I build in Gauge 3 (2.5" gauge) and the EW can probably handle most things in G3 (it's slightly larger than a Unimat or Cowells) but a 5" engine would be a real stretch on any smaller lathe, although you might just manage a small 0-4-0 on one.

If you really want to build in the larger gauges (and I view 5" as being "larger"  ) then you want to look to a larger lathe if at all possible. Of course you could also divide the work up if you can find someone/somewhere to do the larger pieces, as many turned loco parts are not that large and could be handled on a small lathe if you can do the 'bigger' bits elsewhere.

This is essentially what I do. The EW is good for smaller parts (such as boiler fittings) and the larger ones (such as wheel castings) get done on the S7. One thought, some ME Societies have their own workshops where you might find a larger lathe that you can use. Smaller turning work and any erecting and/or bench work could still be done at home until you have more room. And you will want somewhere to run your new engine once it's built of course…so joining a local MES could be a good investment

anT

Edited By IanT on 23/09/2014 18:41:35

[dizzibitsParticipant @dizzibits]

Thank you for the advice IanT. I do belong to a local MES and they are on hand for advice, and the place I am learning some machining skills has a big Harrison lathe that is useable, for a fee. Having read around the forum I have seen the typical advice given is go for bigger if you can, which led me to the Warco WM 180 or The Chester DB7VS ..

I assume that this is the sort of size I can, when ready, start working on 5" scale loco? The width of the 180 means that it may be possible to position it against the other wall, thus giving it room either side when baring in mind JasonB's comment.

190 x 90 cm really is not a whole lot of space, although I will be happy with a stool, a small work bench and the lathe to be fair.

 

Edited By dizzibits on 23/09/2014 20:55:21

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

That's 6×2. Now it makes more sense. Is that the space for the bench with equivalent to stand in or is it a case of closing the cupboard door too?

You don't have to put the lathe straight in line along the bench, it may seem strange but you could angle the tailstock to the rear of the bench and get a bit bigger one in without it feeling so cramped. A 7in or 180mm type is what it will swing – that converts to a 7ft driving wheel for a 5in model so covers most locos apart from a Stirling Single. You will also want 6in to the left of the headstock for protruding bar-stock and a mandrel handle which is a good early project on a small lathe to facilitate screw cutting. The little Cowells, Perris etc are really only sitable for G1 and maybe 2 1/2 in.

As well as noise and weight have a think about swarf control to keep it away from food and bathing areas. A piece of carpet in front of the bench can be rolled up complete with dust and taken ouside for punishment. I also suggest making a decent bench out of ply not chipbosard or kitchen units that is designed to take apart and survive moving to you next house. Don't get a lathe with integral stand as they are very inefficient storage compared to a decently designed bench. Apart from this and a 4 in swivel vice ( so that is can be turned aside to fit inside your bench envelope) spend all your available budget on the lathe.

[dizzibitsParticipant @dizzibits]

Hi Bazyle,

In imperial it is practically 6×3. There is not equivalent to stand in, that is available space total. It is a void in a loft conversion between a solid stair bannister and two walls. A handy little hobby-craft space, but as you say noise may be a big factor as it is quite enclosed.

I have a spare length of carpet I can use for swarf control, and it is nowhere near food or the bathroom. I have never built a workbench in my life, I have not done any type of woodwork for fifteen years since being at school! This lathe can come with a stand which as you say looks inefficient.

I have looked at some sample drawings and yes 180mm will swing just about all 5" driving wheels which is encouraging. I see most older drawings are in imperial, do you suggest getting an imperial lathe? The advice I read says err on the side of metric.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Its not to hard to make more use of one of those stands by removing the central panel and filling with something more useful.

Though for the cost of the Chester/Warco stands you could get two 2nd hand Bisley draw units and an offcut of kitchen worktop or old fire door which would make useful storage and bench.

Edited By JasonB on 24/09/2014 11:08:40

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I'm a big fan of mini-lathes, but I really think that squeezing one in such a space, though possible, could make many things so awkward it could limit the use and pleasure you get out of it.

I would consider a smaller machine that you can lift out of the way and store on a shelf or cupboard, so you can also use the space for other purposes.

Neil

[dizzibitsParticipant @dizzibits]

Thank you Jason for the pictures and tips. The stands are not cheap. I am willing to look for alternatives like you mention.

Neil I understand what you mean, I would be disappointed if I found after spending the best part of £1,000 on a lathe and tools that I cannot use it effectively or comfortably.

I will take a photograph later today and post the space I am referring to, and also the very narrow flight of stairs I would need to get the lathe up somehow, which will be an undertaking and engineering problem unto itself! Perhaps a small L cart, or rope and winch!

[StovepipeParticipant @stovepipe]

Dominic,

I would suggest that you should consider your options very carefully. The description of your accommodation suggests that you are in a private house. If you bought a very heavy lathe, would the floors stand up to it?

If you damaged the floor or the stairs in getting it up to your flat, would you be liable for damages ? Some lathes come with a free hernia with every model. As a beginner, might I would suggest that a small lathe to practice on might be a better investment.

Sorry to be a wet weekend about this, but I hope this helps.

Dennis

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

With the largest size lathe Dominic can fit weighing in around 60-70kg its hardly likely to make the floor fall in as its less than the average weight of a person. More likely to do damage moving unweildy furniture than a small compact lump like a lathe of this type.

J

[dizzibitsParticipant @dizzibits]

Hi Dennis,

I do appreciate the caution. I live in a two-floor apartment at the top of a small block of flats. It has lift access almost as far as my front door, however the small flight of stairs to the loft conversion/second floor is in the apartment itself, which will make shifting anything over 35-40kg difficult. The DB7VS Lathe is 55kg which is the one I am starting to really consider.

The very small lathes will be good to cut my teeth on, (pardon any semblance of a pun), but as other threads such as this allude to, it may not take long for me to wish I had bought bigger. Particularly when considering Bazyle's point that a 180mm swing will mean just about any 5" loco could potentially be built.

Regards

Dominic

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Getting the 5" loco down the stairs will be more of a challenge than getting the lathe up

[dizzibitsParticipant @dizzibits]

Well yes but it will be sometime before I am building a 9F! A Juliet 0-4-0 is a more likely first attempt, which will be heavy enough!

I imagine that by the time I am working on the chassis of a 5" I will be looking to move, I am here for the duration of the degree course (3 years).

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I suggest a change of tack in view of some of the information above including my hopeless maths. Get a slightly smaller lathe with only a 5 in swing such as the Hobbymat second hand with a view to selling it when you move. Start by making some stationary or marine engines or G1. You are going to have problems with making a boiler in your set up anyway. Later you will be able to make a lot of the bits for your 5in loco such as buffers and boiler fittings on this small lathe. When you have the option for a shed get a bigger lathe than is possible now, eg 9in swing which will be much better in the long run.

Meanwhile look at a small loco design and list all the part of it in two columns, One for bits needing a lathe and one for bits not needing a lathe. Notice anything? yes, a lathe is useless for 90% of model engineering. What you actually need is a bench, a vice and a few files. Sorry if that is a bit boring but such is the nature of the hobby.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

It will be surprising if your fellow M.E.S.members are anything less than helpful with advice and even facilities, so do ask questions and chat with them.

Many superb models have been made on small lathes; the ingenuity used is amazing.

With regard to weight, don't forget the bench on which the lathe will sit. It needfs to be sturdy and rigid, which will mean weight. 50mm x 50mm framing will make a strong bench, but be heavy, especially once you have added a ply top (preferably 18mm) to it. You could well make the bench fill all the space available, as you will need room for other work, especially vice work.

This may sound like overkill, but a flimsy bench will lessen accuracy, and in the long run, could eventually twist the lathe bed slightly.

I would urge setting the lathe so that bed is free of twist. For this you either need to adopt the practice given in books like The Amateur's Workshop (Ian Bradley /The Amateur's Lathe (L.H.Sparey)/ Myford Series 7 Manual (Ian Bradley). One or all will be useful reference s for years to come, as will The Model Rngineerrs Handbook by Tubal Cain. And, No, I don't have shares in any of the publishers!

With regard to noise, you could try standing the bench legs on rubber pads, to reduce the risk of noise "telephoning" through to the rest of the house. (You don't want the ground floor complaining every time that you drill a hole!) 6 mm minimum would be my suggestion to try to isolate the lathe and bench from the floor.

But don't use rubber so soft, or so thick that the whole thing wobbles like a jelly on a plate.

On the subject of flooring and swarf removal, how about something along the lines of a cushionfloor material? You may be able to pick up a remnant fairly cheaply from a carpet/flooring shop. Sweeping swarf off it with a dustpan and brush will be easy as there is nothing for the swarf to hang onto, and oil or coolant can easily be wiped up. And there are no cracks/crevices where a dropped small nut/washer/drill or tap can hide.

It will make standing a little more comfortable and cleaning easier If possible make it bigger then the workshop floor area by about 50 or 60 mm all round, so that the excess curls up the walls to avoid corners where swarf can hide. It would be nice if the top edges could be attached, or sealed to the walls, so that the swarf can't get behind it, (It matches Houdini or Heineken for reaching places that you can't!)

You will already be aware of the need for measuring equipment. An inexpensive starting point is a digital calliper, (Lidl or Aldi have them as draw lines from time to time, for about £9. Assuming that you are UK based)

Don't forget the old faithful of a good 6" rule for rough measurements. (One of my Instructors warned me, as an Apprentice, that it was possible to correct to within a thou, but be an inch out – a good point! Another could use his and measure to within a few thou- EXPERIENCE!)

The next stop en route to bankruptcy, should be via a Dial Test Indicator (aka a "clock&quot, ideally on a Magnetic Base, but a Scribing Block will be just as good, for a lot of work. A nice extra would be a "finger clock" (Verdict type) graduated in 0.005" (in old money) or 0.01mm for EU members.

You may well be able to acquire some or all of these, and Micrometers, secondhand, from fellow Club members, if a Club "junk sale" is ever held, or at one of the Model Engineering Exhibitions. Only caveat is if it looks battered, DON'T.

An inaccurate measuring device is a waste of time, money, and ultimately material. Once I bought a Vernier Calliper, new, from the local branch of major "high street" tooling supplier. After finding that the Inside and outside jaw readings differed by a couple of thou, it was returned, and exchanged for an accurate one. To my horror, "mine" was replaced in the display cabinet, with the comment "Well, it's only for hobby use"!!!!!!

Hope that all of this is of some help to you starting out on a most useful and absorbing hobby.

Howard

[dizzibitsParticipant @dizzibits]

Hi Bazyle,

I had a little look for hobbymat. It is not my preference to buy machinery second hand with my level of experience, and the hobbymat lathes I looked at are almost the price of some of the larger ones. Ultimately price will be the biggest factor on a student budget. The second part of your response surprises me! I did not realise so little was done on a lathe. The chaps at the ME club seem to always be turning something or other, not filing and rubbing away! Perhaps they keep that bit quiet!

Hello Howard,

Thank you very much for the comprehensive and helpful response.

Based on all of the above information from you and others, I believe I will start with the workbench first. I have my machine shop class today so I will discuss the bench with my teacher, who also has a large wood-working shop. I found all three of those books for a very reasonable price so I have ordered them, thank you for the recommendation. I already had a metric micrometer, digital calliper, scribe and steel rule being delivered this week!

I shall look at a Dial Test indicator and Finger Clock later or tomorrow. There are occasionally bits for sale at the ME club night, although I have not attended for a few months as it clashes with work. Something which can perhaps be altered.

 

I have added some photos of the space I am referring to. The phone is for scale. The stairs are 19" wide. The staircase hole is 6 x 3 so with the right equipment or manpower a heavier, no more than 70kg lathe could get up.

I can use some of the space by the nook I am referring, but the nook is what I had in mind.

Edited By dizzibits on 25/09/2014 09:03:24

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Aha! A mini-lathe may well be practical as you can let the handweels overhang the banister rail.

You may want to jig up some sort of guard to stop swarf, small items etc. falling down stairs.

A sheet of ply on the floor over a plastic a sheet will make cleaning up easier, and you DO want to protect those nice white walls – getting your deposit back might help pay for boiler materials for the 5" in three year's time.

Neil

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

I'm also on the same road, I start uni tomorrow and hope to get some time in the workshops, or just get chatting to the guys in there soon.

I would certainly think about creating yourself some sort of "easy clean" floor and wall covers – you could spend hours picking swarf out of that carpet

I would guess a local flooring specialist may be able to help with some vinyl floor off cuts and odd ends for free – if your carpet is very soft it may be better to put a piece of hard board "whatever's cheap" down on the floor (old laminate flooring, or ideally a single piece of MDF or chipboard)

Perhaps you could build splash back/sides to a custom bench along one wall, or along the back, perhaps a mini L shape??? – when you spin up the work piece it will tend to throw oil forwards not just backwards, so think about where its going to "fly"

Given the space I would build the bench at standing height – maximising under storage potential, my bench has a lower step at the end, I plan to mount my grinder and donkey saw to same size pieces of old kitchen worktop so I can interchange them and store them under the bench, or just fit a blank in place if I want maximum bench size.

I bought a cheap £100 delivered tool roll cab and top box (Sealey AP2200BB) – it's very cheap and flimsy but it does the job nicely and once it's got some weight in it, its ok. With a little care it will last me for a long time. – you will probably find that is just about the right size to hold all the things you will need in an orderly fashion, from HSS or insert tooling or both, to a bit of stock, your chucks, your measuring kit, change wheels, steadies, hand files etc etc – I found the budget cutlery trays made handy cheap inserts for the drawers.

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Well that'll teach me me to press send when I've written something rather than forgetting and leaving it open for 2 hours lol

basically ditto what Neil said!!!!

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