Hello… lots of advice needed

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Posted by IanT on 26/02/2014 10:12:54:

There are several ways to approach this and if money is very short, then various simple angle plates mounted on the faceplate (find some thick angle iron and true it in the lathe) will get you going.

Would the idea here be to end up mounting work in a similar way to a (Keats?) cylinder clamp? With bolts going through the angle to a section of bar, threaded to take the bolts? Or maybe even a couple of small U-bolts? How would I true the faces of the angle… clamp the angle in the carriage/toolpost and milling doo-dah or a fly-cutter on the spindle? Or could I mount a block of hardwood to the faceplate, true it, then glue some suitable abrasive paper to the wood to make a grinding pad turning on the spindle (sorry if this sounds like sacrilege!) and bring the angle up to that?

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hi Steven,

All the bits needed will add up if you have to buy them 'new', so this (and the time and effort involved) should certainly be considered before you start off any project like this 'piece meal'. At one time I would have suggested you look for evening classes and you could have not only learned some lathe basics but also made all of the bits you need but these courses are few and far between these days. Some ME Societies/Clubs do have machine tools on site, or almost certainly a kind person who will help you out if asked nicely (I'd suggest you take your Adept along with you if you do decide to visit one – maybe one of those dreadful (elitist?) Myford owners will take pity on you!

Thinking out loud. You don't need very large pulleys and whilst I have seen them made of "laminated" wooden parts, I'm not sure I'd really recommend it. They might be enough to get you going though. Have a look at how Taig (Peatol in UK) and Sherline drive their small lathes & mills. The pulleys are really quite small (as are the 'V' grooves) and they use very strong (but thin) 'Gates' belts. I use these on my Taig milling head.

(Just popped off to check mine). They are about 2.25" widest diameter x 1.5" deep with six belt grooves, so they would not need very large lumps of raw material to make. Alternatively, I think I paid about £10 each for mine a few years ago (Peatol UK). I will certainly use this type of drive system myself on any other small devices I make, although I'll make my own pulleys (3-4 speed) next time around. Coming full circle, small hardwood pulleys of this nature, with (say) four grooves might work for you as an interim solution. Back to how to turn them of course – unless you can you find a woodworker to turn them for you? Countershafts are not too hard to make either.

Of course I've also noticed someone is selling a Sieg Baby '0' lathe for £150 on this site (not a recommendation – just an observation) which may give you a potential framework to think about how much you should spend on the Adept? And whilst I'm thinking about it, you cannot (simply) speed control most single phase A/C motors by the way, they tend to run at approx.1400 or 2800 rpm dependant on the number of poles they have.

Ok, enough for now, time to make the Missus a cuppa. I did look to see how many of the 'Adept' articles I have by the way. I have the Dividing Head & The Filing Rest ones, although there is nothing particularly novel there. If you want them I'll scan them for you (pm me with your email). The 'Smokerings' turned out to be a request from the Editor for information on Adept lathes, as his son had purchased an incomplete on at a Club sale. He later reported he was inundated with offers of information and replacement parts! May be worth trying?

Anyone here got some small pulleys for Steven??

Regards,

IanT

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

You can make wooden pulleys though it would help to have a wood lathe for that. You might be able to do a bit with a variable speed electric drill but it is rather noisy.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Sorry, just seen your latest post Steven (somehow missed it just now)

I wasn't even thinking of a Keats plate here – just a simple angle plate to begin with. You can use your faceplate to hold a fly-cutter and clamp the angle in the tool post – or you can practice your filing skills – it doesn't need to be perfect at this stage. The angle plate can be used in several ways, but the most basic is to support round/square material on the faceplate, whilst you face or drill it. There are several simple ways to centre the work, just takes some thought and ingenuity. I'm not suggesting any of this will be convenient or easy but it will get you going. Once you can do basic turning operations (no matter how convoluted the process) you can start improving your machine and gradually evolve your lathe into a better tool.

I'm using two centres and a DTI here to centre this piece in the 4-jaw but the principles are the same for even the most rudimentary set-up like using angle plates to hold the work. A very simple pointer will work if you don't have a DTI and anything with a pointy end and a hole in the backend will do instead of the centre I'm using.

As I've already said, this is not a convenient (nor a long term) solution but it is possible to bootstrap any lathe into a better tool. It's just a question of whether you really want to do this kind of stuff – rather than take the much easier route and simply buy a better machine to begin with. In the old days, people had no money and therefore little choice but to make/improve everything themselves. These days we are all relatively much better off but some people still enjoy doing this kind of work. To be honest, I probably have as much fun playing with/cursing my old tools as I do (trying) to make my models – but I will admit, it's not for everyone.

Regards,

IanT

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Again, thanks to all who have posted so far, your insights are invaluable.

I'll make the effort to clean the lathe up and get some pictures up this weekend, so you can see exactly what I have. Who knows, I'm saying it seems in fine condition but an experienced eye might recognize it as junk from the off and the decision will be made for me. Which would be a shame, as I think it would be quite nice to say 'Look at this engine that I made on this lathe that I made all the bits for…'

Please excuse me if I don't post anything tomorrow until the evening; My workplace has some strict data protection/information security policies, and while I can keep an occasional eye on the web I am forbidden from logging into forums or using my mobile inside the building.

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

IanT

I have been meaning to make a centre finder, no need your picture above shows I already have one. Never seen that method before thanks

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Hi Stephen ,

You might be able to find enough pulleys to get you going in junked car parts , office equipment and domestic appliances .

Sewing machine and domestic appliance repairesr sometimes have a range of pulley’s and belt drive parts for sale .

Pulleys don’t actually have to be ‘ the right ones ‘ – if they will hold the belt and run true they will serve .

Don’t overlook moulded plastic pulleys – more than adequate and readilly available . Sometimes found in model shops but plenty on line .

One impecuneous modeller years ago made some pulleys from two tin lids back to back with half a cotton reel for the hub – not recommended practice but where there was a will there was a way !

Regarding direct drive without a countershaft there is no fundamental reason why not but buying an appropriate slow speed or controlled speed motor might be costly .

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

[thomas oliver 2Participant @thomasoliver2]

Steve, For 50 years I have owned, modified and used a Wizard Lathe, made in my hometown of Houghton-le-Spring, for making just the sort of stuff you are interested in, so I feel I can make a few suggestions. The Wizard is a slightly superior version of your Adept. You have problems in work holding and tool holding – the simple tool clamp will slow you down, and bell chucks are an abomination – I have two. My lathe has a hollow 1/2in spindle and tailstock barrel which is very useful. Your 3/8in BSF threaded nose is the reason for the short 0MT centres. Mine has the full 0MT sizes. I was in a club flying control line in my twenties and we broke needle valves with monotonous regularity, so I managed to turn some 0MT blanks between centres. Mounted and drilled in situ they made pretty accurate MS Collets. With these I churned out dozens of very nice needle valves for my friends. Mild steel is OK for occasional use and they are still OK, and cost me nothing. I could not have afforded a 3-jaw SC anyway, Your small spindle precludes this path. I rarely find the need for using a faceplate and it would be better uses as a backplate for a chuck. A new 3-jaw will cost you £50 and do not be misled by the nice shiny appearance. I have had to return 2 to wellknown dealers which were grossly innacurate. The biggest improvement I made was to make a 4-way toolpost to mount knife, parting, chamfering and round nose tools. These will cover a lot of your requirements. Someone mentioned converting to collets. I have recently converted my Wizard into a super accurate instrument lathe. I bought a Collet holder with a 1/2in spindle from a firm called CTC Tools of Hongkong ( Run by a Dutchman and very efficient) For about one third of the price charged by UK dealers, I bought a full set of 8 collets from 3/32in to 3.8 in and the collet holder with spindle. I replaced the crosslide spindle on the lathe with an oversize threaded one as it was clapped, and I now have a super little lathe which I do not need so much as I have a Pultra. The only drawback is the lack of a through bore. The spindle is very tough but with a TC drill I have managed to drill out to a fair depth. They do have a similar kit with a 10mm spindle so you could easily ream out your headstock a few thou. to fit. This would now allow you to grip small milling cutters securely and do light milling. For milling you would normally need a vertical slide but by progessively packing up a job with strip, you can emulate the vertical adjustment and do some decent milling, possibly with the material clamped under the original tool clamp The next big step forward is to provide some sort of indexing. On my Boxford I have a large alloy disc drilled with 60 holes and a detent held on an arm. This enables you to drill accurately spaced holes in say a cylinder head. Having only one drill chuck is restrictive. Try boot sales for a few of 1" sized . and adapt them. This enables you fit centre drill, tapping drill, and tap for repetetive tapping. One of your first jobs should be to make a 13/16th tailstock die holder. Fit knobs to all the handles – much easier to turn, as shown on some of Lathes.co.uk pictures.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

A small update concerning my drive motor… It is still untested but I thought I'd give you the specs from the plaque on the side.

230 – 250 volts

50 HZ

Phase 1

Amps 2 – 15

H.P. 1/3

R.P.M. 6300 (is that a bit quick?)

I have measured the shaft (with my new eBay digital calliper) at 8.0mm diameter and 34mm length, with a threaded bit on the end (thread size unknown)

Will this suffice? Or is it a bit "fierce"?

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Doe the motor make a slight buzz when you turn it? 6300 rpm is more than twice the speed a single phase induction motor can spin on 50 Hz. If it buzzes it is a probably a commutator motor and will probably not be suitable to drive a lathe – too fast and prone to run away without something like a fan load on it.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

It makes a rubbing noise when turned. Not sure how much of this is from the comm and how much is from the bearings/bushings. It definitely has a commutator, if that's what you mean, I can see it through the casing. With big ass brushes like 2 of my thumbs each… It hasn't cost me anything I liberated it from my grandad's garage (if he was still around he'd put me right).

What spec of motor should be powering a little lathe like mine?

Incedentally the lathe is now dismantled and soaking in some degreaser. I guess I'm taking a chance disturbing the gibbs but it was caked in grime. I'll get it built back up in the next day or so and show it to you all…

[michael mParticipant @michaelm]

Hi Steve

I was interested to read your post as I also started with a super adept lathe so I think I'm qualified to make some observation and comments and offer some encouragement. It was back in my late teens. I had very little cash and no engineering background but fortunately I had enthusiasm (as we all do at that age), determination and also, very importantly, patience. (Not so common at that age). I was also blessed with a friend who's father was a time-served engineer and despite having zero interest in model engineering as such he was hugely helpful to me and I'll never forget his kindness. My primer, and it has been recommended by another poster was L C Mason's "Using the Small lathe". I'd strongly urge you to get a copy. If you can, in addition find someone with engineering experience to stand over you , guide and advise you, then you'll be well on the way. I appreciate that time-served engineers are a bit thin on the ground these days but there are plenty of model engineers out there and my experience has been that most, as you've found on the forum, will happily help you despite their modelling discipline being possibly different to yours. One of your local ME societies would surely be a good place to start. True, as in the rest of society, there's always a percentage of self-promoters, armchair engineers, congenital critics, auto-ego massagers and pedants, even on the forum (yes, really) but as another poster has pointed out you come to spot them.

Coming back to the Super Adept, I completed, with the aforementioned help, LBSC's Mollyette and I can tell you that the buzz you'll get from completing your first working engine is a wonderful experience that money could not buy. You'll be hooked. The machine as you have by now learnt has it's limitations but remember that where there's a will there's a way. There was once an article in the ME by someone who, albeit with a degree of improvisation, had made a 2-1/2 gauge model of a GNR Atlantic on such.

LBSC in his book about building "Tich" refers to people turning wheels for a 3-1/2 inch gauge "Juliet" on a Super Adept. Though you may not be intending to make a "Tich" I would strongly recommend this book also for your purchase, it was written in the days when most people had to make do with what they'd got rather than continually flashing a credit card and he, coming from an impecunious background was aware of the difficulties. Theres a wealth of advice in there. The book, along with Mason's was my bedtime reading for a long while.

Duty now calls but I'll post later with some comments on the practicalities of using the machine but will close here by saying that I wish I hadn't parted with the Super Adept when I acquired something larger.

Michael

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

My Adept lathe has a 180 W capacitor start induction motor 1450 rpm (I think), it has a 1 1/4" pulley driving to an Adept counter shaft, that has a 6" pulley, and on the side driving the lathe there is a pair of pulleys that match the ones on the lathe, but opposite, big to small, small to big. The two drive belts are 5 mm heat joined plastic.

I don't think the lathe would be too uncomfortable with around 200W motor, but I would stay with 1450 rpm, or you would need a much larger pulley on the counter shaft. Ian S C

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Do you have the sizes of the two 'V's on the Adept Ian – they don't look that big.

IanT

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

On my lathe the larger of the two pulleys measures 51.5mm approx and 41mm in the vee, the smaller is 39.5mm approx, 30mm in the vee.

 

Steve.

I should say these are approximate diameters.

And the width of the vee is about 8.5mm…

Edited By Steven Greenhough on 01/03/2014 12:05:39

Edited By Steven Greenhough on 01/03/2014 12:06:57

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

You are actually in luck with that motor. You can use a 'drill speed controller' with it to bring the speed down a bit, well a lot. The sort I am referring to are for mains drills not modern DC drills and DC motor powered lathes. Longer term an induction motor would be better but this is a starting point.

such as this

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Posted by Bogstandard2 on 01/03/2014 17:30:40:

Steven,

Now that everyone has had their say, let me give you a little advice, as I have spent at least the last ten years trying to give beginners GOOD advice.

I had a small Adept through my hands a few years ago.

…He uses it for hand graving small brass fittings for his models, about the only thing it is useful for. If you tried to use it, not having any experience at all, you would be throwing it up the yard after a few hours use and a lot of wasted material and money.

If you don't get rid of it or just forget about it for now, you will end up spending lots of pennies on the damned thing and it would be absolutely useless for what you want it to do.

Save your money up a little, and buy yourself something that will do the job you want it to.

With regards to that ebay listing…

You may be lucky and get 50 quid for it here, I got the one for my mate for £10.

PLEASE, please, don't go wasting your well earned money on it.

John

Not a fan then?

I was hoping to get it 'working' without spending loads of money on it. That's kind of the point of my original post. That way should either it, or I, be cr@p then it wouldn't matter…

Is the problem the lathe's performance or it's capacity?

Steve,

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bogstandard2 on 01/03/2014 17:30:40:

PLEASE, please, don't go wasting your well earned money on it.

.

John,

I don't have any experience with the Adept, and I certainly can't argue against your logic IF the objective is simply to produce models in the most efficient manner.

But; don't you think that Steve could learn a lot about lathes by refurbishing this one [within his means] and generally "playing" with it? … That's why I suggested making a Bell Chuck, as a first project : Not because they are "good" but because it would be dirt-cheap, and no harm done if things go wrong. Using this primitive chuck for a while would teach him the principles of handling a four-jaw. <etc.>

I won't labour the point … I'm sure you get the gist.

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The Adept/Super Adept was the equivalent of a C0 'baby lathe' in its time, small cheap and basic, although the C0 is probably rather more advanced.

In its time it was an excellent entry point for the totally skint to get into model engineering. Some people lavished great care and attention on them, I have read of one being brought up to 'horological' standards.

If you would enjoy working on it and getting it up to a standard as much as using it, then keep it. If you want a usable and flexible lathe of similar capacity and modest price, without all the work, consider a C0, a Sherline or an old Unimat, among others.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 01/03/2014 19:24:19

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Steve,

I've just found this; some bedtime-reading for you.

MichaelG.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 01/03/2014 20:51:02:

Steve,

I've just found this; some bedtime-reading for you.

MichaelG.

I was reading that earlier today…

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Posted by Bogstandard2 on 01/03/2014 21:13:33:

MichaelG,

Look at it this way, he could spend say 40 or 50 squid on a almost decent chuck, a few more for a good enough motor, goodness knows how much on tooling, and the list can go on, and how is Steve to bring this lathe into a decent working condition with no experience or machinery to do it with? I would expect him not to have even the precision tooling and basic stuff like files, which are really the bare necessities for even a modest reconstruction..

I look at things logically and realistically, not pipedreams, which a lot of others have suggested.

Neil has a good idea with a baby lathes, but in my view that would be too small for what he eventually will require to start him on his journey.

I noticed, like a lot of beginners, Steven hasn't a lot of money, but you have to look at things realistically, so it would better maybe if there is someone fairly local to him who could take him under his wing and let him use their machinery and instruct him at the same time, until there was enough cash in his pot maybe to buy a second hand mini lathe with a bit of tooling.

In fact, if Steven has transport, I most probably only live about 30 miles away, and he is quite welcome to use my workshop, almost at any time, plus he would get instruction on how to use the equipment as well as I am not using it at this time, as I am waiting to go into hospital. Maybe then he could make the decision whether he likes it enough to carry on or not.

I myself trained a very good model engineer from almost scratch a few years ago, purely by using emails with a bit of one to one occasionally..

Unfortunately, I don't think he is able to do model engineering any more, but his site is well worth a look.

**LINK**

People like Steven need all the support and good information they can get, they are the future of this hobby, which in my view is on the decline.

John

Hi John,

Firstly let me say that your comments have thrown me a tad; after the unabashed enthusiasm from most posters in my thread, I was initially ready to dismiss your seemingly negative input, BUT PLEASE PLEASE accept that that isn't the view I have come to. I was looking for opinions from all perspectives and you have certainly backed yours up.

I have been visiting the "Start Model Engineering" site you linked to for about 18 months, off and on, and if the models shown have been built by a student of yours theyn they are a credit not only to him, but to you too.

Thanks too for your offer of practical help; Ultimately I guess I will need an 'old hand' to show me the ropes, I'm a good reader, but often there is something written down that cannot be understood without some form of demonstration.

I should explain, to all of you, that I haven't just happened upon a little lathe and thought "Oooh what's something cool I can do with that..?"

My interest was initially sparked when taking my eldest daughter to Brookside Garden Centre (Poynton, near Stockport) to ride their trains (and see Santa!), about 7 or 8 years ago. My memory was jogged back to when my Dad would take me to Dinting Railway Junction near Glossop, because I vaguely remember (imagined?) riding a small elevated steam railway there. I guess this would have been 3.5 or 5 inch gauge? This then got me thinking about how small and manageable 'real' steam could be, and how attainable. This is when I found the "Cracker" plans on the web, which were saved and printed, but also a build by a guy in the States of a scaled up and regulated Cracker than he called Nina. It was a stunning looking thing, and was fitted with an array of controls that meant the engine could be 'driven' whilst walking along with it. These kinds of models are what I aspire to build! Would I like to build 3.5 or 5 inch passenger pullers? Yes, but I know that's not going to happen, at least not any time soon.

I have copies of "The Amateur's Late" and "Model Engineering A Foundation Course", I have read most of each and, I think, understood some of what was in there…

I regularly check for evening courses at the local 'poly', but they don't seem to exist.

I doubt I would 'choose' the lathe I have but it's what I've been given. Some of it's limitations are obvious, even to me, but if it is genuinely crud then I guess I will have to sort something else out. Wouldn't mind seeing it running and giving it a go though?

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Just read it myself too Steve. Seems I missed some material in ME on your little lathe (I just searched on "Adept" ).

Too late now but I'll check tomorrow to see if I have the 17th July '47 'Rebuilding' article. If I do, I'll scan it for you.

John's concerns are well founded but if you still want to push on with this project then I think there are probably worse ways you could spend your spare time – like just watching TV all evening for instance (something I've just done).

Anyway, small steps and we'll see how we go. Goodnight everyone.

IanT

Edited By IanT on 02/03/2014 00:23:36

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 01/03/2014 19:18:27

John,

… I certainly can't argue against your logic IF the objective is simply to produce models in the most efficient manner. … <etc.>

.

Steve,

John has stated his case, shown his credentials, AND made you the offer of a lifetime !!

I have quoted my own earlier post simply because I want to "set the scene"

If your objective is to build and run a "Cracker" then I'm sure that John's approach is correct. … Personally; I would find exploring the hidden capabilities of the Super Adept more rewarding [but perhaps that's my problem]: I had never heard of the "Cracker" until I read this thread.

With my own somewhat blinkered view, I must admit I was pleased to see your concluding remark in your post of 00:22:16 this morning …

You probably need to make some strategic choices.

MichaelG.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by IanT on 27/02/2014 20:49:40

I'm using two centres and a DTI here to centre this piece in the 4-jaw but the principles are the same for even the most rudimentary set-up like using angle plates to hold the work.

Hi Ian,

While I use this method on squared bar stock, I have often found difficulty getting a true center on round stock.

Using this method only seems to get the center pop running true, not necessarily the whole diameter of the bar.

Any tips?

[Author]

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