Electric vehicles

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

Ever since earl engineers tried steam carriages on the road,the powers that be in this country have been against the population being mobile,the rich had their horses but wanted to keep the rest of us static so that they were in command,now they are at it again forcing us to run around in milk floats,after these comments the serious side of it is how will cars be convenienly charged,take the thousands of coronation street style houses, every house would need a point on the edge of the road,cannot lay cables across the pavement from house to car,how long will it be before thieves find it profitable to nick the charging cables or thieve cars just to get the batteries. regarding efficiency cars have been around for around 130 years and its taken all that time to arrive at cars which have good fuel consumption and reliability,how long will it really be before the electric car can deliver a similar overall performance and cost.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Peter G. Shaw

I'm not actively recommending Tesla's – more using them to illustrate what can be done. As to turbo's.. well my 27yr old 200SX has never blown a turbo (touch wood) although I did blow the big ends for an expensive rebuild.

Tesla have good points but their customer service is often woefully poor and without a dealership network it's 90 miles to my nearest service centre (they are building some new ones) and any repair costs out of warranty will be breathtakingly expensive/ The biggest plus is their supercharger network which beats the others into a proverbial cocked hat plus range and acceleration. Biggest minus is often build quality and leaving owners to report problems without new vehicles being PDI'd. I was lucky.

HOWARDT

The downside to an industry standard battery and motor system is the halting of innovation. Again using Tesla as the example they have made dramatic strides in improving performance from their packs and cooling systems although recent reports suggest that Lucid Motors have made some incredible advances in motor cooling by figuring out dead spots in the magnetic fields where they can route coolants? Again not a cheap car but 1000BHP with 500+ mile range shows what can be done. And what can be done will trickle down to economy cars in time.

pgk

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

I think we have to reluctantly accept that progress will mean changes in our modes of transport, I think the new 2030 deadline is too soon and not practical for numerous reasons, least of all that our ageing electricity infrastructure, I.e. the cables under our streets will be severely challenged with trying to charge everyone’s personal chariot unless major upgrades take place. My preference would be a hydrogen hybrid which would mean less problems with range and home charging would not be necessary if no home charging point was available. Our energy infrastructure is going to be severely challenged with the latest edict from on high that states that there is a target of 100,000 gas boilers to be ripped out each year from existing installations and replaced with air source heat pumps, yet more electrical loads, heat pumps can devour significant amounts of electricity. I will be interested to see how gas boilers will be replaced in blocks of flats with heat pumps, not a lot of room for them; it was also mooted that homes with air source heat pumps would need to have super efficient insulation in order to function with acceptable temperatures generated inside. I accept that change will happen but I am not sure those in the political arena have fully understood the implications of the changes they wish for, this will all be taking place with the economy having to recover from the COVID Pandemic, not yet over, and already estimated to be an astronomic cost to be spread over many years in the future, the costs of the proposed innovations will therefor have to be met by huge increases in personal taxes, there is only a finite amount of money in the system. Are we all up for paying the price?
Dave W

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by not done it yet on 19/11/2020 11:40:10:

NF,

silly thread?

READ THOSE TWO WORDS AGAIN, PLEASE.

It does actually say thread, not post. Obviously too subtle for you to grasp?

I was actually referring back to the ostentatious joker that started this thread – a confirmed petrol-head with a distinct anti-BEV agenda.

What the hell is wrong with you.

I am not anti BEV. I live with her.

Steve.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Well I am thinking to myself to what I would be doing if I was a silly teenager with his mates coming out of the pub/nightclub late at night when every sensible person is asleep in 2031………"look at all them electric cars being charged…lets unplug em all for a laugh"………..

Que, chaos in the morning as all the cars down that street have no charge due to them being deplugged!

What fun !

Regards to all

Derek

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by derek hall 1 on 19/11/2020 16:11:47:

Well I am thinking to myself to what I would be doing if I was a silly teenager with his mates coming out of the pub/nightclub late at night when every sensible person is asleep in 2031………"look at all them electric cars being charged…lets unplug em all for a laugh"………..

Que, chaos in the morning as all the cars down that street have no charge due to them being deplugged!

What fun !

Regards to all

Derek

That was one thing i thought would become anti social in a few years time. It will happen for sure. Along with a few claims of tripping up. I know there is a looksee into induction charging ,with a mat buried in the tarmac.

Does anyone know how many countries are doing a change over to electric. Like the big countries. America. India. Arab states etc. ????. Hope it's just not us.

Steve.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by derek hall 1 on 19/11/2020 16:11:47:

Well I am thinking to myself to what I would be doing if I was a silly teenager with his mates coming out of the pub/nightclub late at night when every sensible person is asleep in 2031………"look at all them electric cars being charged…lets unplug em all for a laugh"………..

Que, chaos in the morning as all the cars down that street have no charge due to them being deplugged!

What fun !

Regards to all

Derek

Funnily enough, on another site today someone pointed out that when you lock the car the charge leads also lock (at both ends) to prevent theft.

N.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Samsaranda on 19/11/2020 15:41:18:

… I accept that change will happen but I am not sure those in the political arena have fully understood the implications of the changes they wish for, …
Dave W

The politicians absolutely don't want any of this. Much easier for leaders to kick the can down the road rather than tackle a difficult problem head on.

What's happening isn't a matter of choice or opinion. No one is in control, it's not an agenda, or a conspiracy. Events are in charge and the future will be different whatever individuals believe, want or need. Rather than clinging to the past we should be seizing opportunities and making the best of it. Standing in front of an express train and shouting 'STOP' won't work. Change tack. Even if it means landing in head first in a cow-pat with a broken ankle!

Dave

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Martin mentioned a thing called a "bus" What,s that ? what does it look like, what does it do ?

Has anyone ever seen one ? Please tell !

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by KWIL on 19/11/2020 11:56:15:

Kiwi Bloke asked the question about the Emergency Services.

200 -> 800V DC has a strong bite

What about:

Sorry sir I cannot get you out of your wrecked car until that 70 litres of highly flammable liquid has dispersed?.

Fire services are already getting specialist training in dealing with EV fires.

N.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/11/2020 16:48:02:

Posted by derek hall 1 on 19/11/2020 16:11:47:

Well I am thinking to myself to what I would be doing if I was a silly teenager with his mates coming out of the pub/nightclub late at night when every sensible person is asleep in 2031………"look at all them electric cars being charged…lets unplug em all for a laugh"………..

Que, chaos in the morning as all the cars down that street have no charge due to them being deplugged!

What fun !

Regards to all

Derek

Funnily enough, on another site today someone pointed out that when you lock the car the charge leads also lock (at both ends) to prevent theft.

N.

Not universally true. While some cars may have this feature, not all do. Mine does not. Thete is space for a small padlock on the latch release but the latch is plastic and would not resist a determined attempt to remove the plug.

Robert G8RPI.

[David Davies 8Participant @daviddavies8]

Derek Hall 1 said

"Well I am thinking to myself to what I would be doing if I was a silly teenager with his mates coming out of the pub/nightclub late at night when every sensible person is asleep in 2031………"look at all them electric cars being charged…lets unplug em all for a laugh"……….."

Didn't anyone hear that alcohol is to be phased out by 2029 for health reasons? Once this is implemented there will no longer be any drink induced tomfoolery.

Dave

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/11/2020 16:50:36:

Posted by KWIL on 19/11/2020 11:56:15:

Kiwi Bloke asked the question about the Emergency Services.

200 -> 800V DC has a strong bite

What about:

Sorry sir I cannot get you out of your wrecked car until that 70 litres of highly flammable liquid has dispersed?.

Fire services are already getting specialist training in dealing with EV fires.

Nissan trained their warranty agents how to recover a faulty or accident damaged Leaf within a year of launching the car. That included how to ensure that the batteries were disconnected and safe.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

There is a guy in the states who buys right off cars & rebuilds them on youtube. He was at a wreckers called i think IAAI.com. A bit like Copart.

He owns a Tesla of which he repaired. There were 2 in the yard completely burned out. What i did not know that the whole car Base is the battery. Around 3" deep & the full footprint of the car. That's a lot of torch batteries.

Also another guy built an electric mobile home. He demonstrated 2 batteries. The 1st & i have no idea what type. He hammered a nail in the battery & it went off like a roman candle. This was only 3" long & about 1" dia. He then did the same with the latest type & it did nothing. Not even a flash.

What prompted me to start this thread was partly because as Not done it yet says , i am a petrol head but also because i was amazed that on the BBC news last night a caster was questioning a woman from the electric car bit of the government. She could not answer any questions with certainty. One thing he asked was a 3 car family who all do quite a few miles a day. How will they charge them. Her answer was, the standard charger is 7kw. So they could just use one for each car. 21kw. One household. ????

I live near a LIDL they have a charging bay. The point has 3 different plugs. Which i guess means the different companies have not agreed a standard for the charging points.

I know it somehow will happen , it was just how. At present it is impossible. Unless the next ten years sees huge amounts of power available & materials for all this can be sought. Good luck to them. Not sure i will be around anyway by then.

Steve.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Worth reading the headline news on the Daily Express now , ref France electricity problems.

NOT the silly panic headlines but the intent by EDF to scrap the 4 AGRs at Hinkley+Hunterston starting from next year ,towards the end of the report.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by J Hancock on 19/11/2020 18:01:21:

Worth reading the headline news on the Daily Express now , ref France electricity problems.

NOT the silly panic headlines but the intent by EDF to scrap the 4 AGRs at Hinkley+Hunterston starting from next year ,towards the end of the report.

I do wish people would stop using abbreviations that a lot of us need to Google, it's not clever AGR = Advanced gas-cooled reactor

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Worrying that our nuclear future lies partly in the hands of a French Electricity company which is partly state owned and teetering on the verge of bankruptcy.
Dave W

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Samsaranda on 19/11/2020 18:13:15:

Worrying that our nuclear future lies partly in the hands of a French Electricity company which is partly state owned and teetering on the verge of bankruptcy.
Dave W

i Wonder if you will get a string of Onions with the quarterly bill.

What happened to the Chinese plants that were going to be built here, have they been shelved.

Steve.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Steviegtr on 19/11/2020 19:23:04:

What happened to the Chinese plants that were going to be built here, have they been shelved.

Steve.

I think Bradwell is the only one the Chinese were actually building, though they have a 33% share in Hinkley Point C, if I remember rightly. The recent National Security and Investment Bill may well deter meaningful future investment.

[S.D.L.Participant @s-d-l]

Its going to happen, see the news the other day that BMW are moving all combustion engine manufacturer out of Germany and retooling for doing the electric power packs in Germany. The report suggested so the German workers were protected for the long term.

Steve

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

I think you will find 'the government' have recently signed off on a deal to get EDF to build Sizewell 'C'.

Lovely to hear the spokeswoman say, " it will be cheaper because it will be identical to Hinkley and they will know where all the mistakes in design are ".

And certain elements are provided by …………….the Chinese.

I wrote to 'the government' reminding them of where Dunwich is……….underwater.

Reassured to know they are already raising the natural ground level to compensate for rising sea levels.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Well yes, I am sure that sometime in the future we will all be running around in electric cars, but I feel at the moment that transition has just not been thought through.

We will be basically be removing millions of small ICE power units from running around the roads and replacing them with cars powered by power generated from static power generators, that is, power stations. Trouble with this is that power generation capacity is near full at some peak power times already, like in very cold mid-winter conditions here in the UK as it is – where is the spare capacity coming from to re-charge all these battery powered cars at those times?

We have shut or are shutting all the coal fired power stations, some ahead of the end of their natural life, gas and oil powered power stations are also frowned upon, and I've read recently that a fair proportion of our nuclear power stations will also be closed within a very few years. Whilst renewable power sources do well, the sun doesn't shine at night and the wind doesn't always blow as required, sometimes not at all and sometimes too much, so you need a back-up to the renewables. I don't read anything about a whole new wave of 'clean' power stations being built, so it seems obvious to me that in the future the way things are going we stand an excellent chance of power shortages..

Then there is distribution. All these charging points planned to swamp the country over the next few years are going to need new distribution cable networks installing – again I see no evidence of that planned. Current distribution networks will not cope with the increased power load, for sure.

Charging at home for many is a non-starter, even if the current power distribution in the street and homes could supply it, which many probably cannot. Thinking of terraced houses, new "affordable homes", village houses in the sticks built with no drives, blocks of flats – where are those cars going to be charged?

Electric cars will also produce the same amount of brake and rubber tyre dust pollution as any other car, so emissions will not drop to zero as some think, and as have been suggested already, in their total life cycle will electric cars produce any less climate change pollution than ICE cars?

Cost. Even if electric cars reduce in relative cost to current ICE cars levels, will the all population be able, and willing, to afford to buy new electric cars – I know by then I probably would not, and even if I could at my age would I want to commit to that sort of currently unplanned capital outlay?

Batteries. Where are all the materials coming from to make all these batteries? We could very soon be in the same position as now with oil, where we are running out of reserves and what reserves we have is 'owned' by a small number of possibly hostile countries able to hold the rest to ransom.

We seem to be only thinking UK here, but the same will apply world wide, it will be a global problem.

I do not know what the future will bring. We face an uncertain and probable hostile future. The rocketing world population requires fuel (or energy), food and water and the possibility of future wars as countries seek to ensure that their citizens have enough of all three are high; transition to electric vehicles is part of that equation.

But it needs to be thought through properly before implementation; currently it seems to be little more than just a statement on someones wish list being pushed forward.

And no-one seems to be talking about trucks, farm vehicles, heavy earth moving vehicles and the like.

Chris

Lots of edits to correct spelling mistakes!  Have always claimed any engineer worth his salt can't spell, but try not to prove it!!

Edited By ChrisH on 20/11/2020 10:11:32

Edited By ChrisH on 20/11/2020 10:12:08

Edited By ChrisH on 20/11/2020 10:14:35

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

To fuel the discussion: **LINK**

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-19/china-defies-elon-musk-s-warnings-and-pushes-ahead-with-hydrogen

MichaelG.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Is it the intention to eventually get away from all IC engines? or just cars?….

Like ChrisH mentions its not just cars to be considered is it?, where is the "line" drawn?…what about all the static standby generators for hospitals, sewage and water pumping stations?

Another question about the green credentials of going all electric…how much copper will be needed to be mined and special coatings manufactured for all the extra cables that will have to be run – plus all the digging up of the roads by those nasty polluting diggers….

I am not against change but I think the true cost of going the totally electric vehicle route is not as green as it appears.

I would have thought phasing in of hybrids first then gradually introducing all electric would have been sensible or is that just "kicking the can down the road" and perhaps we should "bite the bullet"……??

Regards

Derek

PS Could we end up having a "war" between different and incompatible electrical connections for different cars? much like betamax and VHS? – just a thought…..

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

It’s going to be interesting how the government will collect the revenue lost on petrol and diesel, will it be a simple tax on electricity for recharging or a road pricing scheme or something else? One of the carrots to go electric at the moment is the cars are not cheap but you dodge the tax on fuel. The loss of revenue to the government is going to reach a point where they switch the taxation somewhere else, the free ride will end for the early adopters at some point. My cars spend most of their life parked on my drive so a decent solar array could be useful especially in the summer with strong sun and long daylight hours. It will be interesting to see if people’s travel habits return to pre virus levels or whether the great working from home experiment encourages a large part of the workforce to give up the long commute. If you are working from home and you tell the revenue you have a home office you may be liable to capital gains payment when you sell the house, the room needs to be a dual or multi purpose facility.

Mike

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