Helping young people

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Ady

I agree that such an association might be of value – there is a site which lists all (?) the ME clubs in the country and there certainly used to be a federation of clubs in the south of England. If such federations still exist these would surely be the right place for guidance etc. None of this will be for "free" however so are clubs (and their members) willing to pay the costs of such an organisation? I don't think that the model press – that are, after all, only businesses existing for profit – can be expected to enter areas like this.

Norman

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I don't think that the model press – that are, after all, only businesses existing for profit – can be expected to enter areas like this.

If you don't plan for future profits then you will have no future profits?

It should really have been sorted out a long time ago when the hobby was buoyant.

The ME magazine was for decades the sole focal point which all the UK clubs could refer to on a regular basis

Edited By Ady1 on 11/05/2014 12:36:24

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by NJH on 11/05/2014 12:25:20:

Ady

I agree that such an association might be of value – there is a site which lists all (?) the ME clubs in the country and there certainly used to be a federation of clubs in the south of England. If such federations still exist these would surely be the right place for guidance etc. None of this will be for "free" however so are clubs (and their members) willing to pay the costs of such an organisation? I don't think that the model press – that are, after all, only businesses existing for profit – can be expected to enter areas like this.

Norman

Been paying for years **LINK**

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Thanks Lofty

That's just what I was thinking of – but it was a bit vague ( what isn't these days!) as it's some years since I was a club member.

So Ady Good News! you will see, if you follow Lofty's link, that the guidance you advocate IS available.

Regards

Norman

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

The current issue of ME (4482) has an article about the subject of young model makers, which I think is directly relevant, some are even working with a Lathe.

Edited By V8Eng on 11/05/2014 18:51:52

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

As I understand it, the folk who need to be vetted are those who "regularly come in to contact" with young or vulnerable people. So try to get together with other members of your club so that you only guide/instruct/demonstrate on an irregular basis.

You do not want to fall foul of the jobsworths who, lacking any real knowledge, say "NO", just in case, and to prevent then having to take any responsibility.

The ultimate in this kind of stupidity is the church that decided that even the bell ringers had to be CRB approved.

The list of groups needing approval verged on "If you are not CRB approved, you shouldn't come to church".

As a teacher, my wife was forbidden to oversee primary school children in the toilets.

(Not a tacit admission that the LEA was employing paedophiles was it? – but if you'd met some of the parents! Forgive me for being cynical and practical!)

My desperate worry is with so many folk hiding behind Health and Safety, and calling for written Risk Assessments, we are well on the way to breeding folk who WILL injure themselves, (because they have never learned to think for themselves and about their next action) because there was no warning sign posted up!

We NEED young folk in the hobby, to keep alive skills, and so that they get the satisfaction of making or repairing something. How many items are scrapped because some small part has failed, but no one knows where to obtain the parts, or how to fit them? In some cases, the repair that we are likely to make will result in a better, more reliable and durable product than the "built in obsolesence/cost reduced too far" item.

Encourage the youngsters, but train them to behave safely, but take care what you do in case you are accused of misbehaviour.

Full marks to the clubs and societies that do encourage and train young members! Keep up the good work!!

Howard

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

I quite agree with your sentiment Bogs, however, the rest of the world has moved on.

When I was three I lost part of a finger in a workshop accident, yes, three.. I was 'helping' (by generally getting in the way probably) when a new 6" vice was being fitted to the workbench, unfortunately didn't see my hands holding onto the top of the bench and put the vice down on my finger, result, a rush to the local A&E and a lifetime of being digitally challenged.

That was well over half a century ago, and could you imagine the sort of questions that would have been asked today, not to mention possible police and social worker involvement.

In 1983 at a public running day a child managed to get a small spark and subsequent burn damage to a T shirt. We offered to pay for the damage but the parent advised that it was a risk to be taken and that the damage was accepted as a result of the ride .

Two years ago, a similar occurance where a supposedly new Angora sweater on a child was damaged in the same way the parent said nothing to us at the time but went to the local press who contacted us to virtually demand compensation and to threaten negative publicity should we not comply.

Fortunately that was handled through our insurance company (many thanks to the Southern Federation for arranging that) and there would have been no way that we could have afforded the litigation bill if the case had gone to court.

So, while I think any advice on here is given with the best of intention, if you want to carry on in your own way please do, we on the other hand will try to do it correctly.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

"Angora sweater"

The times we now live in, any excuse and you end up getting faced with the possibility of litigation and it has been getting worse over the years, no doubt the downward spiral will continue.

The one thing the majority have not yet caught on to is the fact we all end up paying, as the insurance companies just increase their rates, places close down because they can no longer afford the fees etc.

Bit like you fine a utility company a few million quid, where do you think the money to pay the fine comes from, not like the directors are going to put their hand in their pocket, they just up the charges so we pay their fine, crazy or what.

I hate to think what things will be like in 50 years time and wonder what our children and our children's children have to look forward too.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Thanks for the link Lofty

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by Ady1 on 11/05/2014 11:31:30:

The smoothness of your dealings with the council will also depend heavily upon the individual you have dealing with your case

They are massively inconsistent, ranging from total moron to professional and decent

It's like dealing with the police in a third world nation, you never know what kind of git you're going to get

Ady, I am often at odds with some of the things you say, that is not to say I have no respect for them, I have a different opinion. However, you are so close to the bone on this one. Local Councils are no longer fit for purpose. The following statements are fact:

Bury council have a department which costs a fortune to run but the staff do nothing. Because the Council have a "Duty of Care" to it's employees, the don't sack them, they put them in a special department – like Playschool.

The Directors below the Chief Executive have NO QUALIFICATIONS, for anything, nor hands on experience either (check this yourselves) so they hire managers to do the actual work who do have the requisite qualifications and then run around all day having "meetings" demanding reports are 'on my desk first thing'.

I have no connection with Bury Council whatsoever (but I do have a very senior 'in&#39 nor do I live there. I am also reliably informed that this is the norm throughout the UK. The point that I would make is that these morons in positions of authority care – by and large – for themselves and their pensions so when someone comes along with a proposal or an idea which might sound as if it would make them actually have to do something or expose themselves to risk, they trolley out the old "Healt and Safety" or anything else they can think of to prevent it happening. I resent paying large amounts of money to my local Council as I know a large portion of it is mis-appropriated.

graham.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Just a thought:

Some years back solicitors in the UK were not allowed to advertise. Now we are continually bombarded with "Have you had an accident that wasn't your fault? Contact us and we'll make you rich." type of advertisements.

Now many many people are afraid to do anything for fear of being taken to court for minor accidents and insurance premiums rocket.. Cause and effect?

Russell.

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Today, it appears to me that most young people want to be a footballer, marry a footballer, win the lottery/bingo/scratch card and supplement their income by making some sort of claim, prompted by some very intrusive advertising. There is one advert running on the local radio station for a firm of solicitors which claims (or strongly infers) that it "costs your employer nothing, it is the insurance that pays out – as if it were some sort of bottomless pit.

On Saturday, walking around Harrogate, my friend – who has no vested interest in any of this – remarked on how few children there were walking about and that as a child he "would have loved to come here". Maybe we need to look at educating some of the parents?

graham.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Don't know if it would work in UK, but I would get to know the parents, work out the doe's and don's, and sort out what's going to happen, then do it. It might be easier for me here, because although the place is bigger now than when I arrived 30 years ago, the population is just a bit over 2000, so not much happens that nobody knows about.

Ian S C

[GaryMParticipant @garym]

I sometimes think we live in a very sick society where most of us can see things that we would change for the better but there doesn't seem to be an easy way of changing them. Those with right-wing views blame the loony left and provide examples of councils and hospitals wasting money and creating pointless jobs. Those with left-wing views blame unrestrained free market capitalism with examples of big business getting away with not paying taxes and abuse of workers rights. While we are all blaming each other the rich elite are doing very nicely, thank you, and are not being troubled by the likes of us lot.

But there are many things we could probably all agree on. As a minor example, who here is in favour of unsolicited phone calls from overseas. I bet they annoy all of us. Or how about junk mail? If I want something I am quite capable of finding out who can supply it.

Not that long ago all the staff at my place of employment were forced to be CRB checked because some parts of the organisation deal with children and vulnerable adults. In the area where I work we have no contact with either and some of us objected to this as unnecessary and a waste of time and money. To do it properly the manager of each group should review their staff and decide which ones needed checking but they decided it was easier to issue a blanket policy. We even contacted the CRB people themselves and were told we were correct. Nevertheless the management threatened us with disciplinary action for causing them trouble. We reluctantly complied feeling we had made our point. The thing that amused us was that "Human Resources" were shocked that some people were prepared to stand up to one of their diktats. I seem to spend less and less time doing the job I started thirty years ago and more time enabling others to tick boxes.

Sorry for the long rant and thanks for reading it.

Gary – looking forward to retirement.

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Another big problem with the CRB checks is the cost, my wife has to get them often. I think it's about £50 now each time. All it does is prove you don't have a record.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

As I see it politics is the one job you need no qualifications or training for. They all spend their time blaming every one else/every thing else, they should take a leaf out of the Japanese philosophy do not worry about blame just fix it.

Any of the checks CBR or otherwise does not mean children are 100% safe all it means is there is no one who has a record, there is still a chance there is a person who is capable of child abuse but has yet to be caught after all it took 25 + years to convict Peter Wright. So for 25 years after the offence he would have passed a CBR check.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

CBR checks for voluntary work are free

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Do you know – hassle, agro, politics, intrusive society , cost of CRB checks? I DON'T CARE. If just ONE child is saved from abuse as a result of checking then, in my book, they are worthwhile.

Norman

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

A rare post from Stub Mandrel…

Having run an organisation that dealt with all these issues, and part of a bigger federation that probably did as many activities with school age young people as any other in the UK, I can say this thread is a mine of both truth and total mis-information.

I had staff who were continually frustrated by schools who used CRB checks of people who had no contact with pupils (let alone the recurring contact which is supposed to be needed) as a proxy for effective and sensible child safety policies. This was brought home to me when I went to visit a school. I turned up at the door, pressed the buzzer, and a disembodied voice asked what I want. I said 'I have an appointment with <the head teacher>'. The door buzzed and unlocked and I was given directions, without even being asked for my name.

I could have been a parent with a restriction on access to their child, I could have been anyone capable of reading the Head's name on the notice outside. I bet they had all the requisite checks and policies in place when inspected by OFSTED.

That said, with staff who have the right attitude and understanding of child safety issues, the sky is the limit and you can do adventurous and rewarding activities with young people safely.

Neil (in civvies).

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by Gordon W on 12/05/2014 16:14:41:

Another big problem with the CRB checks is the cost, my wife has to get them often. I think it's about £50 now each time. All it does is prove you don't have a record.

CRB check is £40 but can take up to a fortnight, £80 gets you a CRB check in 48 hours. But you have to pay by cheque and no check is carried out until the cheque is cleared. You do the math.

graham.

[GaryMParticipant @garym]

I'd just like to add, good luck to Bob in doing what is undoubtedly a worthwhile thing. I also think we need to build a lot more resilience into society for the future. One reason I got into model engineering was as an offshoot of wanting to be able to repair things instead of throwing them out, so my main motivation is learning how to use the tools. I also like the freedom of being my own boss while in the 'shop.

Gary

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Bob,

I have sent you a PM on this subject. Please have a read.

Thanks, Ketan.

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

This is my last word on this subject.

My eldest son, who is now well into his thirties (!!!) works in one of the most deprived estates in Middlesbrough as something senior to do with youths and children. (I will not enlarge upon that).

He also works some weeks and weekends as "Housemaster" – they don't call it that anymore though – in homes where a variety of children are housed. Some of these children are so abused that the stories are harrowing. Others are so out of control they are locked up for their own safety and for the safety of those around them.

This boy of mine is the most disorganised person. I could weep when he calls me up about checking oil or tyre pressures or windscreen washer fluid (yes, really) as it is a reqular question and answer session, the same as the last time he called but I keep my mouth shut. Because we all cannot be everything. But my eldest has a natural talent. Children of all ages love him and trust him. He has made terrific progress in a job that I personally didn't think he would like. He has been interviewed and written about. With some of the children – 6 years to sixteen is the age group he usually works with – he has made real progress. It is not a job I could do, he loves it.

He has had his car stolen twice and burned out once, by the same kids he is trying to help (well, their "mates" really). You have got to be made of different stuff to do this as he just shrugs it off. AT LEAST three days a month are 'development' days where he is forever going on one course or another just to keep up with changes and changing legislation.

If you manage to get this off the ground Bob, in any form, my hat goes off to you.

graham.

[Bob McParticipant @bobmc91481]

Hi all…

Although it has been some time (4 yrs) since the last post on this thread which covered many aspects of the problems..but could anyone tell me if anything has changed..? do schools now have any more practical technology subjects apart from cooking? are there any more youngsters seen at Model Engineering shows?… are there any tv programs which feature model engineering? or practical skill programs aimed at youngsters..?

I am enquiring about this for my own interest and someone at the uk school of child education sciences who is doing a research project on the subject and seeks the opinions and/or experiences of model engineers and hopefully he will join the forum.

After visiting a number of Model Engineering shows I have to say it looked more like a Darby & Joan club meeting with older gentlemen in preponderance with very few youngsters, is there a connection between this and the running down of school interest in engineering skills..?

…Bob..

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Bob
Schools haven’t done anything engineering (as in machining etc) related for decades – certainly not when I was at school in the 80s.
However, stuff like robotics, software, 3D printing, laser cutting is popular with some younger people. And those are the skills that the engineers of today and tommorow need. If you go to a robotics event rather than a model engineering show you would see plenty of younger people. A younger person would be far more excited about building a drone than a model loco – and that is normal.
Andy

[Author]

Posts