If starting again, what would you buy with a budget of £5k?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 11/03/2019 19:19:35:…

Surely I can't be the only one? Everyone else knew they wanted to build planes, trains and automobiles?

No you're not, but it does help if you can focus on something. Have pity on the poor sods trying to answer the original question, which is extremely broad!

Clockmaking and motorbikes imply rather different equipment. On top of that your experience, your feelings about new vs secondhand, productivity, British vs Foreign, how much of that £5000 you're prepared to risk, competencies, aptitude, how much time and space you have, domestic limitations etc etc.

A career machinist intending to earn money fixing up classic cars after retirement wouldn't choose a Mini-lathe, but a mini-lathe is a good choice for a learner with a limited budget who wants to get a feel for practical lathe work with a view to trading up later.

I mostly use a lathe and mill in support of other technical interests. I'm also interested in learning metalworking skills as a hobby. I like exploring old techniques and odd jobs. I rarely do precision work nor do I make models for exhibition. (I've found building small engines to be an excellent way of stretching my skills, but I don't bother polishing, painting or presenting them.)

For general purpose work, the bigger the machine the better. My single garage workshop has to accommodate a bench with vice, a lathe, mill and band-saw, storage, a collection of hand-tools, and various other junk. It's a tight fit, and an advantage of buying new Chinese was being able to source the biggest mill and lathe that would fit into the floor space, while not needing me to upgrade the existing electrics.

I have a WM280 lathe, which is rather bigger than a Myford Super 7, and rather smaller than a Colchester Student. It sits across from a WM18 mill, which is the biggest I can also fit into the shared space. Providing decent working access to the machines was a consideration in my case: it's best to have plenty of room at the headstock end of a lathe so it can turn long stock, and not having the headstock cramped into a corner also it makes it easier to change belts and change-wheels. Similarly, the mill shouldn't be cramped because the table has a fair amount of right & left travel and overhang. The height of the mill may be an issue relative to your ceiling. – the WM18 fits within ordinary domestic headroom. Lathe and mill weigh about 250kg each and moving them with an engine crane is a man & boy job. An 800kg Colchester Student is proportionally more difficult to shift and floor loading & electrics may both be problems.

I started with a mini-lathe and learned a great deal from it. Main problem after a couple of years – too small. It lacks conveniences too, like t-slots in the cross-slide. After using a mini-lathe I had a much better understanding of lathes in general – what they're capable of, and their faults, features and shortcomings. At heart a lathe is a simple device and even unpromising machines can produce good results given time and skill. A professional full-featured lathe does the same job faster, demands less of the operator, minimises fuss, is 'nice' to use, and you get bragging rights. New professional lathes are gobsmacking expensive and very few hobbyists go that route. Second-hand is a good alternative, but condition is everything. Problem is that second-hand machines have history and if damaged, the spares aren't cheap, or even available. Evaluating a second-hand lathe isn't easy, especially if you can't see the thing running and are inexperienced.

Far Eastern hobby lathes have all the advantages of new (including money back if it's a dud), but they are not as refined or sturdy as professional equivalents costing at least 6 times as much. Mine benefited from minor tweaks but mill and lathe both worked out of the box and are still doing everything I want. I half expected to find I wanted something better, but so far so good. In the context of a £5000 budget and a high risk that family distractions will deny you workshop time, investing £600 on a mini-lathe as a learning aid might be a good investment compared with filling a workshop with doer-uppers and having no time to fix them.

Asking for general advice on a forum like this can be misleading. What people advise is determined by their experience, their budget, and their needs. In the end it comes down to how much risk and trouble you're prepared to go to in pursuit of your goals. That's why people were keen to know where you were coming from.

Dave

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Toby Clark on 11/03/2019 18:25:35:

Hi Lee:

Thanks for your post. As a newbie (and a journalist) myself, I thought that was an eminently sensible, open way to phrase your question – and let the respondents frame their replies according to how they enjoy the hobby! I didn't expect the firestorm of ennui, suspicion and grumpiness you got back.

I'll certainly think twice before asking for help here…

Courage!

Welcome to the forum. And as a fellow journalist may I point out that "firestorm of ennui" is a contradiction in terms? Ennui means listlessness. Or did you mean innuendo? Sorry to be so critical (and suspicious and grumpy!) on your second post on the forum, but really.

Just to clarify, an example of ennui would be: "                                                                             "

And an example of innuendo would be: "I didn't know sock puppets could have sock puppets".

 

Edited By Hopper on 11/03/2019 23:40:02

[Toby ClarkParticipant @tobyclark30298]

Posted by Hopper on 11/03/2019 22:48:03:

Posted by Toby Clark on 11/03/2019 18:25:35:

Hi Lee:

Thanks for your post. As a newbie (and a journalist) myself, I thought that was an eminently sensible, open way to phrase your question – and let the respondents frame their replies according to how they enjoy the hobby! I didn't expect the firestorm of ennui, suspicion and grumpiness you got back.

I'll certainly think twice before asking for help here…

Courage!

Welcome to the forum. And as a fellow journalist may I point out that "firestorm of ennui" is a contradiction in terms? Ennui means listlessness. Or did you mean innuendo? Sorry to be so critical (and suspicious and grumpy!) on your second post on the forum, but really.

Like Alice, I mean what I say. It's an oxymoron.

And I reckon Lee means what he says, too: he asked, "If starting again, what would you buy with a budget of £5k?" – a nice open question, inviting you to say what YOU would buy and why. And yet lots of respondents took it as a vague request for consumer advice, and loosed both barrels at him.

Sorry to be so negative in my last post on the forum, but really…

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

So, where do sock puppets go when they die?

(Another example of innuendo just for the record. I shall now lapse (thankfully) into ennui….)

[BWParticipant @bw]

I would buy

a relatively modern lathe that has a slotted cross slide and 3 point chuck connection capable of both imperial and metric dials

a mill with a dovetail column something like a seig X3, if possible something slightly bigger with a rising knee table but that might break the total 5k budget ? Some sort of self ejecting morse taper or a different taper, R8 ? Don't know enough about this

VFDs on the lathe and Mill, built in or added later

A tiny mini lathe like a sherline – just got one 2nd hand – good for tiny projects

An electric bandsaw

Am assuming hand tools not included in the 5K ie hand drills, spanners, hacksaws, bench vices, benches, pliers etc etc etc

Second hand only, dont think I could do the above brand new for 5k. Cheap entry and you start learning a lot straight away. Its often been pointed out that your first lathe or mill is only there to help you decide what features you want on the second one. You have to start somewhere.

Maybe DRO's if there is any budget leftover after buying cutting and holding tools but unlikely, a luxury.

Why ?

2nd hand machines have been good to me so far – retired – total novice 6 years ago, hobbyist, 2nd hand has been fabulous and cheap introduction to this Hobby, if you wait and look long enough you can get nice buys,

Frustrations with Older Lathe – Have to change belts for speeds, screw on chucks can get stuck, bell mouthed chucks, only has imperial scales on dials, lot of backlash on feedscrews, small throat in headstock means I have relatively more unused stubs of metal in the scrap bin, relatively low speeds hence the addition of the mini lathe,. scratched and scarred tailstock MT2 socket, didnt come with qctp but that not too serious

Good things older gear : Cheap and Solid/Robust compared to more expensive modern machinery

Frustrations with older round column mill-drill ; Round column loses registration with the job if you have to shift it, have to think hard regarding initial height when starting a job, you can get a hell of a nasty surprise if you raise a round column mill head and then forget to tighten it, changing speeds by changing belts is a pain, have accumulated a confused mish mash of draw bars with different threads for different tools – would try to be more consistent if starting again with one standard drawbar and attachment thread and self ejecting taper mechanism of some sort

General Issues : Bigger machines = bigger fittings and accessories = more expensive ? not sure 

You can get some satisfaction out of doing small things ie diy rotary table, diy vice, diy qctp, diy sensitive feed, all scaled to fit your machines a 7" or 9" lathe would be a goldilocks size for me – some stunning things on the internet made with Myford 7"

Am still a novice and if any of the above is wrong or doesnt make sense that just means I need to learn a bit more before opening my mouth to talk.

Edited By BW on 12/03/2019 02:20:53

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by Toby Clark on 11/03/2019 23:31:53:

Posted by Hopper on 11/03/2019 22:48:03:

Posted by Toby Clark on 11/03/2019 18:25:35:

Hi Lee:

Thanks for your post. As a newbie (and a journalist) myself, I thought that was an eminently sensible, open way to phrase your question – and let the respondents frame their replies according to how they enjoy the hobby! I didn't expect the firestorm of ennui, suspicion and grumpiness you got back.

I'll certainly think twice before asking for help here…

Courage!

Welcome to the forum. And as a fellow journalist may I point out that "firestorm of ennui" is a contradiction in terms? Ennui means listlessness. Or did you mean innuendo? Sorry to be so critical (and suspicious and grumpy!) on your second post on the forum, but really.

Like Alice, I mean what I say. It's an oxymoron.

And I reckon Lee means what he says, too: he asked, "If starting again, what would you buy with a budget of £5k?" – a nice open question, inviting you to say what YOU would buy and why. And yet lots of respondents took it as a vague request for consumer advice, and loosed both barrels at him.

Sorry to be so negative in my last post on the forum, but really…

Please don't argue guys – particularly on my account. We've only just managed to get this thread back on track. There is some great information being posted here, which could be helpful for people to read back on in the future. It becomes much less helpful if the discussion is peppered with spats of malice towards each other.

Thanks SillyOldDuffer and BW, those are amazing responses.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

It is worth bearing in mind that it is easier to do small work on a large lathe than large work on a small lathe. Many people have bought a larger lathe after buying a small one, some as a replacement and some as an addition. The same can apply to mills as some of the entry level small mills are very light and perfectly useful for small work it can become frustrating to tackle larger work with limited power and rigidity. I bought a Myford and the Rodney milling head came with it, a proper mill zoomed up my list of priorities. The Myford saddle and crosslide are very lightly made compared to even the smallest purpose made milling machine. I like my Myford as a lathe but milling is not it’s forte. I bought a Warco VMC mill as I felt a knee type mill is the best configuration for a mill, I would find the loss of registration if you move the head of the round column mill drill type of machine to be an irritation even though it can be worked around. With a knee mill gravity is on your side as the weight of the knee is an effective backlash eliminator when adjusting depth of cut. On a mill where the head is moved up and down if is should stick due to the gibs being a bit tight or lubrication sticktion then you may get an uxepectedly deep cut or not cut as deep as you set, regular users will work with this and it is a very popular configuration.

Mike

[BWParticipant @bw]

Hopper gave a great list of accessories in post #3

Worth another look at that list, you can often get tools/accessories included with the main machine when buying second hand, you may not realise it but you can easily spend as much on tools as on the machines so getting second hand tools as a bulk buy with your lathe/mill is worth considering. I have been very lucky in that respect.

Bill

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Apologies for the terse, drive-by reply to your post Dave (SillyOldDuffer), I had only just fired up my computer at work and had a few tasks I needed to clear off before really poring over it and giving it the credit that it deserved.

In a nutshell, you have essentially cemented my current view on the 'old vs new' decision. Given my current lack of /knowledge/understanding in the area, I do see buying second hand has a risk. As you rightly say, given my current situation (young family), my time is reasonably limited and machine refurbishment, although a totally valid and highly rewarding hobby it its own right, isn't what I'm aiming for. After a bunch of research over a few months, it was seemingly apparent that Warco machine owners were, in the round, happy with their purchases. I think the only sensible way for me to buy a second-hand machine is with guidance – and I'm sorry to say that I do not have that kind of knowledgable (in person) support network around me just yet.

Thanks also to BW. Budget doesn't have to cover anything outside of; Mill, Lathe and accessories for them. I already have most of the other tooling you mention. As much as I like the idea of superbly made, older, second-hand machines, my knowledge levels and appetite for risk is too low and the draw of a warranty too high. Maybe go new first, then trade-up to a really nice second-hand machine once I've acquired a good fair bit of knowledge?

Not sure if you saw before Mike, but the VMC was (is still I guess) at the top of my list. I'm sure there are people who are unhappy with their Warco machines, but the vast majority of things I've read are very positive. Might make places to go there for a visit on Friday (if they're open to the public on non-event days).

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 10/03/2019 13:56:52:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 10/03/2019 12:47:21:

……………….. – just move on.

Now there's a thought – I wonder if any other forums would have me?

Andrew

Postscript: The guitar analogy isn't a good one, as guitars don't vary that much in size compared to an instrument lathe (50mm centre height) versus a large industrial lathe (500mm centre height).

They vary in other ways you know… a nylon-strung classical guitar is not quite the same as a ten-string death metal machine like a Schecter Hell-raiser.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes they are open in the week to visitors, you will probably get more attention than when they are busy on an open day and they should be able to run the machines you are interested in, at least that's what they did for me.

If you are happy to come down to the 250 & VMC size that will still allow you to do quite a bit and still have a good budget for equiping the machines, the mill will likely need more items than the lathe

Edited By JasonB on 12/03/2019 10:29:02

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

OK, I've just read through the last page or so and had an email from Toby asking to have his account deleted in disgust at being accused of 'sock puppetry'.

As I said earlier we should treat questions from new members in good faith.

The original question was a fair one, people seem to have taken umbrage that the OP then added supplementary information that sowed confusion rather than clarity.

Some of the responses to that did seem, at the very least, 'mean spirited'.

Usually this forum is friendly and helpful to newcomers. That said, many of us are of an age where we like to display both pedantry and quick wit with the unfortunate consequence that when used on a newcomer this can make our forum feel like an exclusive club.

I don't want to use closing threads to become a blunt instrument, but can I please ask EVERYONE to consider moderating their own responses so I don't have to.

In particular, if there's a question or thread you feel is boring or worthless, please just pass over it and let others who want to discuss it. And if there's a poster who really gets your goat – that's what the ignore button is for.

Neil

[Anonymous]

To get back to the OP when I bought my current lathe (Harrison M300) and vertical mill (Bridgeport) I had a very clear idea of what I wanted and the capabilities needed. I knew what traction engine I was going to build so that dictated the swing and between centres length needed for the lathe. No way I could afford to buy either new, so they were bought secondhand, from a dealer. I didn't see the Bridgeport run, but we did run the lathe in a selection of spindle speeds and feeds. If we hadn't I wouldn't have bought it. The dealer had a choice of two Harrison M300s, I bought the tatty one. Why? For a start it was 40" between centres, not 25" as for the other one. The 25" between centres one was immaculate and well equipped with Dickson front and rear toolposts; but the bed was worn, you could see and feel the ridges.

One of the reasons that this thread turned a bit odd is that these sorts of posts often end up in a sterile, but heated, debate on secondhand UK/US versus new far East machine tools. Which results in the thread being locked.

I didn't consider new far East machines – copies of both the Harrison M300 and Bridgeport are available but they were significantly more than I could afford; albeit a lot cheaper than the real thing new.

For me the pros and cons of my secondhand machine tools are:

Pros

Both machines are still in production so spare parts are available, albeit very expensive for the Harrison

Being industrial machines they're designed for production work so operation is quick and easy. The lathe has a geared headstock and full imperial/metric gearbox so spindle and feed changes are quick. The lathe spindle fitting is Camlock, so it takes about 30 seconds to change a chuck. I'm lazy so these features are inportant to me.

Standard accessories for both lathe and mill are available. But being industrial more specialised accessories are also available. For the lathe I've got capstan unit, hydraulic copying unit and a high speed threading attachment, while for the mill I've got a slotting head and right-angle spindle drive. While none of these get used frequently they do make life easier.

The machines are designed to run over production shifts, so there are no issues with running at capacity over prolonged periods.

Cons

Industrial machines are normally designed to run on a three phase supply. Of course VFDs can be used, but to my mind they're less than ideal in this application – I coughed up and fitted a three phase supply, partially on the grounds that my existing single phase (60A) and a wind yer own fuses consumer unit needed upgrading anyway.

Industrial machine tools are heavy and take up a lot of room. I reckon I can move up to a ton by myself, over a ton I get the professionals involved.

Industrial machine tools are designed to remove metal quickly – if you do something dumb they will injure or kill you without a second thought. Wear appropriate safety gear – I've got steel toecap shoes and googles, no loose clothing and definitely no gloves.

To an extent background influences ones choice. I'm a professional engineer and use my machines for work on occasion. Like I said I'm lazy and for me the final part is the important thing, not fannying around with operating the machines. Unless of course it's a technique I haven't tried before.

A quick note on the forum: unlike some other model engineering forums a significant number of members here are not model engineers and have no interest in building models. So the forum is wider ranging and possibly rather more edgy than some other forums. Personally I quite like that. If anyone thinks this forum is a bit off take a look at PracticalMachinist (for professional machinists); some of the replies would make a stoker blush!

Andrew

Postscript: While condition of secondhand machines is a consideration I wouldn't get too hung up on it. Both my lathe and mill have considerable backlash (10 to 20 thou) and the ways on the mill are worn, but it doesn't stop me producing work to the standard I need and expect.

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 12/03/2019 11:16:44

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 12/03/2019 10:20:16:

…

Not sure if you saw before Mike, but the VMC was (is still I guess) at the top of my list. I'm sure there are people who are unhappy with their Warco machines, but the vast majority of things I've read are very positive. Might make places to go there for a visit on Friday (if they're open to the public on non-event days).

Very good idea to have a look at real machines, even better if you can have a play. Bristol doesn't have (as far as I know) a good showroom. The nearest is toolco at Stroud : that's all I know about them! MachineMart outlets often have a mini-lathe on display. I doubt they could demonstrate it working, but you can look closely and wind handles etc. to get an idea of build quality.

Following the 'bigger is better' rule suggests a VMC will out-perform a WM18. It's also a better design. The WM18 is a big example of the small mill type, ie whole column swivels , fixed height table, and a travelling head / quill. This layout works well for small machines, but it's not particularly rigid. The VMC arrangement (table moves vertically rather than the quill) is a considerable improvement. What put me off was the weight – 415kg, and the extra height. Cost wasn't a problem, and I put some thought into squeezing it in, but decided it was more trouble than it was worth. Had I bought a house with a double garage though…

The thing I regret most about getting into the hobby was the time I wasted dithering about tools. Forty years ago I had a bad experience trying to buy a second-hand Myford; then family responsibilities got in the way; then preparing for retirement I discovered the second-hand vs new debate, and Fear Uncertainty and Doubt wasted another 5 years. Finally I bought a mini-lathe, decided on first contact it was crap, then learned how to use it properly and discovered it was actually capable.

Last beginner advice: don't attempt to learn using scrap metal! Part of the hobby is understanding materials and – shock horror – many metals do not machine well. Stainless steels often work-harden, some steels are gritty, or extremely hard, or require heat-treatment. Cast-iron often comes with an extremely hard-skin, and the quality inside varies enormously. Old sash weights are horrible. Many aluminium alloys are soft and sticky. Due to their low melting point they're liable to weld themselves to the cutting point. Copper doesn't machine well. Brass is usually good wherever it comes from. Otherwise, best to buy steel, Aluminium and other metals intended for machining, often described as 'free-cutting'. Ordinary EN3B mild-steel is OK, turning EN1A-leaded is a positive pleasure! Part of the £5000 should be spent on some good reference books. Sparey; Workshop Practice Series; Machinery's Handbook etc. Years of fun ahead…

Dave

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by Hopper on 11/03/2019 22:48:03:

And an example of innuendo would be: "I didn't know sock puppets could have sock puppets".

Was that directed at me?

You think I am; a previous member, the person speaking to you now AND Tom?

Dude, you really have to let this go!

I genuinely have no idea why you would think I would waste my time creating multiple accounts.

If you don't have anything positive or constructive to say, I suggest you take Neil's advice.

[Author]

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