Hello… lots of advice needed

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Good evening, my name is Steve and I'm in Droylsden, Manchester. I hope you can help me. I have a lot to ask so maybe I should bullet-point…

I want to make small live steam engines, static engines and 32/45 mm gauge loco's (Crackers, Jane/Janet clones, that type of thing). I also have a m***d Traction Engine that I would like to build a regulated double acting motor unit and a gas burner for.

Budget is, and is likely to stay, a major consideration. So is 'workshop space'. I already have various hand tools but for the purposes of my query it is machine tools, specifically a lathe(s), that I need advice with.

I have a lathe, but I don't know how to proceed with it. It was a gift; a Super-Adept hobby lathe. Now I've discovered that this lathe has quite a strong presence on line, but mostly as a show/discussion piece, not so much the practicalities of using one today. It appears to turn very smoothly with no play, and is not rusty in any major way. The carriage and slide seem to move smooth and free with no play. It came with a motor, not yet tried and with no pulley, some un-ground tool blanks of about a quarter inch, a couple of old dial indicators and a couple old micrometers. However I don't know whether the lathe is big enough or versatile enough.

And so to my questions:

1) Is a lathe of this small size capable of turning the sizes of stock I would need for my projects?

2) It has no chuck, just a face-plate. The spindle is a non-standard taper (so says the interweb) and the thread is 3/8 BSF (I think, again, 'web). The chuck size would be 50mm (originals were 2 1/2 inch) and 3 and 4 jaws in my price range are either 1X12 or 1X14 metric. Would I be able to get a spindle made to the same taper as the original, but with a suitable thread to mount the chuck(s)? Or would I get the lathe headstock machined to take a small, standard taper spindle? Or could the chuck(s) be adapted? I have not been able to find any chucks of this size (cheap) that are back-plate-mounted, nor would I have the confidence to perform this operation (yet) anyway.

3) The tailstock currently has a pointy center thing, and is the narrow end of a Morse 0 (web again) so I'm guessing something could be done to mount small drill chucks, taps and dies etc?(although it's hard to see how there would be any room left for work, the whole lathe cannot be much more than a foot long)

Basically I'm hoping someone with experience of the kind of models I wish to make, or of this or similar lathes, or ideally both, can impart a bit of guidance on the best way to proceed. Should I persevere with (read start spending who knows how much money on) this little old lathe, or should I be looking at a mini-lathe or maybe a Taig/Peatol as a known starting point?

Sorry for vague nature of my ramblings, I'm struggling to make decisions on how to proceed. Thanks in advance.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

I want to get started in ME (small scale live steam)

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Good Morning Steve, and Welcome!

I can't offer any advice on Live Steam, or specific to the Super-Adept

… but at least this reply will bump your post to the top.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/02/2014 08:54:43

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Lathes are a chicken and egg situation, suck it and see etc

Start with small simple engines like wobblers for example

Once you get some practical experience, dirty hands and swarf splinters in your flesh you will eventually be able to answer your own questions and be more certain about the route you yourself will want to take

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Steven,

Before you start making anything I suggest that you get a hold of a copy of "Using the small lathe" by L C Mason.

This is easily the best book to give you guidance on a small lathe of the same vintage as your Super Adept. You will learn all you will need to about starting up in this wonderful hobby.

Try advertising on this site or Homeworkshop site for any bits that you require I am sure there are people who will help you if they can.

Best of luck.

Eric

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hallo Steve,

I think I will preface my comments with this. If you want a quick and easy entry into Model Engineering then this little lathe might not be the best starting point. The Chinese 'baby' lathes are not too expensive and come with a wide range of accessories that are also not that expensive and which will enable you to do just about everything you want to do immediately.

Having said this, your Super Adept is quite capable of making most of the components for the kind of small engines/models you mention, albeit that you will have to make allowances sometimes (and give it a helping hand with a bit of hacksaw & file "prep" work). However, before you can proceed to any 'model' work you are going to have to make some simple accessories for your lathe. Whilst you can do a great deal of work on the face-plate (a very useful accessory!) it would be good to have a more convenient form of work holding.

There are several ways to approach this and if money is very short, then various simple angle plates mounted on the faceplate (find some thick angle iron and true it in the lathe) will get you going. You could also try to make your own backplates (so you could mount 3 & 4 jaw chucks) and use a suitable tap to thread them but this would not be an easy first task for a complete beginner.

I'm going to suggest a rather unusual approach but one that may be the best "get you going" solution for you at this time. You can buy ER chucks (e.g. it's a collet chuck mounted on a back plate) fairly cheaply these days, an ER16 chuck is available from Arc for £19.00 and will hold up to 10mm. The trick will be to bolt the ER chuck to your faceplate, hopefully using the existing bolt holes/faceplate slots. Once you have gently knocked this true, you will have a simple way to mount small work (or larger work on spigots!) and turn it. Just buy one or two collets to get you going (say 10mm & 4mm?).

This will turn your Adept into a small 'collet' lathe and let you learn the basics of turning. You will then eventually be able to step up to making the 'custom' fittings you need, like backplates and small tapers, which will let you fit the more traditional 3/4/drill chucks etc. The ER chuck will be enough to get you started on making some small model/engine components and make progress on your model projects that bit quicker. When you do eventually get around to making backplates, you can properly mount the ER chuck (and free up your faceplate). You will still find the ER chuck very useful workholder for many small parts and for also holding small end mills.

There are many other things you will need to learn but there are lots of books and other web based info available to read. You won't find too much specific to the Adept, but just think of it as being similar to a Unimat (try to find the Rex Tingley Unimat book) or the C0 baby lathe and see how others have improved their small machines to do the kind of work they want. You will start to understand how much of this (other) experience can be useful on your own lathe.

Hope this helps or at least gives you something to think about.

Regards,

IanT

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Steven.

Some thoughts on your lathe.

• Buy an independent 4 jaw chuck as this will do everything that a 3 jaw will and much more. You will soon get used to cantering round work in a 4 jaw chuck.
• your lathe does not have screw cutting facility so you will need to equip yourself with a tailstock die holder and a suitable tap wrench to use in the tail stock. I think you will find BA threads the most useful to begin with some ME threads later.
• You will also need a tailstock drill chuck and some HSS tool bits. Don't be tempted to buy carbide tipped tools as they have no use on a small vintage lathe.
• A 0-1" (or 25mm) micrometer is essential and perhaps a digital calliper from Aldi or Lidl (both cheap and cheerful but OK to get you started)

When I stated model engineering in 1962 my father gave me a Grindturn lathe that is a derivative of the Super Adept I just bought or was given bits and pieces as I needed them (money being tight) . People were very generous giving me odd pieces of steel and brass together with tools that were surplice to their requirements once they knew what I was doing. Over time you quite quickly acquire what you need.

Eric

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I have a Super Adept, had it for over 50 years, I would recommend that you get something a little larger, and more modern design. You will probably get most frustrated with the little Adept. I think the taper is no., 0 Morse Taper. Mine has a 2 1/2" four jaw chuck, and the spindle is threaded 3/8 BSF. Mine gets used on the rare occasion that I need some small part, and my main lathe is loaded with something I don't want to unload. The 1/4" HSS is good size, You could also use Silver Steel, these lathes when they came out in the 1920s 30s, they were designed to be treadle powered, but if you use a motor (mine is 180W) you will still need to make sure that the tool is sharp all the time, and take light cuts. The lead screw on the cross slide is 20tpi (Whitworth) so one turn = .050". Originally the lathe, complete with its stand, flywheel cost less than 3 pounds, which was maybe a month's wages or more. Give it a try but don't get too over enthusiastic, it will do a good job, but that's up to you. Ian S C

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Your lathe is easily big enough for 16mm and G1 locos and small marine engines for RC boats. Get along to your local ME club and you will probably find someone who can make a mounting for a small 4 jaw chuck in return for generous beer tokens. This will be worth the cost because at the very least it will increase the sale value of your little lathe if you do decide you want a bigger one.
One of the first things I got was a 1 in micrometer thinking it was necessary for accurate work but in practice the vernier caliper gets 20 times the use. The micrometer can come later (see below).

You will also recoup some membership cost of your club from the small tools you can get at sales and bring and buys or just letting people know you need a particular bit. Plus you can get lots of advice one to one.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Steve,

I've sent you a PM

MichaelG.

[merlinParticipant @merlin98989]

When reading calls for help such as this, I often think that it might be a help to know the county or area of the country that the enquirer is in.

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by merlin on 26/02/2014 15:18:39:

When reading calls for help such as this, I often think that it might be a help to know the county or area of the country that the enquirer is in.

The OP has quite clearly stated he is in Droylsden, that is in Manchester if you don't have a map.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I wish this forum would have a little flag symbol like some do for country at least, and maybe county too.

[merlinParticipant @merlin98989]

Quite right Oompa Lumpa, he does say Droylsden and my wife will tell you that that is the first mistake I have made this year.

Posters don't always give their area, though.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Great stuff guys, lots of good stuff which naturally opens up loads of other questions, but I think I may press on with the super, at least initially. Don't stop there though all suggestions are very welcome

Could anyone who might be local-ish to me suggest a ME club. I know there are a few around Urmston and Sale that build and run miniature loco's, but I think they are centered on 3.5 and 5 inch gauge passenger pullers (which are lovely but waaaaay out of my reach)

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Heretical I know, but looking at the silly prices that old machines attract on eBay perhaps you could auction it with a sensible reserve and if it sells buy a modern small Chinese lthe like the C0 from Arc. Though these don't have a wonderful reputation, Arc is a good supplier, the machines are quite nice, come with a 3 jaw chuck and there are lots of accessories available. If you are starting out, frankly the fewer variables the better!

[GaryMParticipant @garym]

Posted by Steven Greenhough on 26/02/2014 18:31:11:

……

Could anyone who might be local-ish to me suggest a ME club. I know there are a few around Urmston and Sale that build and run miniature loco's, but I think they are centered on 3.5 and 5 inch gauge passenger pullers (which are lovely but waaaaay out of my reach)

Hi Steven,

A couple of options:

Rochdale SMEE **LINK** in Castleton, Rochdale which might be only 3.5in and up.

Manchester Model Railway Society **LINK** in Sale which might be only O gauge and smaller.

Gary

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Don't know the current price/value of a Super Adept, mine cost 5 NZ pounds($NZ10) in 1963). Ian S C

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ian S C on 26/02/2014 23:12:05:

Don't know the current price/value of a Super Adept, mine cost 5 NZ pounds($NZ10) in 1963). Ian S C

.

Ian,

Have a look at ebay item 121281018737

Nicely kitted out, but …

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 27/02/2014 07:13:49

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Steve,

I was just thinking …

An interesting, and useful, first project for you would be to make an 8-Screw "Bell Chuck". This is a traditional accessory for the watchmaker's lathe, and you will find an illustration here.

They work much like a 4-Jaw chuck.

Making and using this would teach you a lot about work-holding, and the capabilities of your lathe.

Normally, they have a shank like the collets; but there is no reason why you could not make it screwed to fit the spindle nose. [Thinks: A "blanking cap" for pipe may be a good source of material.]

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Wade lathes had screw-fit Bell Chucks

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 27/02/2014 08:27:46

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Hi Steven ,

Interesting information about Adept lathes here :

http://www.lathes.co.uk/adept/index.html

In the 1940 – 1960 period there were several articles in ME about setting up , improving and making accessories for Adept lathes .

One man started with a bare lathe and made everything else for himself including chucks .

Perhaps someone with access to good index can tell you which issues .

Whether Adept is sutable for making smaller working models doesn’t have a simple answer .

In the past people have made astonishing things on these tiny types of lathe including complex clocks and steam engines certainly up to 2-1/2 inch gauge and even Tich’s and Juliet’s .

Anything remotely big is very hard going to machine though .

Unless you want to make the machine a hobby project in itself I suggest that you spend the minimum money and do the bare minimum to get it functional pro tem but aim to get a more modern small lathe when possible .

You’ll find a lot of information about smaller engines and the making of them on web sites devoted to specific gauges . Try :

The two 2-1/2 inch gauge societies .

Gauge 1 MRA .

SM32 Society – not sure of exact name .

RDG stock tiny chucks which could be adapted to fit Adept .

Remember that Adept is a tiny lathe with rather a weak spindle so don’t overload it !

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

[IanTParticipant @iant]

The people to contact for your kind of 32/45mm n/g locomotive is the 'Association of 16mm N/G Modellers' Steven.

Once you have got some basic equipment on your lathe you will be able to do quite a lot of the simple jobs involved in building the small 16mm engines that you mention. Many of these smaller bits will be in brass and you will just need to take it easy – in other words small cuts with sharp tools.

Rex Tingley (he of Unimat fame) always made it clear that these smaller machine tools were not massive metal removers and he strongly recommended (that for larger components – especially in steel) as much of the material be removed before machining. So he would hacksaw and file 'chunks' off his steel components to get them down to the rough size before final machining. This might sound a pain (and it is) but does actually save a lot of time and also allows these small tools to do work beyond their normal capability. Operations like 'parting' are also simply delegated to the hacksaw for instance. Chain drilling is another method of quickly removing metal when "roughing".

I would think that your Adept would be able to do most of the turned components for a small 16mm engine but you will have to accept that you will have to do more hand-work and that light cuts and very sharp tools are the order of the day. Even if your Adept is only capable of the lightest shavings, it will still eventually get things down to size but it will take a lot more patience than it would on a larger machine. However, you will learn a lot in the process and be in a much better position to understand what suits your modelling needs going forward. The Adept will probably get regulated to more specialist work eventually when/if you decide to buy a larger lathe but it will have taught you a great deal.

One other suggestion. I guess you may have to build your own motor/countershaft set-up, so read up on the turning speeds required and make sure your motorizing arrangements will be suitable for the materials you plan to turn (all this info is on the web).

Good luck.

IanT

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I'm on chauffeuring duties today – so just waiting for my 'passenger' before going out shopping!

A quick search of the ME Index reveals the following Adept references (Volume-Issue-Page):

99-2461-102 A filing rest for the Adept

115-2894-670 A dividing head for the Super Adept

147-3655-517 Postbag (letters)

162-3844-279 & 162-3847-488 Smokerings (Editor)

Regards,

IanT

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Posted by IanT on 27/02/2014 10:45:34:

One other suggestion. I guess you may have to build your own motor/countershaft set-up, so read up on the turning speeds required and make sure your motorizing arrangements will be suitable for the materials you plan to turn (all this info is on the web).

Good luck.

IanT

I have actually been looking at this, and have to say I'm a little bit disheartened by the price of the stepped v-pulleys, well v-pulleys in general to be honest. Looking at pictures, I'd need a little one for the motor, that then drives a big one on a shaft shared with a stepped pulley, driving a shaft with an inverted stepped pulley (to get my different ratios), then driving the little pulley on the lathe…

Could an A/C motor not be speed-controlled? I don't have the motor to hand so I can't tell you exactly what it's spec is.

If that's not feasible then could I make stepped pulleys (flat-belt? wooden?) myself

Most of the suggestions for making 'project' parts for the lathe sound quite fulfilling, but spending lots of dosh 'just' to make it spin… I'll be honest it's thrown me a little. This is where I wonder if I should be buying a lathe that's more of a known quantity.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/02/2014 08:16:55:

Steve,

I was just thinking …

An interesting, and useful, first project for you would be to make an 8-Screw "Bell Chuck". This is a traditional accessory for the watchmaker's lathe, and you will find an illustration here.

They work much like a 4-Jaw chuck.

Making and using this would teach you a lot about work-holding, and the capabilities of your lathe.

Normally, they have a shank like the collets; but there is no reason why you could not make it screwed to fit the spindle nose. [Thinks: A "blanking cap" for pipe may be a good source of material.]

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Wade lathes had screw-fit Bell Chucks

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 27/02/2014 08:27:46

They actually look like a good little project, although I imagine getting one to run true could be quite a difficult proposition.

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