Falcor

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

Martin

Please respect what I am saying – this is a beginers project. – its any thing but.

As regards the burner tube it can not be drilled from both ends as the left hand end is a smaller size required for tapp

ing for the burner je 0.280 hence my question as to how far the 0.290 should be drilled what you seem to say is simple with a sharp new drill which all mine are is not practical

Pete

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

Martin

In part 3 you ask for a sharing of info regarding the use of the Ronson valve direct into the tank fig 22 top.

This is how I have done mine except I did not think the notch cut in the side of the bush for the vent would work because of it filling with silver solder.

So after I had soldered my bushes in I fitted the filler valve and from the inside using a No 60 drill I drilled on the join between the bush and valve thread about 2/3rds way till it broke into the groove in the valve.

Only time will tell but looking at it under magnification it looks ok.

Could you advise on the working pressures for the boiler and gas tank so I can get them pressure tested please.

Ive made the burner bar except for the slots using a long series drill from Tracy Tools loads of cutting fluid and taking a long time to do it as you advised.

Next job is to cut the slots luckily I have a sutiable size slitting blade and can turn my milling head through 90 deg

Fig 32 there are 2 10ba clear holes in the one end what are they for or will it become apparent later?

Regards

Pete

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

HI PETE … working pressure for the boiler is typically 40 P.S.I … so its pressure test would be twice this … i.e. 80 psi … the gas tank will actually have a typical working pressure of a lot less than 100 psi … it could even be down at 10 or 20 psi on a cold winters day … there are many variables for how and where people place the tank in relation to the boiler and hot surfaces of the burner … the tank temperature and pressure can go up and down like a yoyo !

A few years back I was the boiler tester for a local model boat club for many years … available advice was limited, but the boilers were tested to 80psi and gas tanks were tested to 210 or 250 psi … the test rig was made by me and calibrated with a large brand-new gauge … I just used to get people to remove the boiler and gas tank from the model so the testing panel could test each item individually … that was considered acceptable … however, the world has changed and the newest rules for gas tanks now need a pressure test of 350 psi or 377 psi … it seems to vary with who I have asked over the last few years … the nearest club to my house, willing to do the pressure test, is 45 miles each way …I have asked various members of that club how to achieve the testing on 2 or 3 occasions and it seems that they do not yet have a CALIBRATED AND CERTIFICATED gauge that reads up to 400 psi, nor do they possess a force pump that will handle 400 psi … I have received a lot of blank looks from many people when I have asked them if they plan to get anything organised !!

It might be wise to check with your local M. E. group that they are equipped to do the test ? I tried to work out a timetable and concluded that it would take me 2 days in their workshop to do the full strip-down, inspection, pressure gauge check, safety valve check, gas tank test ( and drain ALL THE WATER ), reassemble everything and then finally perform a steam test on their track.

I am afraid I chickened out and abandoned the idea … all my locos have tanks tested to 250 psi and they chug happily round my back garden,. but nowhere else !!

If your local society can sort out a simpler method for you then can you let me know please ? I would imagine they are a long way South of my "shed" … we are way North of Watford !

As regards your question about figure 32 shown in part 5 … figure 32 and 33 show the suspension bracket … just above them is photo 28 … this clearly shows the 2 small holes in the bracket … in part 6 on page 158, there is fig 43 … the 2 holes are shown at the base of the drawing for the square piece of metal … the words "10 BA clear" have disappeared from the drawing !! alongside the figure is photo 36 … this shows the 2 holes just under the copper pipe heading to the left.

The rear end of the smokebox support fits over the front end of the suspension bracket.

hope this is useful … martin

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

Martin

Can yo describe what to expect a successful burner bar to be like if its fed from the gas tank and in free air.

Ive made mine using a mill but did not anticipate the bar would foul the mill and make me change the way I was making it so may have problems No swarf clean tube cuts so over to you

Regards

Pete

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

Martin

Can yo describe what to expect a successful burner bar to be like if its fed from the gas tank and in free air.

Ive made mine using a mill but did not anticipate the bar would foul the mill and make me change the way I was making it so may have problems No swarf clean tube cuts so over to you

Regards

Pete

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

HI PETE … your first paragraph … do you mean what the burner actually looks like, or do you mean how the flame behaves ? there is usually quite a lot of difference between the two … in free air the flame will spread out a lot more than if it is in its fire tube … the ones I have made have usually been tested inside their tube … beware, it will get very hot, very quickly !

For the second paragraph … all the information is in part 2 of the magazine … photo 13, figure 19 and the text on page 499 … I do not possess a milling machine so I used a small hacksaw blade as per page 499 … the slots I made ended up as 0. 017 inch wide … can you tell me how wide is the slitting saw you used ? is it 1/64 inch or 0. 5 mm or even 0. 43 mm ? … you said the "bar would foul the mill" … does this mean the saw started wobbling ? … or does it mean the tube was awkward to clamp ?

let me know please … martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Sounds like Peter may have had the bar stood vertically and could not reach far enough with the slitting saw arbor which is not a problem with a good old junior hacksaw

[Rod AshtonParticipant @rodashton53132]

Is there any way that a lowly MEW subbie can get this series of Falcor articles? – (Sensible replies only please)

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

TO ROD ASHTON PLEASE … nice to hear from you … on the inside cover of MODEL ENGINEER magazine there is a phone number for back issues … 01795 662976 … there is also a website … http://www.mags-uk.com … I think it is also listed on this website as well.

The Falcor articles started in March 2018 with issue 4581 … there are 8 parts so far, I think part 9 is the final one, not yet published … the previous parts are all in the odd-numbered magazines up to issue 4595.

There have been a FEW !!! printing errors along the series … some of these have been covered in this thread … some you may be able to work out … anything remaining, then presumably you would be putting a question on this thread.

hope this is of some use … martin

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

HI PETE … just a P. S. to my earlier message today … there is some more information concerning poker-type burners … it is in MODEL ENGINEER magazine issue 4504, March 2015 on pages 425 up to 429.

might be a help … martin

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

Martin

As regards pressure testing I use a central heating pressure test set about £20 from Ebay Germany will go far beyond the 400 psi mark but sadly no calibrated gauge.

Presumably the lubricator goes in the 0.25 hole in the cab floor?

Fig 52 shows the bush for the exhaust inpurt at 0.45 and visually off centre – 0.45 as near as dam it puts it in the middle.

Fig 47 left hand end shows circular bush silver soldered to a 2 mm shaft at 0.075 thick which is less than 2 mm – is this right ? the 2 mm shaft will jam in the valve fork? Its not realy clear from Pic 39 if you have shaved a bit off the shafts

Ive only got the linkages to finish, the chimney attempt 2 and eccentrics to make but am leaving till last as its a pain changing the chuck – so roll on the last bit!

Regards

Pete

PS burner artical you said about – usefull but not going to make a test tank

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

Martin

Sorry its me again – no Im not trying to blow your brain!

The slot in the piston fork is shown as 0.093 the thickness of the piston coupling rod is shown as 0.095 so it wont fit – which dimension is right?

Regards

Pete

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It is usually best to make the female parts first as they are often governed by the size of the cutter, in this case a slot drill or slitting saw. then make the mating part to "fit" the part you have already made. That was if your chosen cutter should cut a bit over or under size you will end up with a pair of mating parts that are a nice close fit without excess slack.

Probably a bit of rounding up/down got in there somewhere as both would be a nominal 3/32"

Edited By JasonB on 24/09/2018 20:05:25

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Peter Russell 4 on 23/09/2018 21:25:31:

Martin

 

Fig 47 left hand end shows circular bush silver soldered to a 2 mm shaft at 0.075 thick which is less than 2 mm – is this right ? 

valve fork is shown with a 0.078" slot which will allow the 2mm shaft to fit as unless you are using precision ground mild steel it will be a bit less than 2mm dia. 

Edited By JasonB on 24/09/2018 20:28:56

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

HI PETE … starting with the lubricator, yes it fits in the 1/4 hole in the floor … for figure 52, yes it is offset to the right slightly just to clear everything … I found that position suited all the bits needing to fit round it … putting it to the left made an awkward bend in the pipe. if you have already made the exhaust pipe adaptor in fig 45 try it for size … the hole can be moved quite bit sideways to get everything squeezed in

For figure 47 … the rod should be clear of the fork inner side, apart from any slight misalignment or any small smears of silver solder … yes use a small needle file to make a nice sliding fit … JASON B has already answered this question beautifully above … a lot of the materials we buy are not EXACTLY to size … they are only nominal … for example, the difference between 5/32 and 4 mm is only a few thou. but if you try to fit things the opposite way then one is slack and one needs a sledge-hammer to get a fit … if ever you get something precision such as decent ball-bearings the size difference becomes very apparent.

Same again for the fit of the piston fork … the sizes are nominal … JASON B has hit the mark very nicely again … cut the slots first and then make the circular part to go inside it just a whisker bigger so it can be filed down, probably with a small needle file.

Another example of a nominal size would be for a certain size of bolt … what we buy as a commercial bolt may be the EXACT size it should be, but most times they are a bit smaller than nominal … sometimes they are a bit too big, if they are too large then it usually happens at a most awkward time … this needs the threads to be reduced slightly with a die closed down in diameter … that is when you discover you do not have that die size !!

You may have already discovered this problem with all the 6, 7 and 8 BA SIZES needed for this loco … most people spend lots of time using a plug tap right to the end of a drilled hole or frantically trying to find the right size of die to clean the threads.

martin

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

Martin

As a member of G1 model railway association – they have just re issue dthe new test procedures for boilers and gas tanks.

Gas tanks now have to be tested to 400 psi irrespective of them being used for pure butane or butane propane mix ( 40 % max)

As well as the serial number the tan has to have on the "label" information as to what type of LPG it is intended to contain.

What is it for Falcor

Regards

Pete

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

Martin

You mention the cladding on the boiler is mahogony strip wood – what size did you use

Also so I can make sure Ive got enough sheet for the cab what thickness is it?

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

HI PETE … being a member of the G1 railway group seems to be rather useful … have you been a member for a long time ? I presume their meeting place is not too far away from your house ? … hopefully less than the 45 miles I would have to travel for a pressure test ? … as regards the gas pressure test itself … it appears that the required pressures just keep going up as the years go by … I have happily tested this tank to 250 PSI, but not up to 400 PSI … many years ago I built a small tank to see what would happen at very high pressures … I think at about 900 PSI it was starting to become a football shape, but the soldering did not split.

If you use 400 PSI for the test pressure let me know how the tank performs, please.

I started experimenting more than 30 years ago … I have seen various graphs of pressure versus temperature … at first I wondered why the apparent pressure was so high and then realised that most manufacturers data available at that time included a safety factor of 1. 9 for the pressure … a lot of the graphs stopped at 25 bar and a temperature of 65 degrees . I did my own tests and discovered that at 100 degrees C the typical pressure was 245 PSI. This depends on the ratio of gas mix. I try to keep my tank pressures at about 40 PSI, this means a temperature of about 22 degrees C. If a tank was actually used at 100 degrees C. I would love to see how the flow is regulated … to go down from 245 PSI to about 10 PSI in one stage is remarkable … would the gas flow hit maximum as soon as the valve was cracked open ? would the safety valve be lifting most of the time ?

Over all this time I have never met anyone who has actually tested a gas tank at various temperatures … is there anyone in the G1 society who has ever done it ?

You ask about the ratio of gas mix … over the years there have been various makers of gas bottles , Taymar, Epigas, Coleman, Go-gas, Go system, any others ? once upon a time they used to put the ratio on the bottle e.g. 80/20 or 70/30 or 60/40 … but not any more … it is just a "mix" on the bottles from Go System, but they do refer to EN521 if you want to plough through it. I cannot answer that one directly.

As regards the tank labelling I stamp my tanks BEFORE the silver soldering ( Falcor part 3, page 647 and 648). I do not know if the G1 people use a stamp or an engraving tool on the copper tank, but I definitely think it is safer if using a stamp to do it first, just in case the resulting "thump" puts the solder under any extra stress. Let me know please if they use a stamp, an engraver, a sticky label or possibly even a painted label ?

For the boiler cladding I used a small circular saw to cut pieces about 1/4 thick and 5/15 wide … not totally critical … all that happens is that there will be a few more, or less, planks going round the circumference. The sides are tapered inwards to keep everything touching as it goes round the boiler.

I assume you mean the thickness of the plywood roof for the cab ? this was 2, or possibly 3, layers of 1/32 thin ply … it is much easier to bend several sheets of thin ply rather than 1 sheet of thick ply.

martin

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

Martin

The gas tank very slightly bows it s end plates at 400 psi – nothing to write home about though even though they are flanged 16g like the main body tube. Other wise sat there happy for over an hour.

I had not even considered the cab would be ply wood or have any plywood in it – I was just trying to make sure there were no stock deficiecys when the next bit comes out on 5th Oct!!!

The point I was trying to make was the picture 43 shows the input to the Oil trap off centre but the dimension of 0.45 in Fig 52 as near as dam it puts it in the middle ie 0.45 is not right.

Ive never been to a G1 meeting in 2-3 years! may be time I started looking at local clubs so have no knowledge as to how the mark boilers – im using engraved labels soldered on.

Being pedantic! theres no drawing for the water filler straight coupler for the 1/8 pipe from the fill valve to the boiler – I know you can buy one which is what im doing but its frustrating as it slows progress.

New rules say gas tanks to be tested at 20 deg C and limit max temperature in use so may not use heat shunt.

Regards

Pete

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

With ref to fig 33 where does the oil trap fit in relation to the hex and square spacers its clearly not attache dto frames and is held in place by 2 silicone tubes and oil trap out let to chimney

Pete

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

HI PETE … thanks for the information on gas tank testing … if we must use ever higher pressures for testing then it is very easy to switch to "plan B" and simply put a central stay through the length of any future tanks.

The main cab is 1. 2 mm brass sheet … I used ply for the roof to make it lighter and it was also easier to bend … if you can bend the brass neatly to the correct curve then by all means use that … this is all coming up in part 9 arriving very soon.

For the oil trap we have already mentioned this earlier… yes there is a drawing error ! … 0. 25 would be better … either move the hole or re-bend the 1/8 pipe … keep annealing it so it bends easier.

The bit about NOT USING A HEAT SHUNT surprises me … my main problem is always to keep the tank from going COLD …I position tanks away from the boilers and use the shunt to supply a limited amount of heat into the tank .. this can only happen if the burner is lit … it makes a very stable running system … to remove any heat shunt might create a daft situation on start-up … the boiler will be cold, the tank and everything else will GO COLDER … so initial fire-up on a cold day could be very frustrating and take a LOT longer ??? Using boiling water for the boiler is not always practical.

HAVE I MIS-UNDERSTOOD WHAT THE RULES MEAN ?? please let me know … if what you have been told and passed onto me is correct then any steam-up on a cold day could be a real pain.

Do you think you could get any information from the G1 group please ?? if they gave you this information then surely some of them could already be struggling ??

Maybe Roundhouse have found a magic way round this potential problem ??

For the clamping of the actual oil trap … yes, it is held very nicely by the bits and pieces round it … mine has survived a lot of running over several seasons.

martin

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

HI PETE … just a thought about gas tanks … in your message above dated 30th. Sept … if someone wants to ban heat shunts, then what constitutes a heat shunt ?? surely the back end of the boiler gets hot and passes heat to the cab and also to the cab floor ?? if the cab floor passes heat into the gas tank, then is the floor considered as a heat shunt ?? this whole idea about heat shunts surprises me.

martin

[Peter Russell 4Participant @peterrussell4]

MArtin may be its my interpretation as the test is at 20 deg.

Ive sent you a message using message member so I can send you my copy of G1 test spec – did you get it?

as its member only I dont want to put it on general blog.

Ive re built my tank and its held 400 psi quite happily and is now sitting in a jug of water full of gas at 20 deg C and at pressure of 35 psi see test spec. addmitedley it is pure Butane according to the bottle im using by default does not mention any propane in the ingredients.

Stupid question may be – how do you light the burner? its not accesible through the cab so im assuming its through the smoke box door and up the fire tube?

Pete

[martin ranson 2Participant @martinranson2]

HI PETE … I am not sure about how to find private e-mails either … I am not the worlds best at driving computers … I much prefer to be in the "shed" cutting metal … nothing has arrived to print out … so do not worry about the test spec … not yet anyway … if it becomes the preferred method we will hear about it soon enough … thank you for the offer though.

For the method of lighting the gas … open the gas valve SLIGHTLY … count up to 2 or 3 and apply a light at the chimney top … there should be no need to open the smokebox door … if people open the gas valve too much then everything fills up with gas and there is usually a very loud pop … this is one of the reasons I always fit a pressure gauge on the gas supply to the jet … it gives a clear indication of how much pressure is arriving at the jet for start – up … once lit I usually keep the pressure down a bit because the tank is full to the eyebrows and occasionally it can spit liquid gas into the jet … after a few minutes the flame can be set to your desired level …usually this is a fairly high flame to warm everything up ASAP … then turn it down again as needed for actual running … keep an eye on the boiler pressure gauge … I try to stop the safety valve from lifting because it wastes a lot of water.

martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

martin, look at she green bar along the top of the page, the envelope next to "inbox" should be flashing. Just click that to see any messages.

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