English Gage?

[Ed Phelps 1Participant @edphelps1]

I am hoping someone on the other side of the pond could help me. I purchased a vintage Brown and Sharpe micrometer #225 with the words "English Gage" and some numbers on the frame. They start with 1.300, 2.284, 3.259, and go up to 30.012. The fixed anvil is slightly curved. What's it for, sheet metal, tubing?? Can't find anything useful on the net. Thanks, Ed

[Ed Phelps 1Participant @edphelps1]

[egaParticipant @ega]

Extract from B&S catalogue:

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Curved fixed anvil suggest this is for measuring sheet metal thickness.

English gauge numbers on the frame format is (gauge number) . (thickness in thousandths of an inch)

Need to do some research as to which gauge tho'. There are several possible candidates with small variations. My guess would be Birmingham gauge.

Over-simplifying gauge numbers derive from weight of material. As far as sheet is concerned its weight of a standard area, more usually taken from number of standard size sheets needed to make up a standard weight the reduced down to a one or two digit number. Variations mostly due to what the weight per unit area of the standard material of that type is. Obviously Aluminium weighs lighter than iron or steel so the calculation is different.

These days we can easily measure thickness. Back when gauge systems were derived this wasn't the case. Comparing to a standard weight is relatively easy and measuring a reasonably large sheet size can be done adequately accurately using rules, tapes and other simple methods.

Really very little difference to when nails, screws et al were sold by weight.

Like most of the older practical systems its actually easier for the job its intended for when you understand whats going on.

Clive.

ega found the advert well I was typing.  Nicely done.

Edited By Clive Foster on 19/10/2018 13:09:49

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The Gauge to Decimal numbers correspond to "Birmingham Gauge" which was also called "Stub's Iron Wire Gauge". The US reference to 'English Gage' is nothing to do with our 'English Music Gauge'.

These were originally used to designate soft wire sizes and are not the same as "Stub's Steel Wire Gauge" or "Birmingham Wire Gauge". Later the same gauge sizes were also used for sheet metal.

My 1949 Newnes Engineers Reference Book spends a page explaining the various wire gauge standards then in use. They are a complete muddle. For example silver steel was supplied in 13" lengths in diameters according to Lancashire Pinion Gauge. Why 13" you may ask? Because that's a French Foot of course…

Newnes aren't impressed with navigating 22 different wire gauge standards and instead recommend "A better system is to order rods according to decimals of an inch or millimetres".

Dave

[egaParticipant @ega]

Clive Foster:

Thanks for the interesting and useful background information.

I agree with SOD about the muddle. A random quote from the same B&S catalogue:

"The difference between the Stubs' Iron Wire Gage and the Stubs' Steel Wire Gage should be constantly borne in mind, the first being commonly known as the English Standard Wire, or Birmingham Gage, and which designates the Stubs' soft wire sizes, and the second being used in measuring drawn steel wire or drill rod of Stubs' make."

A makeshift tube-measuring mic can readily be contrived by furnishing the standard item with a precision ball and short length of tube to retain it to the anvil.

Edited By ega on 19/10/2018 14:41:48

[Ed Phelps 1Participant @edphelps1]

Well, thanks for the help, especially the B&S catalog, although I'm not sure I understand it all! I do clock repair and this is just the tool for measuring spring thickness with that curved anvil. Ed

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

It's not 1.300

It's 1 .300

That is 1 SWG is 0.300" thick.

And so on…

<edited for apostrophe catastrophe>

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 19/10/2018 17:02:39

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/10/2018 17:02:11:

It's not 1.300

It's 1 .300

That is 1 SWG is 0.300" thick.

And so on…

Pedant Alert!

Nice to see our esteemed editor and moderator-in-chief demonstrate wire gauge confusion in action.

SWG is Standard Wire Gauge where: 1=0.300", 2=0.276, 3=0.252, 4=0.232, 5=0.212, 6=0.192 etc

The numbers on the micrometer are:

1 = 0.300", 2=0.284, 3=0.259, 4=0.238, 5=0.220, 6=0.203

The gauge numbers and dimensions correspond to SWIG and Birmingham Gauge, not SWG. (More trivia – this Birmingham Gauge is not the same as the Birmingham Gauge used to measure sheet and hoops…)

I feel better now that's been cleared up! Civilisation has been saved again.

Dave

PS I don't normally approve of american spelling, but surely they have a point using gage instead of gauge, or as I like to spell it 'guage'.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

More pedantry, Gauge numbers don't derive from the weight of sheets – they get bigger as the size get thinner!

The clue is in 'wire gauge' they relate to the number of dies the wire has been pulled through.

As different companies had different but similar sets of dies…

Neil

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Neil

The original derivation is from number of sheets per specified weight not weight of each sheet so larger numbers would correspond to thinner sheets.

This history is completely obfuscated by subsequent revisions and adjustments to bring things into some sort of commonality between different places and firms.

The commonly cited number of dies the wire has been pulled through is complete red herring when it comes to original derivation of gauge. Once the basic system had been established it may well be a practical statement of what happened but I suspect its really a nice sounding factoid promulgated to explain things by folk who don't understand the details. Might just as well define sheet thickness gauge by number of times the sheet has been through the rollers.

Back in those days length or area and weight were about the only adequately reliable, easily transportable, comparison factors.

In the modern technological & internet age where pretty much everyone who so desires can afford a micrometer, web access and silly accurate digital scales we lack the feel for just how difficult it used to be. Not just physical measurement, no micrometer to measure the wire or drill that made the hole in the die remember, but also finding out what was going on either a couple of counties over or in a different industry.

Clive

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/10/2018 17:02:11:

It's not 1.300

It's 1 .300

That is 1 SWG is 0.300" thick.

And so on…

thanks for the clarification. I'm probably not the only person whose time was wasted by the sloppy presentation of the question.

With regard to sheet and methods of measurement. As a lad when money was worth more I was taken aback in a builders merchant being told the lead sheet was £4 per squ foot……

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

It looks like there is a gauge for every day of the week, every week of the month and a few more. No wonder there is confusion.
**LINK**

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/10/2018 17:34:31:

…

PS I don't normally approve of american spelling, but surely they have a point using gage instead of gauge, or as I like to spell it 'guage'.

I never understand the American desire to purge the language of French words. Personally I think an object deposited as a bond, a kind of plum, and a position relative to the wind are plenty of meanings to attach to "gage".

Brian

[MeunierParticipant @meunier]

And to add to the multitude of gauges, I buy Kanthal-A1 resistance wire (FeCrAl) sold in awg sizes at specific ohms/foot, being AmericanWireGauge also known as Brown&Sharpe gauge.
DaveD

[Author]

Posts