Electric vehicles

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/11/2020 21:29:35:

From another forum I know quite a few people who are already very happy with their electric cars.

I think the biggest misconception above is that change is slow, 300 mile cars are a fact of life already.

Grid capacity is a non-issue. Cars charge mostly at night and actually bring a benefit because they use off-peak capacity.

I see three challenges:

1 – Infrastructure yes we will have to solve the charging conundrum, but this is basically about making charge points available where cars are parked, not about getting electricity from floor 24 to street level…

2 – Taxes the loss of revenue on fossil fuels is going to create tensions

3 – inequalities, if you can only afford an old banger how do you cope when fossil fuel prices are rocketing AND you have to pay road charges. There is s serious risk that the changeover period could effectively make driving unaffordable for people who presently get by with a tired diesel.

I certainly don't see performance or range being a problem long term. I also see other battery technologies coming on stream and maybe quick-swap standard packs so you can do a changeover at a service station as quickly as you could fill with petrol.

But don't get too excited, someone pointed out that under the new regime it's 20-25 years before someone with my buying habits will end up with an electric car…

Neil,

Few points;

"Grid Capacity" To an extent I agree generating capacity may be there or getting there but your comment most cars charge at night is well and good as long as charging points are there at the night time parking space (home). Given there is still a very significant proportion of old housing stock – terrace properties with no off street parking residents only option is an on street charging point. Even older properties with off street facilities are likely to be served by grid connections (local cables) that were laid many years ago when the anticipated load per property was nowhere near today's consumption. So to my mind apart from generating capacity its distribution capacity that will become important to support the night time load – smart meters are supposed to encourage energy use in current off peak periods? If all the cars in my road were on charge every night the load "per house" is likely to be larger than during the day! Charge at the work place I hear. How many work places have dedicated parking? Many car parks have a token few chargers, look at the cost / logistics of equipping every bay to accommodate all. Someone said employers get off their butts and install – hospitals? Most NHS staff have to pay to park, NHS funds would be better spent on medical care?

Performance and range for cars is getting better and will continue to get better and trucks will improve a bit but there is a big difference in the power required to move an artic than a car so transport of goods will be affected.

The biggest change will have to be lifestyle adjustments and they will be driven both by range, performance and capital cost. There is a huge amount of money poised for investment in green projects with potential large rewards at the top for those funding. The pain will be at the bottom where car ownership will be pushed out of reach of many. There is no such thing as a cheap high tech battery and batteries are not as green as they appear to be. Hydrogen however has prospects but depending on the colour at the cost of large scale carbon storage, the proposal to stick it in the ground for ever may just be storing up another problem down the line?

Paul.

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/11/2020 21:29:35:

 

‘Grid capacity is a non-issue. Cars charge mostly at night and actually bring a benefit because they use off-peak capacity. ‘

 

Neil,

Standard single phase home charging points are advertised as 7kW but the electricity distribution network in the UK has long been designed with an ADMD (after diversity maximum demand) of only 1.5 kW. This figure is used to determine the size of cables, transformers etc needed. The network may be able to cope at the moment with relatively small numbers of electric cars but not if everyone has one. There have been a lot of research projects to work out ways to get round this (so called Smart Grids) but I think it will still be a problem.

The other problem is generation capacity. The existing nuclear power station have not been replaced and will be at the end of their life soon and gas power stations still cause emissions. Solar may help with car charging during the day, but obviously most people will want to charge their car in the evening.

10 years doesn’t seem long to remedy these issues.

 

Stuart

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Stuart Smith 5 on 18/11/2020 23:56:06

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

An interesting development: **LINK**

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-bmw-engines-idUKKBN27Y2I6

MichaelG.

[Henry ArtistParticipant @henryartist43508]

I thought it was only the sale of new petrol and diesel cars that would be banned in 2030…

No mention of banning sales of other forms of infernal combustion engine transport (yet).

I expect a thriving second-hand market will exist for some time after 2030. Perhaps we should look to Cuba for inspiration on how to keep old vehicles running with severely limited resources.

Depressingly, there is a long and sad history of our Glorious Leaders enacting policies in the vague hope that reality will eventually conform to their aspirations at some unspecified point in the future e.g. diesel car emissions, public transport in general, the national railway system, etc.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

From a North American perspective,there are major problems with widespread implementation of electric cars here. Current designs of electric cars do great for a 40-60 km commute in temperate areas like California. Long trips of up to about 500 km at 80 km/h are possible on one charge with some vehicles in temperate areas. But here are some regionally dependent issues that make all electric vehicles less viable:

1. range in below zero celsius temperatures are half or less of normal range. These temps happen in winter in many regions of N.A., including densely populated areas.

2. For trips over 500 km , several hours are needed for charging between 500 km sections of the distance in warm weather, in cold weather charging is needed much more often for several hours at a time. Distances in North America are vast – 4500 km New York to Los Angeles in USA, 5800 km Halifax to Vancouver in Canada. Long trips like these with electric vehicles will take a very long time, allowing for daily charging stops of some hours, which people used to gasoline or diesel powered vehicles will not be patient about.

3. Electricity supply and cost varies widely by region. Areas with huge hydroelectric capacity like Quebec Canada or some areas in the Western states of the USA have surplus capacity and low cost electricity. Areas that use primarily nuclear power or wind or gas turbine electricity generation have enormous power costs and the supply is very close to maxed out in peak demand circumstances. In recent years widespread brownouts / blackouts have happened at peak times in densely populated areas (like in New York state in USA or in Ontario Canada in summer when millions of people have AC on in +30 degree celsius heat for a few weeks)

Situation worldwide for electric cars may be FAR different than Europe and the UK. Electric cars make some sense in some areas of N.A. but certainly not all areas, and not for long trips of several thousand km.

A Nissan Leaf or Chev Volt where I live, for the few days we get -30 deg C temp, 90 km/h winds with 200 mm of snow on the ground and 1 metre snow drifts, is a non starter – literally – and would probably cost about $2000 a year in electricity to keep it charged.

 

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 19/11/2020 02:10:51

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Jeff,

While winter usage uses more energy, the rest of your post is mostly unreliable – even for the current state of development, let alone several years in the future.

500km range is becoming common – with some models designed for ‘town use’ and some for longer distances.

Charging rates are already more than adequate for most journeys. Some, now being got ready for roll-out can charge at nearly half a MegaWatt. Would that not be fast enough for you? That might be equivalent to 1500 – 2500km/h.

Capital investment for nuclear power is high, but the power supplied is dirt cheap during off-peak periods – as the reactors cannot be easily turned down.

People may have to learn to be less impatient. Not a bad trait, really?

Perhaps look at the situation in Australia – where the networks are worried that home generation may be reducing their supply to the pointvwhere power stations may need to turnnoff.🙂

As you state, different areas will require different solutions. Please note this thread is referring to the UK – less area than Ontario alone?

You are dead right about the Nissan Leaf – no active battery temperature control. But it is now ‘old hat’ technology, out-dated and long past its sell-by date. Technology has advanced greatly in the last few years at a rate which you clearly have not quite grasped. Leafs and Volts were pioneers and have been superceded by more useful designs and developments.

You would be better using up-to-date examples, not early models for any arguments – which would mean your current post would be totally out-dated – which it is, in the context of this silly thread, started by some petrol-head trying to be sensational instead of thinking seriously of the problems being caused bythe human race overload on the Earth’s resources.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

There are misconceptions and falsehoods in the messages above. Battery tech is improving albeit with some limitations as to how far that can go. Tesla had a 'battery day' a few weeks ago when they announced some new tech changes leading to an efficiency improvement to halve the cost of making the batteries, remove cobalt entirely and a new 'tabless' architecture that improves capacity and improvements in longevity of the things towards the 'million mile' battery in duration. Range has already increased from the time 2018 model S I own by some 10%+ and newer models will be comming out with claims towards 500mile ranges.
Range claims are as meaningless as petrol usage claims compared to 'real world' and yes there is a winter time hit with cold weather.

The newer model 3 (smaller but bigger than average petrol cars) has th same range a smy S with a 75KWh pack compared to my 100KWh pack.

Real world on mine is that summer cruising at 70mph on motorways, on the flat in average weather and I get a genuine 300-320 wh/mile. At the other extreme in winter on short journeys with a hit to passenger heating and battery warming plus hills and twisty roads and a heavy foot I can drop than to 500wh/m but a longer journey in winter when everything is warmed up that range improved again towards 450 wh/m.

I made a number of trips last year to see the seals at Angel cove in the winter months. Round trip distance with comfort breaks each way and a bit of a look-around Llandudno beach front an the battery cooling right down while we seal watched was around 170 miles with some 70 miles range remaining. So my 300mile range theory dropped to a winter 240. A lighter foot would have made little difference to journey times but saved 10 miles range.

It takes very little extra planning to use 'shore power' at home to preheat the car or judge the final battery top-up from 90-100% before setting out to have max range with least battery degredation eect from full top-up. The latest incarnation of my S with same size battery has a range some 60 mies greater already than mine.

Wales is a charger desert but for most of the UK fast chargers have/are being rolled out. Again Tesla is ahead of the game – hopeully others will catch up. There are already UK sites with as many as 24 stalls although most sites have fewer but can be added to. The latest V3 chargers are 250KW capable such that a model 3 capable of accepting those charge rates can got from 10-60% capacity (its most efficient near the empty end) in less than 20 mins for a good 150+ miles top-up.

Tesla was founded in 2008 – that's only 12 years ago. The others already have some battery experience and certainly more car-making experience and truly should be able to match/exceed how far Tesla have gone within another 9 years – If they want to.

That still leaves a lot of disparity. A Tesla isn't a cheap car and most owners do have suitable home charging options but there are ways of sorting out those disparities with onstreet charging etc – it just takes the will to do it. And most folk don't need long ranges for their urban commutes and local shopping trips.

Norway has embraced EV motoring in a big way and their winter weather is pretty foul too.

If hydrogen production from non-fossil sources gets off the ground and generation is from 'spare' green capacity (night wind power etc) then it's inefficiencies become less important. And like everything it;s efficiencies will improve. It obviously has the benefit fo faster refuelling and avoids carting battery weight.

Fundamental truisms are that fossil fuel needs to stop being used and people need to stop making so many (whim) car journeys and and to stop the hedonism of buying stuff for the sake of it and demanding access to cheap jet travel. Western society is horrid in it's wastefullness.

Real world example. I have free supercharging with my car (no longer available but affects my planning). I had to help out my daughter south of London when she was having some urgent issues. I left Mid Wales with a low charge. Stopped at Telford for 30 mins. Stopped again at Heathrow Hilton for a 90% charge 45mins 'cos there's nowhere to charge where she lives. i stayed with her for 3 days and on the trip back did a splash and dash at Warwick to avoid any range anxiety. I could have made it home from there easy but elected to top up again at Telford for the free sparks and arrived home with more charge than when i left. Yes it added about 70 mins journey time each way but as an old man I'd have had to stop for a 15min comfort break anyway. If there had been a charge point on street where daughter lives and I'd kept my car topped to 90% at home the the 230 mile each way trips wouldn't have required any stops even with traffic congestions en route.

pgk

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

in the context of this silly thread, started by some petrol-head trying to be sensational instead of thinking seriously of the problems being caused bythe human race overload on the Earth’s resources.

And the large scale implemantation of (currently) lithium batteries, rare earth magent electric motors & high power semiconductor drive electronics will have a negligable effect on the Earth's resources ?

While electric cars may be "zero emission" at the point of use, their total life cycle pollution makes them far from "Green".

Hydrogen ? The fuel fo the future – and always will be.

Nigel B.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by not done it yet on 19/11/2020 07:18:38:

[…]

in the context of this silly thread, started by some petrol-head trying to be sensational instead of thinking seriously of the problems being caused […]

.

Is that a fair assessment of Steve’s opening question ?

[quote]

Have they really thought this through. I can understand Hybrid but pure electric. ??????.

[/quote]

MichaelG.

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

It realy p""""s me off seeing these tree hugging eco warriors driving around in their humming milk floats labeled as being "carbon neutral" What on earth do they think was used to make it? And what will be used to recycle it?

I heard a guy from the SMMT saying, if you take into account the whole process (manufacture, running and disposal), the hybrid is no more beneficial than the latest diesel and petrol vehicles.

My guess is, this latest statement is aimed at being a kick up the arse to vehicle manufacturers to put more effort into more efficient and less polluting internal combustion engines.

As has been alluded to in this thread, charging hasn't been thought through properly. No surprise there then!

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

So no prejudices then?

Oil is finite, yes we can use land to grow a substitute or grow food.

My most eco-friendly car is my 27yr old inefficient gas guzzler because many folk would have had 9 new cars with the resource consumption of their manufacture in that time – and it's great fun to drive with no concerns about sudden airbag deployments or inadvertent emergency braking or any of that modern twaddle about onboard satnav or wastfully heating seats or adjusting them with stepper motors etc and since the radio died it's been a lot quieter.

Society is wasteful and that wonlt chage until forced by lack of resources or money but at least cars are pretty efficiently recycled and that includes the potential for recovering and recycling battery components. Cobalt free lithium batteries are a reality and should it be necesary then rare-earth free motors aren't a problem.

Be fair in accepting that the internat combustion engine has been around for 100 years and improved in tech makedly from those early days. EV;s are evolving quicker with modern tech and will continue to do so

Cars are an easy target but you'ld probably save more carbon and resources if folk stopped buying new phones every year or two, stopped having wastefully huge weddings, gender reveal parties, glastonbury festivals, take away coffee and bottled water and foreign bachelor booze-ups …….

(note an article on the BBC website re the carbon footprint of 'thank you' emails)

pgk

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Cars/transport are only the half of it.

Wait 'til the gas boiler/oven is ripped off your kitchen wall/unit and the JCB digs up your garden for the heat sink

for the heat pump, all at your expense.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Maybe I've missed something here but there is no real mention of cost, my wife and I are retired and are comfortable financially etc but there is no way I could justify the cost of an electric car, £30,000 and above seems to be the price of cars and none are big enought to get one let alone two mobility scooters in, then there is the degredation of batteries over time and the cost of replacement battery packs for the vehicles. I wouldnt buy second hand because of battery life as there is no way that garages could know how much life is left accurately enough to say there are no issues. You could buy a car showing a 100% and within weeks of buying that could drop to say 85% or even die.

Martin P

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by J Hancock on 19/11/2020 09:01:15:

Cars/transport are only the half of it.

Wait 'til the gas boiler/oven is ripped off your kitchen wall/unit and the JCB digs up your garden for the heat sink

for the heat pump, all at your expense.

Gosh! You mean my air-source heat pumps have to go? Pop round to appreciate how cold the water is from my 200ft borehole….
And yes, i can leave the fallen trees to rot in my woodland rather than burn them in my woodburner…

[Anonymous]

Posted by pgk pgk on 19/11/2020 07:41:42:

Fundamental truisms are that fossil fuel needs to stop being used and people need to stop making so many (whim) car journeys……………

You mean like multiple 170 mile round trips just to see a few seals?

Andrew

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Electrification will solve all that congestion…..

pgk

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Or the true necessity of those countless millions of journeys each day by 'commuters' into the 'cities'.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 19/11/2020 09:15:24:

Posted by pgk pgk on 19/11/2020 07:41:42:

Fundamental truisms are that fossil fuel needs to stop being used and people need to stop making so many (whim) car journeys……………

You mean like multiple 170 mile round trips just to see a few seals?

Andrew

I made no pretence of being guilt free.,, indeed it is cheap leccy power that encourages me.. less than £10 for that trip and I take my own thermos and sarnies too 'cos I'm cheap as well as wasteful

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

How big are motorway service areas going to have to be?

I can put 500 miles worth of fuel in my piston-engined car and drive away in 5 minutes or so. Even if battery car ranges improve beyond 300 miles (very optimistic as of now), there'll still be huge need for recharging on long motorway journeys – technicians and consultants will still need to travel for work. If it takes 45 minutes or more to charge an electric vehicle for another 100 miles, how many charging points will the service areas need?

Still sounds like a nightmare to me.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Mick B1 on 19/11/2020 09:31:17:

How big are motorway service areas going to have to be?

I can put 500 miles worth of fuel in my piston-engined car and drive away in 5 minutes or so. Even if battery car ranges improve beyond 300 miles (very optimistic as of now), there'll still be huge need for recharging on long motorway journeys – technicians and consultants will still need to travel for work. If it takes 45 minutes or more to charge an electric vehicle for another 100 miles, how many charging points will the service areas need?

Still sounds like a nightmare to me.

Once again: Current EV's are available with 350+ mile real world range Tesla (albeit not cheap)

Tesla promise 500 mile range on the cybertruck and 600 mile range on the roadster when they come out .. again not cheap.

To top up my car by 100 mile range when its near empty isn't 45mins it's 20 mins. On the newer cheaper model3 75KWh 360 mile range (300 real world) a mere 100 mile top-up from near empty is less than 15mins. At the moment supercharger queues are a rarity UK – I've never had to queue. But that will likely change

Current cheapest tesla UK is £40K with a 50KWh 260 mile range (200+ real world) and recharge from a V3 supercharger empty to 90% is circa 20 mins.

And most folk on long journeys need comfort breaks anyway

 

Edited By pgk pgk on 19/11/2020 09:54:18

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

It must be nice to be a politician: you buy votes with impressive, ambitious promises, and then blame your minions for failing to deliver the impossible. However, moving on from ranting…

A fully-charged EV battery holds an awful lot of energy and presumably has a low enough internal resistance to release said energy frighteningly quickly – probably more quickly than a full tank of petrol can be burned, unless vapourized. There have been a few reported electric vehicle burn-ups, but what happens to the battery pack in a major smash? What precautions have to be taken by emergency services attending an EV crash?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

At these public charge points what do they cost per KWh? Can you set an amount you want and walk away for a coffee or dies the car suck up all it has capacity for?

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Posted by Kiwi Bloke on 19/11/2020 09:55:48:A fully-charged EV battery holds an awful lot of energy and presumably has a low enough internal resistance to release said energy frighteningly quickly – probably more quickly than a full tank of petrol can be burned, unless vapourized.

I wonder how many terrorist organisations are investigating this right now and how the Security services are responding?

The previously made post regarding distribution of power is probably correct. I imagine that if even half the houses on my street attempted to charge electric cars at the same time, the safety devices in the local sub-station would operate to stop the distribution cables melting.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by not done it yet on 19/11/2020 07:18:38:

Jeff,

Snip

You would be better using up-to-date examples, not early models for any arguments – which would mean your current post would be totally out-dated – which it is, in the context of this silly thread, started by some petrol-head trying to be sensational instead of thinking seriously of the problems being caused bythe human race overload on the Earth’s resources.

Hi, NDIY, I thought that we were all engineers of one kind or another, so why slag off someone's reasonable question as being a silly thread? I think it is a perfectly valid point to think about.

As engineers I thought the discussion would be more towards expressing solutions to the pending problems to the climate changes and which, will be a diminishing supply of oil resources in the long term and finding alternative energy resources. History has proved that as a human race together, we can improve and advance our lives in every respect, OK, there's been a number of mistakes along the way and some have missed the boat, but who in their right mind would want to go back to the stone age? I have no doubt that given time all the energy problems about electric vehicles will be solved to an acceptable level for the majority and improvements will most likely be found over the next generation or two, and for all the best will in the world, poverty will never entirety cease.

Myself, I don't think I'll have to worry about having to buy and charge an electric car and I may not even be here when the sale ban of ICE's comes into force, not that I'm planning to move on any time soon, but I don't drive even half the miles I use to and it is likely to be less in 9 years time.

Regards Nick.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Kiwi Bloke on 19/11/2020 09:55:48:

It must be nice to be a politician: you buy votes with impressive, ambitious promises, and then blame your minions for failing to deliver the impossible. However, moving on from ranting…

A fully-charged EV battery holds an awful lot of energy and presumably has a low enough internal resistance to release said energy frighteningly quickly – probably more quickly than a full tank of petrol can be burned, unless vapourized. There have been a few reported electric vehicle burn-ups, but what happens to the battery pack in a major smash? What precautions have to be taken by emergency services attending an EV crash?

I don't want to monopolise here but:

Damaged batteries are a worry since inevitably car accidents happen. Batterie have been know to grumble away internally and then runaway soem days later. The Netherlands have facilities for duming whole EV cars ina large tank of water. Many other places just dump them in a spare field for a week or two if they look as though battery damage may have occurred. Reported sponanteous fires have occurred.. very rare and likely overall less hazard than from accidents and petrol fires.

Bazyle: At these public charge points what do they cost per KWh? Can you set an amount you want and walk away for a coffee or dies the car suck up all it has capacity for?

The car determines the charge rate it can accept and monitors fluctuations in case they indicate cable/charger damage. You set how much recharge you want – again in-car. Cost is highly variable on public chargers. Many slow ones are provided free by supermarkets – but so slow as to be hopeless or the newere EV's. Tesla charges 25-27p/KWh on their system (only tesla owners and autodebitted from your a/c). Most chargers cost circa 30-35p per KWh and again prices can be reduced by 'membership' of charger groups The most expensive are the new Ionity chargers @ an absurd price in excess of 70p/KWh BUT they are rated at 350KW for cars that can pull that level (very few yet) and there are agreements for much cheaper rates on their system when buying new EV's from certain manufacturers. Equally one has to accept the costs of putting the infrastructure in place and maintaining it and how mcuh gov grants towards it. Ecotricity chargers for instance were plastered all over the place with gov grants but the network is so badly maintained as to be a lottery if you need it.

Undoubtedly the cheapest charge is from a home system via a smart meter and a supplier that promotes EV power use. Over on tesla forums there are folk charging for 5p/KWh for several hours overnight. On a model3 home charging at 7KW (=30 miles an hour) that works out at just over 1p/mile. My home rate (out in the sticks where SMETS doesn;t work) I pay 16p/KW = £16 full charge for 300miles summer range in my 2yr old car.

You can google ZAPMAP and look up all UK chargers , speeds and price on the map and when they were last used and functional. In practical usage you never want to be reliant on less than 50KW speeds unless on an overnight stop at a hotel.

There is a lot wrong with the current systems but it is improving and no reason why it can't be sorted within 9yrs wth the will to do so.

pgk

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