If starting again, what would you buy with a budget of £5k?

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Can we not fix this with a 'sticky' based on all the previous threads copied into one big one. All we do is rewrite what we said last week and the week before that etc etc when all we need to do is refer them to the big thread

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

With the power of google at your finger tips it is not to difficult to assemble a list of lathes, suppliers and the size, features and prices of the machines. List your requirements and the final shortlist will emerge. There are some good used machines to be found but unless you can sort the good from the bad or know someone who can then used can be a minefield. Once the shortlist of new machines has emerged then you will need to choose a supplier and much has been written on this and other forums about the service they have received. Human nature seems to be, to complain louder than praise but a fair number of people have made the effort to praise good service on this forum.

Mike

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 10/03/2019 17:46:20:

Posted by Paul Kemp on 10/03/2019 15:49:25:

While I tend to agree with most of your posts I am afraid your PS in the context of what Neil wrote is way off the mark.

I appreciate that different styles of music require different guitars with their own features. But I specifically referred to size. I'm not aware that playing one style of music as opposed to another requires a guitar that is ten times the size of the first? Depending upon what one wants to machine it would be quite easy to need a lathe that is ten or more times the size of another lathe.

Andrew

Granted. But as I said in the context of what Neil said "In this case, I think reluctance to give an idea of what they want to do is rather like asking 'what guitar should I buy' without saying the genre of music." Coupled with the OP making no reference to size it was a fair analogy. Yes size is an obvious factor but the OP did state a budget of £5k for everything and I think you would be hard pushed to get a lathe with 500mm centre height, a mill (of similar size I would assume) plus the goodies, maybe a radial arm drill to match capacity and a shed as someone else mentioned for £5k?

Sorry if I am being a grumpy old git!

Paul.

[Martin WhittleParticipant @martinwhittle67411]

I have a couple of Warco machines, a WM16 mill and a WM250VF lathe, and I am very happy with them – I think!

However I was at their open day yesterday. They had a Smart and Brown lathe (not familiar which model, but it did look nice), and two Harrison mills (one horizontal, one horizantal/vertical).

No room for them in my workshop. and it would need a more substantial floor.

But I could have had a excellent pair of substantial quality British machines for around £1500 total, delivered.

So I think if I were setting up again, but also only if I could accommodate them in terms of size and weight, I would opt for larger second hand British machines, if only one could find them at the appropriate time.

Martin

[Simon Williams 3Participant @simonwilliams3]

Well, to answer the question the OP posed :

Got to be second-hand if my budget is only £5K, can't stretch this far enough with new machines. Take my chances on buying a dog, make sure to try before you buy, and only part with my hard won loot to a dealer who talks the talk and walks the walk. Buy privately if you can but be very choosy.

What I would buy would be a Colchester Student or Triumph 2000, plus a Bridgeport. probably Mk1. I have probably spent my budget of £5K by this stage on the machines, and will be saving my Christmas money for chucks and tooling for the foreseeable future.. But I might be lucky and get enough to make a start.

A Start on what?

Not model making, not with that machine line-up. I'm into more agricultural pursuits. Hopefully I can get a stick welder out of my budget as well.

As I read the original question in the thread title, this wasn't about the OP looking for advice, it sought a personal opinion as to my own preferences for pursuing my interests.

But I could be wrong. (Again).

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Wowsers. Looks like I stepped on a bear trap with this one.

Firstly I'd like to say to you guys who have been overly negative in this post; you must understand that when someone comes in off-the-street (so to speak) they are not going to be aware of the customs and nuances of your particular community. If there are hot topics or previous annoyances which your new and unsuspecting member trips up on, you really should handle such scenarios with calmness and decorum. There are tried and tested methods (FAQs, stickies, links to previous posts, etc) which are used almost ubiquitously on other forums and online communities exactly for this purpose. Taking wider issues out on the new guy is usually considered bad form. And to those who think I am an old member trying to intentionally irritate or inflame; honestly? Who has the time for that?

So before I knew there was a problem with people asking for advice on purchasing workshop items, my initial intention was genuinely to find out what you guys bought initially and what you would/have changed if you were to do it all again. The idea being to avoid any newbie purchasing pit falls, which tends to happen when starting a new hobby (I know this has happened to me in the past). I thought this would be more fun for you guys than a simple, "pick my machine for me" thread. I guess it backfired – apologies for that.

As limited as my knowledge is, I do understand that the capabilities of the machines available vary in some way, meaning that some are more applicable for certain tasks than others. However, it's difficult for me to pin a lot of these down since I can't say for sure whether I will be; "making model warships" or "boring out motorcycle cylinders", etc. I'm looking for a mill and a lathe to expand my workshop, thus expanding the possible projects I may undertake. Ideally I'd like them both to be a general purpose as possible (if there is such a thing!).

Perhaps it would help if I provided you with the machines currently as the top of my list (I should add at this point that, as much as I don't want to go reinvigorate any 'new vs old' flame wars, I would be happy to take suggestions for either): Lathe wise my two top choices are either a second hand Colchester Student, if I can find one from a source that I can trust or a Warco WM250 (£1625.00). On the milling machine side I've been hovering around the Warco VMC (£1932.00), which would leave me with nearly £2k for accessories.

Unreasonable? Way off the mark? What have I missed?

Finally to clear up a few previous questions:

• Not sure why you guys think I need to build a shed with that budget
• Workshop is a double garage with a re-enforced concrete floor and insulated tiled roof
• Budget will not need to extend to other tools – I already have pillar drills, grinders, etc

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 10/03/2019 20:43:54:

Wowsers. Looks like I stepped on a bear trap with this one.

Firstly I'd like to say to you guys who have been overly negative in this post; you must understand that when someone comes in off-the-street (so to speak) they are not going to be aware of the customs and nuances of your particular community. If there are hot topics or previous annoyances which your new and unsuspecting member trips up on, you really should handle such scenarios with calmness and decorum. There are tried and tested methods (FAQs, stickies, links to previous posts, etc) which are used almost ubiquitously on other forums and online communities exactly for this purpose. Taking wider issues out on the new guy is usually considered bad form.

Ah, so it's all our fault for picking on you. Okaaaaay……

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by Dave Halford on 10/03/2019 11:40:11:

I used to believe that these were genuine enquiries however I now think these questions can all be answered by the original poster in the first place as if you can't work out what machine you need, how can you possibly work out how to use it?

Therefore these posts are purely intended to inflame and like Andrew above, I also think they should be deleted/banned even though they appear to come from people new to the hobby. I might be wrong, but how can you come up with a budget and yet not have an idea of what to spend it on.

Posted by David Standing 1 on 10/03/2019 21:13:55:

Ah, so it's all our fault for picking on you. Okaaaaay……

I guess any interested parties should decide that for themselves.

Interesting that it should be you who replied though.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Lee, as you have discovered this topic has come up before, the difficulty for making a recommendation is defining exactly what you want to do with the machinery, as I said before if you can define exactly what you want then the options available will fall into place, the more specific the question the more precise and helpful the answers will be.

Mike

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

To be quite honest, when I read the OP and first few replies, I likened it to a computer program input and output.

Rubbish in, rubbish out. If you don't supply it with the correct data, you cannot expect a sensible result from the computer program, however good it might be. Seems this thread fits that analogy quite well.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Lee,

Dont be put off lol. It seems like this topic in some form comes up a couple of times a month and it's not unreasonable to expect it will continue to do so. If you have not had a lathe or mill before, buying one to most people represents a significant expenditure so they want to get it right. Sadly though therein lies the problem, what is right for me may not be at all right to you! By the very nature of people they will likely give answers based on what is right for them based on their experience good and bad doing what may be a million miles away from what you envisage doing. Andrew's point about size is a fair one, if you want to make watches you don't want a Colchester and a Bridgeport! So a fair few will answer a vague question with another – what do you want to do?

FWIW I think given you don't know what you want to make, your mentioned choices of machine are not bad and will give you plenty of scope to find out (as long as you don't end up deciding you wanted to make a watch!). I was considering a Warco mill myself, as it happens I managed to get an old British machine which now I have it I am very happy with, appreciate its versatility of horizontal spindle and vertical head in one machine and I now realise I would have been frustrated by the Warco. But that is just me for my particular interest and I wouldn't spend time trying to convince you that you should do the same! It sounds like you have done some research and come up with a workable plan, so if you are happy with that, go for it.

Sadly I fear even if you had pitched your question in a different way and listed the machines you have identified from the start there would still have been negative comments, sucking of breath through teeth and comments "ohh I wouldn't buy one of those"! It's just a no win situation. Only caution I would sound if buying a Colchester is hear it running, bearings and headstock guts are expensive and try and make sure it has not been used in production for 20 years with the associated bed and slide wear. Other than that, go for it, you won't know really if they are right for you until you have them and use them! I have been using machine tools for 40 years on and off and even a poor one can turn out reasonable work if you know what you are about.

Paul.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 10/03/2019 21:37:42:

Posted by Dave Halford on 10/03/2019 11:40:11:

I used to believe that these were genuine enquiries however I now think these questions can all be answered by the original poster in the first place as if you can't work out what machine you need, how can you possibly work out how to use it?

Therefore these posts are purely intended to inflame and like Andrew above, I also think they should be deleted/banned even though they appear to come from people new to the hobby. I might be wrong, but how can you come up with a budget and yet not have an idea of what to spend it on.

Posted by David Standing 1 on 10/03/2019 21:13:55:

Ah, so it's all our fault for picking on you. Okaaaaay……

I guess any interested parties should decide that for themselves.

Interesting that it should be you who replied though.

Why is that interesting? Do you guys know each other already?

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Hopper on 10/03/2019 23:46:21:

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 10/03/2019 21:37:42:

Posted by Dave Halford on 10/03/2019 11:40:11:

I used to believe that these were genuine enquiries however I now think these questions can all be answered by the original poster in the first place as if you can't work out what machine you need, how can you possibly work out how to use it?

Therefore these posts are purely intended to inflame and like Andrew above, I also think they should be deleted/banned even though they appear to come from people new to the hobby. I might be wrong, but how can you come up with a budget and yet not have an idea of what to spend it on.

Posted by David Standing 1 on 10/03/2019 21:13:55:

Ah, so it's all our fault for picking on you. Okaaaaay……

I guess any interested parties should decide that for themselves.

Interesting that it should be you who replied though.

Why is that interesting? Do you guys know each other already?

No, we don't know each other, but it was obvious who Lee's 20:43 post was pointed at

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

And to add, I like to think I have gone out off my way on a number of occasions to help people on this forum, but I really don't have much patience for guessing games, when the initial question is deliberately vague, it is a pointless exercise and just clogs up the forum.

Ask me about a Boxford 330 for example however, and I will fall over myself to help

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Well a cracking way of encouraging new people to the hobby I reckon. Guilty til proven innocent, very good. Absolutely first class P R.

Paul.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 10/03/2019 20:43:54:

 

Perhaps it would help if I provided you with the machines currently as the top of my list (I should add at this point that, as much as I don't want to go reinvigorate any 'new vs old' flame wars, I would be happy to take suggestions for either): Lathe wise my two top choices are either a second hand Colchester Student, if I can find one from a source that I can trust or a Warco WM250 (£1625.00). On the milling machine side I've been hovering around the Warco VMC (£1932.00), which would leave me with nearly £2k for accessories.

An interesting short list given your earlier statement about wanting to make larger things.

Although the VMC is physically larger than the typical bench top "model" mills it has about the same capacity than something like an X3 give or take 10mm so you are not really going to be able to do anything larger on it.

Likewise there is a big difference between a student and a WM250, for larger work I would have said at least the GH1230 would be what you should be looking at if you want Student capacity.

If you do want a Student size lathe  and a matching size mill then I think your only route with that budget will be to go down the second hand route as you won't get two new machines in that size range for the money let alone anything to go with them.

J

Edited By JasonB on 11/03/2019 07:37:58

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Starting again?

Oh gawd, nooooo! I don't wanna go through all that again!

Took me nearly 40 years to get where I am now, and buying the main machines is really only quite a small part of the process. It's finding and making the tooling and working up the techniques to use it that really soaks up the time and resource.

5k just doesn't go anywhere down that track.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 10/03/2019 19:36:17:

Sorry if I am being a grumpy old git!

I wouldn't worry about that.

Andrew

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 10/03/2019 23:39:31:

Lee,

Dont be put off lol. It seems like this topic in some form comes up a couple of times a month and it's not unreasonable to expect it will continue to do so. If you have not had a lathe or mill before, buying one to most people represents a significant expenditure so they want to get it right. Sadly though therein lies the problem, what is right for me may not be at all right to you! By the very nature of people they will likely give answers based on what is right for them based on their experience good and bad doing what may be a million miles away from what you envisage doing. Andrew's point about size is a fair one, if you want to make watches you don't want a Colchester and a Bridgeport! So a fair few will answer a vague question with another – what do you want to do?

FWIW I think given you don't know what you want to make, your mentioned choices of machine are not bad and will give you plenty of scope to find out (as long as you don't end up deciding you wanted to make a watch!). I was considering a Warco mill myself, as it happens I managed to get an old British machine which now I have it I am very happy with, appreciate its versatility of horizontal spindle and vertical head in one machine and I now realise I would have been frustrated by the Warco. But that is just me for my particular interest and I wouldn't spend time trying to convince you that you should do the same! It sounds like you have done some research and come up with a workable plan, so if you are happy with that, go for it.

Sadly I fear even if you had pitched your question in a different way and listed the machines you have identified from the start there would still have been negative comments, sucking of breath through teeth and comments "ohh I wouldn't buy one of those"! It's just a no win situation. Only caution I would sound if buying a Colchester is hear it running, bearings and headstock guts are expensive and try and make sure it has not been used in production for 20 years with the associated bed and slide wear. Other than that, go for it, you won't know really if they are right for you until you have them and use them! I have been using machine tools for 40 years on and off and even a poor one can turn out reasonable work if you know what you are about.

Paul.

Thanks for that Paul, very informative. I would certainly like to enjoy a nice old British (or similar build construction) machine. However with my current level of knowledge (low) and naivety (high – I do not even know what I do not yet know) I am highly concerned about buying a "dog" and regretting the whole ordeal.

Rebuilding or regrinding these machines myself is certainly not in my current skill-set.

Posted by JasonB on 11/03/2019 07:33:03:

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 10/03/2019 20:43:54:

Perhaps it would help if I provided you with the machines currently as the top of my list (I should add at this point that, as much as I don't want to go reinvigorate any 'new vs old' flame wars, I would be happy to take suggestions for either): Lathe wise my two top choices are either a second hand Colchester Student, if I can find one from a source that I can trust or a Warco WM250 (£1625.00). On the milling machine side I've been hovering around the Warco VMC (£1932.00), which would leave me with nearly £2k for accessories.

An interesting short list given your earlier statement about wanting to make larger things.

Although the VMC is physically larger than the typical bench top "model" mills it has about the same capacity than something like an X3 give or take 10mm so you are not really going to be able to do anything larger on it.

Likewise there is a big difference between a student and a WM250, for larger work I would have said at least the GH1230 would be what you should be looking at if you want Student capacity.

If you do want a Student size lathe and a matching size mill then I think your only route with that budget will be to go down the second hand route as you won't get two new machines in that size range for the money let alone anything to go with them.

J

Jason, my naivety showing though again I think. When I said larger, I was alluding to larger than what I perceive model making to require. Certainly not Abom74 large in any case. From what I have seen when watching my favourite hobby machinists at work, a Colchester Student and a Bridgeport would be wonderful. However, I remember reading somewhere (this forum perhaps?) that for a beginner such as myself it would be better to go for a new import from a reputable dealer/importer than to roll the dice on a second hand machine from the 1960s for example.

The trouble is; I don't know anyone who either owns a machine like this or knows anything about them. Thus any knowledge I acquire has to come from online resources and books. Nougats like "… if buying a Colchester is hear it running, bearings and headstock guts are expensive …" are invaluable to myself and people in my position.

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Lee,

Where abouts are you located? Maybe a nearby club or enthusiast could show you their kit and give advice?

Mick

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Ah, that reminds me. I forgot to thank Chris for his kind offer to pop round and see his setup. I was actually driving near you (Manchester => Bristol) on Sunday, but I had the wife and baby daughter with me, so had to give it a miss unfortunately. Thank you anyway, that's very kind of you to offer.

Posted by Plasma on 11/03/2019 16:01:36:

Lee,

Where abouts are you located? Maybe a nearby club or enthusiast could show you their kit and give advice?

Mick

Currently located in Bristol.

[Toby ClarkParticipant @tobyclark30298]

Hi Lee:

Thanks for your post. As a newbie (and a journalist) myself, I thought that was an eminently sensible, open way to phrase your question – and let the respondents frame their replies according to how they enjoy the hobby! I didn't expect the firestorm of ennui, suspicion and grumpiness you got back.

I'll certainly think twice before asking for help here…

Courage!

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Lee, a bit far from me but like I said, there will be a steam club or similar somewhere near you I'm sure.

I'm not a member of any clubs and picked up my knowledge from books and the interwebs.

My machines are all second hand and there's a lot of be said for finding a good used machinery dealer who will guide your purchases. I've dealt with some sterling guys both in person and online.

Hope you find the right gear for you.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

I was a little surprised at the tone of some of the responses on here, usually its a helpful place. If people are annoyed that a thread has cropped up again maybe just hold back on responding?

I would reiterate though; this will be easier if you can do a bit of research into what sort of work you plan to do; where do your interests lay outside of workshop work? Maybe that will help with the steering?

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Thanks for taking the time to say that Tom. Although I hope that this hasn't perturbed you too much. The forum seems pretty friendly in the main. There certainly seems like there are some great guys on here who are well worth sticking around for.

No worries Mick. Looking for a club might be a little difficult considering my "vague" interests. I will however, continue to keep an eye out for some nice looking machines. If anyone would like to recommend a reputable dealer, I would be sure to check them out.

Unfortunately Jon, I seem to be caught in what I can only describe as a chicken an egg type situation. If I were to describe my hobby I think, like so many others, the hobby is the workshop itself. I like toys, sorry tools! When I bought my first drill I didn't really have a purpose or a project in mind, I just knew that sooner or later I was going to need to put a hole in something. However since then I have literally worn out more drills than I like to admit. Likewise when I bought my welder(s) – I didn't buy them to fix cars or build railings. I bought them because I knew I wanted to make things with metal. Same goes for the lathe and the mill. I wish to continue making things with metal, only now slightly rounder and with more slots.

To be frank, I'll probably just end up making more tools and accessories for the machines themselves.

Surely I can't be the only one? Everyone else knew they wanted to build planes, trains and automobiles?

[Author]

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